Printable View
Ok, as diff said in another thread, Video games have terrible stories. Personally I don't see movies doing that much better these days, but whatever.
Many feel that if Video Games want to be considered an art form, game designers need to step it up in the plot and story department.
What do you think can be done to improve overall story telling in games? What do you want to see more of, and less of?
DISCUSS! :link:
More debauchery
More Cyrax.
AJ and I were talking about this just the other day.
I'm actually a bit surprised by how little debauchery is found in games. Japan produces some of the most fucked up shit ever. You'd think that would spill over into a few games.
Who isAJ?
You and Angelina Jolie?Quote:
Originally Posted by sleeveboy
lol. I forgot
And Smoke.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diff-chan
Characters, setting and plots that aren't just inspired by other media. Games are so busy trying to imitate movies and anime and comics that they have no actual, tangible connection to reality. More often than not, videogame characters come off as convincingly as a sex scene written by a virgin.
Good point.Quote:
Originally Posted by buttcheeks
Games that try to imitate anime are horseshit. That's like a kid trying to learn basketball by imitating a retard.
Games that get novels based off their stories have to be good.
http://videogamevault.com/reviews/xbox/halo/boxshot.jpg
Don't let the Japanese write them.Quote:
Originally Posted by buttcheeks
Games need their own fully developed characters, instead of just one dimensional caricatures or stereotypes playing lead roles.
Yes, yes, Japan sucks and all that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nash
BUT, if we were to let Japan write one, out of the kindness of our hearts, I think they need to get some new people to do so.
Japanese plots make you wonder if anyone older than 14 plays games in Japan. Anime and Japanese games have the same plots over and over again. Most of them boil down to simple little fables about team work and believing in each other.
That shit is old and tired. What if we did that with sci-fi shows? What if every science fiction show was just Kirk's ST but with a different cast playing the same roles? It would suck.
This is true. Some games have cast that could fit right in on an old GIJoe episode.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy
Ermac >>>>>>> SmokeQuote:
Originally Posted by buttcheeks
More cut scenes.
only if they have tittums in them.
Fear Effect had lesbians and stuff..More of that.
To me, what really seems like the problem is that you have video games which, as a medium, is trying to use the story telling devices of literature and cinema. These fail in a video game setting because most of the time it removes the player from the game. Atleast, thats the core problem. The writing is just terrible, and the excuses that some developers give are just pathetic. Even if the writing improved though, the problem of implimentation still presents a problem.
Yes, the problem of the monolog cut scene, where they give long speeches for this and that.
But how exactly do you get around that if you want to tell a story with any kind of depth?
Like say someone wanted to make an rpg that explores the concept of how the “devil” character is usually is anti instrumentalism, and you give the hero a choice between being an instrument of society, or being his own person.
How would you tell that story without monologs? And how do you connect that story to our day to day lives where our own decisions fall in between doing what is right for our self and doing what is right for everyone, without monologs?
How do we communicate the complicated and abstract, and YET leave the player immersed in the gaming world?
Compared to the 300 different World War 2 stories or the wannabe Splinter Cell rip offs.Quote:
Originally Posted by buttcheeks
Shit storytelling in games is a worldwide problem. Atleast the Japanese try.
The studios should just hire real writers instead of some designer who worries about the story on the side. You can hate Advent Rising all you want but the potential of a good story was actually in that game.
There is a simple solution...hire some REAL writers to write the shit, not the game designers themselves. A few companies have done it, but not very often.
I don't play those games.Quote:
Originally Posted by avatar
It's silly to think that better stories would make video games more of an art form. Games are too varied in their execution to make such an assertion. The notion of what a "game" is has to be examined, and whether there is an artful way to conceive it or not. I can't understand saying games with stories are art, or even yet, only games with good stories are art.
I will agree that the general level of writing found in video games, whether it pertains to a story or not, is typically dismal. Improving that would go a long way in "classing" up a project.
I don't think anyone made the clear cut assertion that story = art, only that a good one would help validate the claim of them being art. Meaning if video games can recreate all other forms of art (visual, entertainment, written, etc) it really really would be art.
lets say a game did have a really deep and interesting story....and it took forever to play through because of this. would you still want to spend/waste your time playing it? + what kind of games do you think need better stories, rpg's? or do you think action games and shooters could use better stories?
didn't someone make a thread on those....uh....i forget what they're called....games like snatcher? i'd like to see more those those. games where your actions mean something and can take the story you're reading/playing through in a different direction.
Deus Ex has a really deep and interesting story.
I mean, yea it does a lot of what has been done before, but its well-paced and has great characters. And terrific writing. And it doesn't try to start talking about the nature of Odin and how the church is corrupt and how the girl in your party had a house that was burned down by the evil villain and she had to watch while her mom was in it and how that ties into your quest to capture the MacGuffin so you can restore the delicate balance of the Earth.
I was just going to bring up Advent Rising. The story in that game was actually really good. It's too bad we won't be seeing the rest of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by avatar
I picked this up for the PS2 for a cool $5 the other day, based on what I read in your thread, and I must say that I'm enjoying it greatly. The story is incredibly deep, and I like how one's choices and actions actually change its outcome. The main character is a bit too monotone, for my tastes, but it's a great game overall.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diff-chan
Bleh, I'm so sick of the world being rescued by teenagers with amnesia. I agree that real writers should handle the stories though.Quote:
Originally Posted by avatar
I'll rather take a story then no story or a story that only there to explain why your killing marines/terroists/aliens/etc...
bleh, that won't fix anything. Which real writers? The ones who write those garbage fantasy books that all rip off the same two guys? People who write romance novels? VCR instructions? Newsweek?Quote:
Originally Posted by Melf
There are plenty of "real writers" I don't want anywhere near my games.
just talking out my butt here, but maybe you don't like those themes, and there is little to be done to make you enjoy them. Perhaps?Quote:
Originally Posted by Diff-chan
Please tell me this is true. I remember hearing the same about Indigo Prophecy and that story was nothing but a shitty ass rehash of the Matrix (which really isn't that good anyway).Quote:
Originally Posted by avatar
It's not that you have to improve stories, it's that you have to improve how the player receives the story. Video game stories aren't that much more cliche or fucking dumb than movies or novels.
Hardly anyone in World of Warcraft knows what the fuck is going on or why they have to do what they do in the game, but they do it, and 7 million players are doing it for stupid amounts of hours everyday. You show a player an incredible item upgrade, you show them how to get it, and they'll do it. They don't give a fuck if Richard K. Vaelestrasz is guarding the item or why, but they can read quest logs and game context if they really care to know.
This is what a lot of games don't understand. Players generally don't give a fuck about the story. We didn't need one to like Mario or Street Fighter and want to beat it. Put in a simple backstory and make it completely optional to the player whether or not they want to know the story. Give the player an objective and a simple reason to want to do the objective, and they'll do it.
Aeris dying didn't make anyone want to continue the game to kill the bad guy as much as just levelling your character up to ridiculous numbers, seeing the world and the addiction that goes with that.
The stories in most Japanese games are no less generic than those in most American games. Like it was mentioned earlier, the problem is regionless.Quote:
Originally Posted by avatar
I'd assume that you'd have to develop the position, just like every other one involved in games. Just as the industry doesn't get its artists from fan art contests, I'd assume they wouldn't use people who write VCR instructions to pen RPGs.Quote:
Originally Posted by buttcheeks
who plays rpgs to level?
thats gay.
no one really cares. You people need to learn to take a joke.Quote:
Originally Posted by Melf
This is the perfect example because it's one of the very few games that actually had a lot of research and time put into its writing. Most publishers probably think this area is a waste of money and so all the budget goes to other aspects.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diff-chan
If you have quality writers and publishers let them do their vision(like Tornquist and the Longest Journey series) then you end up with good video game stories. I think it's that simple.
Yeah the story was solid. Solid. DOn't go in expecting a revealtion but overal the story was the finest part of the game. Some parts really felt epic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Videodrone
I don't think a game has to be of excess length (to the point one would consider the time spend being a waste) to have a deep and interesting story. Games like the MGS series and Killer 7 do a fine job telling deep and interesting stories and do not become overly extensive (8-15 hours).Quote:
Originally Posted by rama
Here's what David Jaffe has to say about video game stories:
http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3152251
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nash
I don't even know where he's going with that. Maybe it's because I'm tired.
http://davidjaffe.typepad.com/jaffes...7/changes.html
Hmm. Just sounds like he's pissed at busting his ass to create a canned experience for other people, one that he can't enjoy. Anyway, great gameplay can cover for a shit story. The reverse isn't true.
Advent Rising sucked in terms of story(in terms of everything else too). Potential for good story is in all games, it comes down to execution.
Real writers wont work. Or, I should say, don't matter. The real crux of the problem is that...
Writers need to work closer with designers. I get the feeling from reading post mortoms on games and reading various articles that stories, whether they are written by regular authors or an intern whos usual job function is coffee fetcher, are just tacked on and not really integrated along side the story. If story is to improve in games, then it neeeds to be a consideration from the get-go and not just an excuse to make it to the next level.
You are arguing narratology vs ludology more than improving stories(and I guess you state as much). But I still agree with you. People in WoW don't care mainly because the game isn't designed to make them care. As are most games. Like I said, story in video games is simply there to give the player an excuse to advance to the next level or what-have-you. Esspecially when the gameplay is base and derivative. MMOs though, are kind of a different beast. The story contained within them will never be as exciting or deeply touching as the stories that result from the humans interacting in that world. If someone laid out the story from begining to end of the WoW universe, it wouldn't be half as interesting as the story of a player adventuring through the world and the experiences they gain as they go through it.Quote:
Originally Posted by omfgninjas in iraq
I agree completely, and I don't think I have an answer. If I had the skills I'd be able to test out some theories I have on the idea, but as of right now they are just silly ideas. To me though, this is the direction we need to be headed.Quote:
Originally Posted by buttcheeks
Games are games first and foremost. I don't need a story to want to destroy my friend in Chess. The Knight doesnt need to hate the bishop. We are playing a game for the sake of playing a game, so I question the value of story in the context of a game. But thats not the discussion I guess.
In the end I don't think there is a clear cut answer, but working with what we have at the moment it really seems to me that it comes down to a few things.
1) Stop using other mediums as templates for story telling. It doesn't work in video games.
2) Get better writers... more creative writers. Have them work along side the game designer from the begining instead of phoning in stories.
3) Stop using stories as a shuffle tool and start integrating them into the actual game design. Is my character sad? Make him less effective in battle...(bad example maybe, I dont think anyone would enjoy that game, but you get the point.).
Thats how I feel about it anyway.
As has been said, hire quality writers.
But for the most part, you don't need great writing for video games. You can enjoy the story of the LOTR movie, then play the LOTR game. Look at the two as a whole part of the experience, and don't expect the vg to do it all. It's not easy to make movies interactive, either - remember that TV show where you would watch the show while shooting the bad guys?
What a shame that their are aspect of his job that he doesn't like... :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Nash
The only story video games will ever need is "Terrorist organization 'Crank Head' has captured the President's daughter. Infiltrate 'Crank Head' and shoot the core before the world asplode!".
Playing video games for the story is like reading Playboy for the articles.
IBTNQuote:
Originally Posted by Cheebs
Playboy does have some damn good articles.
Games would be worth playing for the story if the story was good. Like I said I think Deus Ex's story is great, and it makes the game a zillion times better. There are even fake novels in there that are good enough to be printed. I think its definitely worth playing, even if you dont like FPS or RPG games, to see what they did with the story.
So to say, "games aren't worth playing for the story" is fallacious reasoning.
No, it's dead-on. No story can make-up for shitty gameplay, so saying that a game can be worth playing solely for the story is the fallacious side of the argument.
What was your opinion of Snatcher?Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshi
I seem to remember you liking it. A lot of people did.
in spite of the fact that it had the worst gameplay imaginable. Everyone always said, "but the story's so good!".
Going back even further, do we have any geezers that played Infocom?
Yes, games can get by on story alone. Niche games like Snatcher. Niche games can also get by on a fishing controller like Sega Marine fishing. Obviously most games don't need a fishing controller. Most games don't need a story either.
Story is just one of those things that you could build a game on if you wanted to, but the majority of games just plain don't need. Thus, I feel no need to give a major shot in the arm to the craft of video game story telling.
I didn't play Infocom, but I do (or at least did the last time I played) Snatcher. I don't think its gameplay is any worse than something like King's Quest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diff-chan
I don't know why there's such resistance to pure games and interactive stories co-existing. Sometimes I feel like playing games like Unreal Tournament or Super Mario Bros. and sometimes I feel like playing games like Dreamfall or Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.
I thought this was so obvious asto not be worth mentioning. But yea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheebs
Well, lots of games do engage in much storytelling, from all the RPGs down to some action and some stealth games, and its almost universally bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheebs
So yes, those videogames that do engage in story telling need a shot in the arm.
Because guys like Cheebs are jaded fucks that want to pretend like its 1989 again. Except, as you and I point out, tons of story-driven adventures were on the shelves in 1989.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoZeedeater
I don't really read/hear much resistance like that. The thing I generally hear is, "Don't put story where it doesn't belong. When story is needed/desired, make it good."Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoZeedeater
captain power?Quote:
Originally Posted by RoleTroll
that show was ahead of its time. It would fit right in between stargate atlantis and BSG.