So, if Bush were to sell Stinger Missiles to al-Queda elements you'd have no problem with that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Biff_Pocoroba
Hmm..
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So, if Bush were to sell Stinger Missiles to al-Queda elements you'd have no problem with that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Biff_Pocoroba
Hmm..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omni
Oh cool another me to assnut.
yes I can.
The only way we as a nation are every going to have equal rights is to have everyone pay a flat tax. It should be somewhat lower than the middle class pays right now. This can be accomplished by reducing government spending on the top level and making a more conserted effort to increase jobs and pay rates for the lower class.
PS. Go to sleep
Those are arguments based on semantics, because Bush was speaking in the context of neutralizing Al Qaeda's operational capability and Plume's name couldn't possibly have been "leaked" by anyone unless Wilson had already done so to the press (which he did in a sloppy attempt to discredit Bush). There's far more evidence that Hillary had Vincent Foster murdered, if you want to go down that road.Quote:
Originally Posted by Melf
Quote:
Originally Posted by g0zen
He did (Bush Sr)
Of course I do, but that's not going to change the fact the Iran fly's F-15's. WE sell weapons, we sell food. It's a bitch of a life we live.
Quick, somebody call Dan Rather, oh, wait....Quote:
Originally Posted by SpoDaddy
Equal rights? That was a bad answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Biff_Pocoroba
I am.Quote:
Originally Posted by Biff_Pocoroba
Okay, couple of things:Quote:
Originally Posted by Biff_Pocoroba
1.) The Byzantines are not Western.
2.) The state-on-state violence between Byzantium and the Ottoman Empire cannot be tied to the ideology of al-Queda or the global jihad movement. In fact, the version of Islam preached in the Empire is still considered the most moderate and tolerant towards non-Muslims.
3.) Omitted from the article is how Byzantium's OTHER biggest enemy other than the Ottomans was Western Christendom, who considered the Orthodox Church as much a heresy as Islam.
My point is Jihads have been a part of Muslim history for 2000 years. They just found a new enemy (I know you knew that, you stinker you)
Doublethink in action folks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Biff_Pocoroba
1984 reference aside.
You can't ascertain who's right and wrong by who sells weapons to whom.
We (the US) sold the Nazi's weapons in both WW'S, does that make us part of the atrocities that took place in Germany?
AQ was at one time the enemy of our enemy......
It's not as simple as that. The concept of 'jihad' (struggle) has been part of Islam since the time of the Prophet and the Rightly Guided Caliphs. What has changed is how that struggle is intrepreted; whether it's the inner struggle a Muslim confronts in day-to-day life, self-defense from an aggressor, or the forceful conversion or killing of all non-Muslims. It has been intrepreted and reinterpreted numerous times, and the jury is still out on which way is most 'right'. The fact is that most practicing Muslims don't obsess over jihad, they are more concerned with following the five tenets of their faith. The radical anti-modern, anti-western view of violent jihad is expressed by a minority of the minority.Quote:
Originally Posted by Biff_Pocoroba
That's one hell of a minority Gozen, wow.
i overheard on talk radio today (no, not fox) a coverted follower of Islam state in no simple way that the Koran tells Muslims to kill infidels 180 times.
Also the problem is the under educated majority are easy to lead.
Thanks for the debate Gozen, Melf, and Diff, the woman is calling me to bed, long day tomorrow. We can continue this at work.
Be safe
Omni and Firstblood, spend more time coming up with your own ideas, me to arguments just piss people off.
Gozen: Wilson absolutely left a gaping power vaccum in Germany; the Weimar Republic proved to be impotent and Wilson did nothing substantive to stop France and Britain from raping Germany financially after the war. He left the League of Nations to it's own devices and public discontentment with Wilson's failed economic programs in Germany gave Hitler all the ammunition he needed to take power. I'm not arguing that Wilson built the Nazis, other than according to the distorted logic that Reagan built Al Qaeda. To suggest either is silly, especially considering they bookend FDR (the most heinous president of the 20th century).
Also, you're completely wrong about the rise of Jihadism. Read a history book and pay special attention to the parts about the Crusades and then the parts about Thomas Jefferson.
FDR for the win! He sucked ass. Followed very closely by Clinton and Bush Sr.
And you can add Lincoln to the list of presidents to benefit off wars. He was an asshole.
In of a religion with over 1.4 billion adherents, not really.Quote:
Originally Posted by Biff_Pocoroba
I've read the Quran and I don't remember it saying that, even in the sword verses, to kill an infidel '180 times'. Also, the Quran has many conflicting themes in it (like all Abrahamic religious texts), and in parts it stresses tolerance for instance:Quote:
Originally Posted by Biff_Pocoroba
"Exempt those who join a people with whom you have concluded a peace treaty, and those who come to you with hearts unwilling to fight you, nor to fight their relatives. Had God willed, he could have placed them in power over you and they would have made war on you. Therefore, if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then God gives you no way to go against them." (4:90)
No moreso than in America.Quote:
Originally Posted by Biff_Pocoroba
Spo, so he was referring to the entire organization, and not the man who is the face of modern terrorism? I doubt that, considering the photo op that Saddam's capture was turned into.
IIRC, he did so because Congress voted to stay out of the league, which effectively neutered it.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpoDaddy
Gozen comparing America to the Middle East in terms of education is pretty strawman, I am surprised you would post that garbage.
Bottom Line: The Koran and the Bible were written by man, and man has inherant flaws.
"Exempt those who join a people with whom you have concluded a peace treaty, and those who come to you with hearts unwilling to fight you, nor to fight their relatives. Had God willed, he could have placed them in power over you and they would have made war on you. Therefore, if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then God gives you no way to go against them." (4:90)
So it's basically saying "As long as whitey offers peace, do it. Because I, the big Mo, could have let them win, it's okay to spare their lives?"
Except that Reagan clearly did, and the facts bear that out.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpoDaddy
Actually, I'm right. You see, I've studied the history and more importantly the history of Islamic extremism. I have the facts, you clearly don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpoDaddy
Gozen, hate to say this, you're wrong. Muslims have had more religious wars than Christianity and that's hard to do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melf
He was referring to what had to be done to prevent Al Qaeda from launching future attacks on America, pointing out that Al Qaeda was far bigger than one person. Obviously he'd love to catch Bin Laden, he never said he wasn't after Bin Laden, he said neutralizing Al Qaeda was more important than catching Bin Laden.
He didn't need Congressional consent to negotiate with France and Britain; he was focused more on preventing future wars than protecting Germany (which is ironic in hindsight). I can't blame Wilson for that, nobody could have foreseen Hitler coming along and Germany did instigate WWI. Congress voted to stay out of the League because moronic isolationism had taken hold after the trench warfare of WWI.Quote:
Originally Posted by Melf
You bringing up education in the debate at all was pretty strawman and outside the point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Biff_Pocoroba
Again, what does that have to do with what we're talking about?Quote:
Originally Posted by Biff_Pocoroba
The point is that the Quran isn't the tome anymore about 'death to the infidel' than the Bible like you and SpoDaddy would have people believe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Biff_Pocoroba
Actually, no they haven't. They've had just about as many religious wars between themselves and with others as Christians have. I challenge you to prove otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Biff_Pocoroba
So you're suggesting that the US do no business with or ally with any Islamic nation, lest we built another Al Qaeda?Quote:
Originally Posted by g0zen
You obviously haven't studied the history if you think Jihadism against the West started in the 1980's. If you have the "facts" that prove your case, explain the Crusades and Tripoli declaring holy war on America in 1801.Quote:
Originally Posted by g0zen
I found the link:
Here you go Gozen, chew on this and get back to me in the AM
http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevaja...errorist2.html
Quote:
Islam - Terrorism, Inc. - Part II
One of the greatest concerns of all civilized cultures is the alarming incidence of violent crimes in today's world. Many governments of the world are analyzing the suitability of violence in movies, books and TV programs for younger audiences. In countries like the USA, even Music CDs are labelled with warnings if they contain violent content in them. Parents and administrators have come together and made many laws to protect their children from the growing trend of violent crime. It has been scientifically proven that prolonged exposure to intensely violent scenes and literature impacts children in a very adverse way. The Criminal Justice System admits, that most convicted criminals who have committed extremely violent crimes against society, were subjected to some form of violent propoganda or behaviour in their childhood and/or adolescence.
Muslims all over the world have been known to point their fingers at Western society and comment on how degenerate westerners have no sense of family, and that as a consequence, crime, immorality and violence are rampant all over the West. The implication is that Western society is ridden with the consequences of their "descadent and immoral" liberality and irreligious attitude.
The truth is something completely different. The fact is that the highest incidences of violent crimes such as murder, rape, child molestation, dismemberment and armed robbery happen in Islamic countries. In Non-Islamic countries, wherever terrorist and subversive activities take place, one is sure to find the presence of Muslims.
This pattern is so obvious that it leads one to wonder what exactly is it that makes Muslims so viciously engaged in violent crimes against the rest of humanity. Why are all terrorist activities that target innocent Non-Muslim victims always abetted by Muslim terrorists? What is it that makes the Muslim mind so subject to criminality and the display of such violent tendencies right from his/her childhood days?
The answer lies in the systematic brainwashing that Muslims are subjected to since birth. The majority of the Non-Islamic world has deluded itself into believing that the principles of Islam are tolerant in nature. This misconception is heightened when people think that the fault lies with only a handful of misguided Muslims who are not adhering to Islamic principles and hence indulge in terrorism. It is time for the entire world to realise that Islam by its very nature and through its essential principles openly supports, encourages and propogates Terrorism of the worst kind. Therefore the Islamic terrorist is in fact the most devout Muslim, because he is following exactly what Islam teaches through the Divine Koran. It is this very Koran which is considered by Muslims to be the holy word of their Allah himself. The Koran functions as the central terrorist manual that urges them to slaughter, rape, torture,pillage, mutilate and molest all Non-Muslims.
The Muslim is exhorted by their GOD to kill, mutilate, molest, rape and steal. This repetitive conditioning of the mind is performed by indoctrinating the Koranic Surahs in every Muslim child at Madarsas (Islamic schools). The Muslim child daily memorizes the Koranic Surahs which exhort him/her to murder, violence, hatred and crime against every Non-Muslim. The Muslim child learns to hate Non-Muslims, before he loses his first tooth. The doctrines that are forced down his throat are so deeply embedded in the child's mind, that he cannot view the world in any other perspective except as a composition of Muslims and Kafirs (Infidel). It is also made clear to the child that ALL Kafirs (Non-Muslims) are evil by their very nature and that it is every Muslim's moral and religious duty to either convert all the Kafirs to Islam by force or Kill each and every one of them.
Imagine being forced to watch the most violent scenes imaginable, day in and day out throughout your childhood and then being told by your elders that all that violence is Allah's will. Imagine being told that to be a good Muslim, you MUST commit the same violent and heinous actions as the barbaric Prophet Mohammed or else be prepared to be damned and go to hell for not performing your religious duty. Is it any wonder that in every corner of the world, terrorism is synonomous with Islam ? Any Muslim child or adult who dares to question the criminal and violent nature of the acts sanctioned by Allah and perpetrated by Mohammed, is threatened with the direst consequences. Any Muslim daring to question the authority of the Koran is immediately silenced by force. Therefore it is hardly surprising that all Muslims grow up to become direct or indirect supporters of Terrorism and Violent Crime against Non-Muslims (And many times against other Muslims as well). Intolerance, Hatred, Violence, Fundamentalism, Fascism and Ignorance are inculcated into every Muslim's child's head before he can even pronounce the alphabet.
To get an idea of what kind of conditioning the Muslim mind undergoes, one need only open the Koran. Every chapter is brimming over with hatred, ruthlessness, cruelty and the sort of invective that would make the Ku Klux Klan shake in their shoes. Since the verses espousing violence in the Koran are so numerous, I can only quote a few of the most horrifying ones at a time. The exceptionally cruel, sadistic and violent nature of Mohammed's motivations and Allah's inspirations spill out through every Verse in the Koran. I will let the words speak for themselves:
Koran 17:16-17
When we decide to destroy a population, we send a definite order to them who have the good things in life and yet transgress; so that Allah's word is proved true against them: then we destroy them utterly. How many generations have we destroyed after Noah? And enough is thy Lord to note and see the Sins of his servants
Here Allah, the God of the Muslims is clearly stating the exact method that he adopts when he commits genocide of an entire POPULATION. And why does Allah decide to destroy entire populations? Simply because they don't believe in Allah and so Allah will kill them all, to take revenge. Next Allah is indulging in an unbelievable display of conceit. He is actually BOASTING about how many generations he has destroyed after Noah. If Allah had a list of his merits, no doubt genocide of numerous generations of people would top his list. Allah enjoys watching the annhilation of thousands of Non-Muslims at the hands of his pious followers, the Muslims.
Koran 8:37
In order that Allah may seperate the impure from the pure, Put All the impure ones (Non-Muslim), one on top of the another in a Heap and cast them into Hell. They will be the ones to have lost
The "All-Merciful Allah" is now specifically instructing all "peace-loving Muslims" to heap up a mountain of corpses of the non believers. Of course, in order to do this holy task for Allah, the Muslim must first go out and attack innocent Non-Muslims and massacre them so that Allah's wishes are fulfilled. Allah seems to have an inexhaustible thirst for the blood of innocents. Note that the reason given to massacre non-believers is that "Allah may seperate the Impure from the Pure". It has nothing to do with self-defense or protection as Muslims try to argue. The explicit purpose for this heinous crime is so that Allah can easily differentiate between the Muslims and Non-Muslims. This way it becomes a lot easier for Allah and his angelic helpers to dump the heaps of murdered Non-Muslims into Hellfire.
Koran 21:11
How many were the populations we utterly destroyed because of their inequities, setting up in their place other peoples
Again Allah is boasting about his amazing exploits such as genocide and displacement of innocent people. The justification for this crime is that these innocent people had "inequities". Apparently any community which is not Muslim is full of inequities by Islamic definition and therefore fair game for all pious Muslims to massacre and plunder.
Koran 2:8-10
In their (Non-Muslims) hearts is a disease; and Allah has increased their disease and grievous is the penalty they will incur, because they are false.
So Allah not only exhorts Muslims to kill all the non-believers, he also strikes down the surviving ones with disease and pain. Any good Muslim must surely carry out their beloved Allah's word. In fact Allah's word seems to be very much in effect in today's world. This is why one sees pious, Allah-loving Muslims like Saddam Hussain nursing factories that make weapons of biological and chemical warfare. Saddam is complying perfectly with Allah's wishes to the letter when he manufactures strains of deadly viruses to be unleashed on unsuspecting non-believers like the Israelis and Americans. He has secured a place in Islamic "Jannat" (Paradise) for himself by following Allah's orders so religiously.
Koran 58:5
Those who resist Allah and His Messenger will be crumbled to dust, as were those before them: for we have already sent down Clear Signs and the Unbelievers will have a humiliating Penalty
Those who resist Allah and His Messenger" obviously refers to anyone who is not a Muslim. Therefore every Non-Muslim must be crushed to death by the holy edict of Allah. No doubt it was this very verse which must have served as a motivation for those pious Muslims who bombed the World Trade Center. Allah must have been extremely pleased to watch all those innocent Non-Muslims being crumbled to death.
Koran 44:43-50
Verily the Tree of Zaqqum will be the food of the sinful. Like molten brass it will boil in their insides, Like the boiling of scalding water Seize Ye Him and drag him into the midst of the blazing Fire Then pour over his head the penalty of Boiling Water
One shudders to imagine the kind of effects such a torture manual has on the impressionable mind of a young Muslim child. Is it any wonder that so many of them grow up into hardened criminals who possess a distorted, sadistic and perverted psyche. Repeated exposure to and encouragement of the thoughts expressed in this verse would surely inculcate violence in the very core of a child's being. This description of Hell for the Non-Muslims has been the model for every pious Muslim in the past and present. In India, Sikh Gurus were tortured to death in exactly the same fashion. They were boiled to death in a cauldron of scalding liquid. On April 20, 1998 in Udhampur, India, over 30 innocent Kashmiri Hindu men, women and children were burnt alive in exactly the horrific manner sanctioned by the "Most merciful and All-Forgiving Allah", for refusing to convert to Islam.
The above verses are only the tip of the iceberg. Any deluded Non-Muslim who thinks that Islam is the religion of peace and that it is only misguided Muslims who commit terrorism and atrocities, can pick up an English translation of the Koran from any bookstore and refer to these Verses (Surahs). If, even after reading these Surahs, you are foolhardy enough not to realise the facts that I have explained, then here is a list of Allah's plans for you. All of these punishments befit you by default if you happen to be a Non-Muslim. Even a mass murderer will eventually attain Pardise if he is Muslim, wheras any Non-Muslim, even if he happens to be a Saint is eternally damned to Hellfire by Allah's decree. In Allah's own immortal words:
Koran 2:39
Those who reject faith (Islam) and belie our signs, They shall be Companions of the Fire and abide in it.
Koran 2:89-90
The Curse of Allah is on those without faith (in Islam) Thus have they drawn wrath upon wrath on themselves and humiliating is the punishment of those who reject faith (Islam)
Koran 5:33
The Punishment for those who oppose Allah and his messenger is : Execution or Crucifixion or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides or exile from the land
Koran 9:35
On the day when Heat will be produced out of the wealth in the Fire of Hell, and with it will be branded their foreheads, their sides and their backs- "This is the treasure that ye buried for yourselves, taste ye then the treasures that ye buried."
This verse is referring to those people who don't spend their money in the way prescribed by Allah. Obviously if you happen to be a Non-Muslim, you don't spend money in the ways that the Muslim Allah prescribes, so this is the fate you are heading for. Beware All Ye Filthy Capitalists of America! This Surah's for you.
Koran 8:50
If you could see when the angels take the souls of the Unbelievers at death. How they smite their faces and backs saying "Taste the penalty of the blazing Fire"
Even the angels will be doing Allah's dirty work for him. The Merciful Allah does not discriminate among his Muslim followers. Everyone starting from the Muslim Bum to the Angel gets a chance to maim, mutilate and kill Non-Believers. Allah is truly just and Merciful!
If you do happen to pick up that copy of the Koran as I mentioned, don't expect your fate to improve, unless you become a Muslim. Allah doesn't want Non-believers to understand the Koran. This is quite understandable on Allah's part, because any self-respecting human being who reads the Koran will be revolted at the violence and sadism espoused in it. Is it any wonder that Muslims don't want Non-Muslims to read or discuss any part of the Koran? They are afraid, that anyone who reads it will soon realise the true nature of Islam, which is genocide sanctioned by religion.
Here Allah explains that Non-Muslims will never be allowed to understand the Koran:
Koran 17:46-47
And we put coverings over their hearts and minds, lest they should understand the Koran, and we put deafness in their ears; when you commemorate your Lord (Allah) and Him alone in the Koran
If a Non-Muslim cannot understand the Koran, how is he/she expected to convert to Islam on their own accord? This is obviously an admission on Allah's part that people can be converted to Islam only by violent force, because he has ensured that they cannot understand it via reading the Koran. For any Non-Muslim to understand the Koran would be absolutely counterproductive to Islam. Muslims have hidden the truth from Non-Muslims for ages. It is a fact that the available English translations of the Koran do not contain many of the original Arabic Verses. Many particular verses were edited and changed by Muslims, because they were just too violent and explicitly revealed the brutal and barbaric nature of Islam.
The Koran is a psychological manual that incites hatred and violence in the reader. It was specifically designed for this very purpose, so that the Prophet Mohammed could carry on his tradition of Genocide and Terrorism, long after his death. The entire recorded history of Muslims is a testament to this fact.
Note: The Meaning of the Holy Quran by Abdullah Yusuf Ali has been used to compose this article
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I do believe this counters every point your posted Gozen, this is gonna take some digging, I look forward to your retort.
Quote:
Originally Posted by g0zen
That's complete bullshit. The Bible never calls on it's followers to murder non-Christians (the Quran calls on it's followers to murder non-muslims several times) and the New Testament tells the story of Jesus Christ (whose message was tolerance and love) while the Quran tells the story of Mohammed (whose message was violence and righteous theocratic imperialism).
In fact, try to tell me a life Hindu and his muslim partner are liars.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpoDaddy
He's cooked Spo.
http://answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/
http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate/loot.html
No, I'm saying don't do business or ally with an Islamic nation that extolls or supports an ideology that vocally preaches hatred and violence against the West. That's what Bush said, isn't it? No quarter for terrorists or the states who support them? Shame Reagan didn't feel the same way.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpoDaddy
I think, in your bumbling layman's way, you meant the first time that the Islamic Empire collided with Christendom rather than the Crusades, which were started by a papal edict to retake the Holy Land (which had been open and freely inhabited by all three Abrahamic religions under what is widely considered just Muslim rule). That was stimulated more by the investiture controversy and the desire to gain access to the wealth of the Near East rather than any great religious devotion.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpoDaddy
As for Tripoli, that again wasn't a religious conflict but an economic one. The Barbary pirates wanted an increased tribute and the US wasn't going to pay up. The Barbary Wars were not fought over religion and if you have evidence that demonstrates otherwise I'd like to see it.
He is right about the Barbary pirates spo. That was over a tribute.
Not at all. I readily admitted that there were controversial verses in the Quran, but that article is so lop-sided as to be laughable. I'm not a Muslim apologist, but I do recognize that the Quran isn't a book of hate. Notice how your little article fails to mention that the Quran forbides the killing of any innocent civilians; women, children, the sick, and the elderly. Or any of the other tolerant verses that I already talked about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Biff_Pocoroba
You're going to have to come up with more than a petty hatesheet that takes a few verses and draws sweeping conclusions about the whole religion. I could easily do the same to the bible.
Right, but the tribute was justified by the fact that we were infidels and as such had no rights before Allah.Quote:
Originally Posted by Biff_Pocoroba
According to the Koran only a follower of Allah can be considered innocent in the eyes of the faithful.Quote:
Originally Posted by g0zen
This thread got all sorts of out of control.
You got the right to suck on Deez Nutz, nigga.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpoDaddy
Before Allah, even.
It's also doomed to mediocrity if everyone thinks mainly about others. Some of the best shit ever was derived from pure selfishness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razor Ramon
You need a balance.
It's the communist in me that wants equally across the board.
I know I was just hoping that some one like Diff X or OMFG or whoever could give me some more info an insight into Fair Tax and other stuff, well tax related stuff. Now we're talking about Islam vs. America.......... Good debates though IMO (well entertaining at least) so I hope it keeps up for another shit load of pages.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razor Ramon
Specific sura please. Look, SpoDaddy, don't try to lecture on Islam because you clearly have no understanding of it. Go and read this and then hopefully you can debate intellectually on the subject.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpoDaddy
this thread is stupid.
Tell me about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razor Ramon
What I'm taking from it is that somehow the Muslims factor into us receiving a fair tax code.
So know you know more about the Koran than a Muslim and Hindu who have lived their for over 40 years? That's laughable Gozen.Quote:
Originally Posted by g0zen
You feel that sting, that's just pride fucking with you, fuck pride.
I will say that excusing all the clear attacks on infidels by the Koran is pretty lame Gozen.
I will also concede that the Old Testament is everybit as violent.
If that's what they think then apparently I do. I wouldn't be that surprised either, how many lifelong Christians do you that have little to no idea what's in the bible? Hell, Colbert showed on national television that one of the far-right evangelicals couldn't even name the ten commandments.Quote:
Originally Posted by Biff_Pocoroba
I never excused them. In fact I outright said I'm not a Muslim apologist. I'm not going to say there isn't that aspect in Islam, but what I made clear was that I'm not going to be so dense as to just outright say that it's the only aspect and that Islam is a unique 'religion of violence'.Quote:
Originally Posted by Biff_Pocoroba
This thread has gone in strange directions...
so what is fair tax? just a flat percentage? or what?
You get a hefty tax break if you excuse Islamic terrorism. But you have to donate the money to John McCain in 2008.Quote:
Originally Posted by M
it's true