Jewish center shooting in Seattle, Wa

Cnn

1 killed, 4 wounded in Jewish center shooting

Friday, July 28, 2006; Posted: 8:45 p.m. EDT (00:45 GMT)

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SEATTLE, Washington (AP) -- At least five people were shot, one of them fatally, Friday afternoon at the Jewish Federation of Greater Seattle, and one person was arrested, authorities said.

Five or six people were wounded, assistant police chief Jim Pugel said.

One person died, fire department spokeswoman Helen Fitzpatrick said.

One wounded woman was shot in the abdomen and another woman was hit in the arm, according to news accounts. Information on the others wounded was not immediately available.

A SWAT team searched the federation building, looking for any other victims, anyone hiding or any other possible shooters, police spokesman Rich Pruitt said.

Pruitt said he had no information on a motive. "Hopefully we can figure that out as this goes on," he said.

Police cordoned off several city blocks to investigate.

Several witnesses said they saw a man walk up and shoot a woman in the leg on a sidewalk near the building.

"We heard this horrible screaming on the floor above us and shots," Patti Simon said in a phone interview, her voice shaking. "We didn't know what was happening."

Simon, who sells advertising for the federation's newspaper, was working on the first floor when she heard screaming, shots and what sounded like furniture crashing on the floor above.

Simon called up to her co-workers on the second floor, but got no answer, so she called the police and fled the building.

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Cnn Link

This was about 5 blocks from where I work.

it happens time to time.

lollercaust

Sad, and also sad that it will be used to fan the flames of anti-Muslim/anti-Arab sentiments among the right wing xenophobes.

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Originally Posted by Razor Ramon

lollercaust

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Disgusting.

Well, jews as a whole have spent alot of time making enemies. Muslims/Arabs with the Israel thing, Christians with the whole Christ killing thing, Europe/America with the whole banking/owning everything thing and the Lebanese, the deadliest enemy of them all.

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Originally Posted by Diff-chan

Sad, and also sad that it will be used to fan the flames of anti-Muslim/anti-Arab sentiments among the right wing xenophobes.



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Do you have a 'jump-to-conclusions mat'? That article said nothing of the race/religion of the person arrested.

Besides, it's not like 'the right' needs this event to fan any flames. Muslims and Arabs do a fine job providing the flames on a daily basis. We will all drown in orgies of child's blood, and die from volcanoes of rage.

This is fucking horrible. Bah on empty-headed stupidity like this.

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Originally Posted by MarsKitten

Well, jews as a whole have spent alot of time making enemies. Muslims/Arabs with the Israel thing, Christians with the whole Christ killing thing, Europe/America with the whole banking/owning everything thing and the Lebanese, the deadliest enemy of them all.

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The Jews have a horrible enemy in my dad. He seems to blame just about everything on them, most significantly their ruining our "moral, Christian society."

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Originally Posted by Blaster

and die from volcanoes of rage.

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Leave my cock out of this.

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Originally Posted by Razor Ramon

lollercaust

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No, I don't think we need you around anymore. Anyone got a ban-stick handy?

I'm hoping it's a random asshole doing this rather than a Muslim thing. We don't need mid-east psycho-crap wandering into the US.

James

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Originally Posted by Diff-chan

Sad, and also sad that it will be used to fan the flames of anti-Muslim/anti-Arab sentiments among the right wing xenophobes.

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Was the gunman Arab?

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Originally Posted by MarsKitten

Christians with the whole Christ killing thing

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I don't know how serious this was meant to be, but you should realize by now the "Jews killed Jesus" thing was horseshit made up by the Catholic Church to create an anti-jewish setiment. Admitted horseshit which has long since been disavowed except by pretty much everyone but Mel Gibson.

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Originally Posted by James

I'm hoping it's a random asshole doing this rather than a Muslim thing. We don't need mid-east psycho-crap wandering into the US.

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According to FOX (no surprise, LOL, amirite?), a witness reported that he claimed to be Muslim. It honestly shouldn't be surprising.

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Originally Posted by MarsKitten

Well, jews as a whole have spent alot of time making enemies. Muslims/Arabs with the Israel thing, Christians with the whole Christ killing thing, Europe/America with the whole banking/owning everything thing and the Lebanese, the deadliest enemy of them all.

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So they deserved it?

Also, the author of that article is awful. How many sentences can you possibly end with "he/she said" in a single, 200 word article!?!?

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Originally Posted by MarkRyan

According to FOX (no surprise, LOL, amirite?), a witness reported that he claimed to be Muslim. It honestly shouldn't be surprising.

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Technically they could be right, though.

Nah, they didn't deserve it. I'm just being stupd and bitter about the whole ruined Lebanon summer trip I wanted, and the fact that the Israeli army blew up some of my inheritance this week. But hey I'm sure I deserved to lose that for having hizballah someplace near my land.

/bitter
//hopes that shooter asshole meets a very borning and legally complex end.

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Originally Posted by ChaoofNee

Technically they could be right, though.

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Oh, I was saying that it shouldn't be a surprise that the shooter is (might be) Muslim. Not a not-surprise that FOX news is reporting that.

Oh.

I guess I'm just used to reading about that on the internets.

You still want that music?

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Originally Posted by ChaoofNee

You still want that music?

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Yes!

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Originally Posted by Frogacuda

I don't know how serious this was meant to be, but you should realize by now the "Jews killed Jesus" thing was horseshit made up by the Catholic Church to create an anti-jewish setiment. Admitted horseshit which has long since been disavowed except by pretty much everyone but Mel Gibson.

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i dont know how serious this was supposed to be, but you do realize that in just about every fucking interview before the movie was released. gibson clarified that he was not in any way blaming the jews with the movie and that he death of christ was an unavoidable consequence of the sins of all mankind, not the actions of one person or one group of persons. kindly know what they fuck you are talking about kthanxbye.

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Originally Posted by MarsKitten

Nah, they didn't deserve it. I'm just being stupd and bitter about the whole ruined Lebanon summer trip I wanted

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Hey, I was thinking of going back to Israel this fall before all this shit went down, so I know how you feel.

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Originally Posted by frostwolf ex

i dont know how serious this was supposed to be, but you do realize that in just about every fucking interview before the movie was released. gibson clarified that he was not in any way blaming the jews with the movie and that he death of christ was an unavoidable consequence of the sins of all mankind, not the actions of one person or one group of persons. kindly know what they fuck you are talking about kthanxbye.

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So if I say "I don't blame George Bush for eating babies. It's not his fault." then I'm not spreading misinformation, right? He depicted an archaic propoganda-based account, and no amount of damage control on his part will change that.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4..._checklist.jpg
Really wish they'd hurry up with that last part so once I retire I can visit just before they bomb it all again.

In Israel's defense (and even though I'm jewish, know that I'm not a big supporter of Israel), Lebanon and other countries in the region should really treat terrorist groups like terrorists and not let this shit get so out-of-control. If Lebanon had been trying to stop Hezbollah and crack down on terrorism, Israel would look like real assholes right now.

Israel does some fucked up shit sometimes, but no one ever wants to be the fucking good guy to put that in perspective. If there were a Palestinian Martin Luther King we wouldn't be having the mess we have there now. But instead they have leaders that support terrorism or behave like greedy warlords, or behave otherwise unsymapthetically. If you want to damage Israel, do it it by making them look bad.

you have the true account? there are some biblial scholars that would like to talk to you.

In so far as the biblical accounts we have of the events, jesus was tried on charges of blasphemy, was turned over to the romans, and was crucified for claiming to be "king". thats the best we have from the only recorded account of the event. But the fact that the proximate players in the event were the jews and romans of the time does not confer any specific culpability to them because it was known that jesus was going to die by human hands, the point that mel gibson was making, and the basic point the catholic church has focused on for quite a long time is that the death of jesus was the fault of all of us, including his most fervent believers, he even made sure that he himself was the one "crucifying " jesus in the movie, because the sins that required jesus' death were his as well.

its not damage control, its understanding the point of the fucking movie, most people did. If we recall there was cries that the movie was going to cause all kinds of violence becuase obviously christians havent changed since the middle ages, and the passion, which we recited every single easter in church, was going to lead to all kinds of sectarian violence against jews. correct me if im wrong, but there wasnt a single case of that linked to the movie, and in fact it lead some christians to reconsider their behaviors. now, its obvious that some, hell most people who say the movie got the point of it, a few didnt, you are evidently one of them.

but, to recap, the only facts that we have on the scene are that yes, the jews turned jesus over to the romans to have him killed, and the romans actually did the killing, and that neither of those things actulaly matter because the entiere point of the story is that he died for all people's sins equally.

end of thread hijack unless you would like to misrepresent someone else.

Getting terrorists under control is so simple, just look at the successes that major powers like England, the United States (locally and in Iraq), Spain, India, Saudi Arabia, Russia, Japan, Mexico, and Israel have had Frogacuda. You're right, its just a damn shame a country like Lebanon couldn't handle a terrorist group that Israel couldn't.

Oh please, Israel couldn't get them out 20ish years ago. I'd love for them to get them this time, but if they don't, they just fucked Lebanon for another 10 years for nothing. Sadly thats where I feel this is going, I hope I'm wrong.

As for the Palestinian MLK, I'd say it was about a 50/50 shot that if one woulda come up, either the Palistinian Authority or the Israel defense force woulda killed him. The PA doesn't like threats to its power, internal or external and the IDF doesn't take kindly to Palestinian trouble makers. Both are populated by brutish thugs.

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Originally Posted by frostwolf ex

you have the true account? there are some biblial scholars that would like to talk to you.

end of thread hijack unless you would like to misrepresent someone else.

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No, I'm just talking about not siding with a very real propogandic account that was perpetuated by the catholic church for many years. Them's just facts. Shit, when my Grandfather was a kid he had to deal with a Catholic priest telling the members of his church to physically attack Jews to repay them for what they did to Jesus. Don't act like this shit didn't happen for centuries, alright?

Whatever with regard to Mel Gibson and the movie. That wasn't really important to my point. . I still say anyone who says "The Jews killed Jesus" is echoing propogandic anti-semitism.

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Originally Posted by MarsKitten

Getting terrorists under control is so simple, just look at the successes that major powers like England, the United States (locally and in Iraq), Spain, India, Saudi Arabia, Russia, Japan, Mexico, and Israel have had Frogacuda. You're right, its just a damn shame a country like Lebanon couldn't handle a terrorist group that Israel couldn't.

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Oh, I'm not saying it'd be simple, nor that they'd be entirely successful. But if they could show people that they were fighting the good fight, it would make it much harder to defend Israel's attacks on Lebanon.

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As for the Palestinian MLK, I'd say it was about a 50/50 shot that if one woulda come up, either the Palistinian Authority or the Israel defense force woulda killed him.

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Maybe. I mean we let our MLK get assisnated, but he still made a huge difference.

and you are still wrong. Look its sad what happened to your grandfather, no true representative of the catholic churce should ever encourage violence, and certainly not for an event that lies evenly on the shoulders of all men who sin(read, everyone) im well aware of the bad stuff done by the church, im willing to bet more aware than you are of the good stuff, but thats for another thread.

bottom line is nobody is ever going to undo the past bad things catholics did to jews, you move foreward to you continue a warring relationship, those are the options, and the jewish leaders seem to be getting on quite well with our leaders for quite some time. you seem to act like the many very real steps we have made for reconciliation havent happend at all, because it seems you would rather maintain a feeling of hate, cool for you, the rest of us have moved on.

we will go for this one more time, according to all accounts we ahve of the incident, yes the jews killed jesus, also, for anyone who actually understands the catholic faith, it dosent matter, we ALL killed jesus. thank you, and goodnight.

If the Catholic Church never did anything wrong they wouldn't retract doctrine or apologize for past mistakes. Shit happens. I'm not trashing Catholics, or the Church as it is today, but sometimes the mistakes of the past still linger.

Like, most people still think of the devil as having horns and goat legs, because the Church portrayed him that way so that pagans worshipping the god Pan would be seen as Satanists. And even though it's hundreds of years old propoganda it still pervades, and so does shit from anti-semetic Passion plays from the middle ages. And it's not that the Church is still endorsiong this stuff, but it has a lasting effect.

People get this shit from somewhere. You can say "well no true catholic...", but the world's full of hypocrites and assholes and I can still talk about where this shit comes from.

well, actually you were trashing a catholic, and by proxie every catholic who watched the passion, found it moving and uplifting, commited NO acts of violence or retribution at all, and came out with a feeling, fleeting though it may have been for many, that they could be a better person knowing what was done for them. Mars was making a joking statement, and you went too seriously for it, it happens, i did it all the time and still occasionally do it, but as we went on it was revealed more and more that you were meaning some pretty heavy malice for catholics, all of us, not just the yahoos who dont fully understand their faith, like chao's dad, but all of us who go by the only accounts existant of the death of jesus. I remember vaguely having a very similar discussion with sleeveboy a while ago when the movie came out, he basicly said the movie should be censored because it could lead to violence agianst the jews,and thats pretty much what you have said as well. there isnt much more that can be really done with this, there will always be feelings of spite to people based on past grievances, because people would rather treasure the hate of people who are long gone than move on, its sad. but now, the thread hijack is done, im out.

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Originally Posted by frostwolf ex

I remember vaguely having a very similar discussion with sleeveboy a while ago when the movie came out, he basicly said the movie should be censored because it could lead to violence agianst the jews,and thats pretty much what you have said as well.

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No, I didn't.

P.S.: Please use LINE BREAKS.

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Originally Posted by Frogacuda

People get this shit from somewhere. You can say "well no true catholic...", but the world's full of hypocrites and assholes and I can still talk about where this shit comes from.

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congrats, that will solve a lot, there are bad examples of every group you can think of, lets amplify those examples to be the representative ones so we can continue being justified in hating those people. kind of funny that you mentioned martin luther king earlier, he would really not approve of your mindset.

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Originally Posted by sleeveboy

No, I didn't.

P.S.: Please use LINE BREAKS.

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Originally Posted by sleeveboy

Did I say all Christians are anti-Semitic bigots? No.

I'm merely saying that Mel Gibson is at best a complete idiot and at worst a bigot for making this film. And I'm shocked that people aren't recognizing this film for what it is: an old-fashioned "blame-the-Jews" Passion play, the kind that helped perpetuate anti-Semitic violence and the blood libel.

He didn't have to make Pilate a sympathetic character, he didn't have to lay all the blame on Caiaphas, he didn't have to suggest that Pilate was pressured into killing Jesus by the Jews, he could have just made a neutral film about the Passion, but that's not what he did. So he can, you know, eat a dick.

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Originally Posted by sleeveboy

Ohhh, so if the NT says he was blameless it must be true, eh? The Gospels were written many years after Jesus's death, by four different people, with a Roman audience in mind. Given that they were trying to attract Roman converts and stay alive in the Roman Empire, do you honestly think they would blame the death of their savior on the most obvious, logical target (the, uh, Roman prefect of Judea)? No, they'd find some way to blame the Jews instead, and instead we get pearls of wisdom like John 19:10-11 "Therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin" (in the movie, the camera dwells on Caiaphas for extra special emphasis).

No sir, I don't buy it!

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Originally Posted by sleeveboy

I can't really talk much more about this movie, since I haven't seen it and don't intend to in the near future, but some of his choices strike me as irresponsible. And, in light of the popularity of bilblical literalism (look at that damn Left Behind novel series!) and anti-Semitism these days, I think that's a shame.

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there ya go, you wanted a "neutral" version of the new testament that specificly contradicted everything in the current one, remember this thread. you also predicted that it "would do for christianity what battlefield earth did for scientology, lolX2
in a related story, i miss capt veggie, the bastard only shows up like once a year.

Who give's a rats ass what group "killed Jesus"? If he'd come to Spain, we'd be talking about Spaniards as if the individuals in the group were responsible for the actions that took place in a city in the region a few thousand years ago. This debate is too stupid for words, and the only thing dumber is the people who really do think "Jews killed Jesus".

James

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Originally Posted by frostwolf

[a bunch of stuff posted by me in the Passion thread

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Hey, Frostwolf knows how to use the search bar! Now if only he could master that pesky Shift key.

Oops, I found a post you missed:

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Originally Posted by me in the Passion thread

I don't think [The Passion] should be censored. I think Gibson was foolish for making the movie the way he did.

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Ah, memories.

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Originally Posted by frostwolf ex

there ya go, you wanted a "neutral" version of the new testament that specificly contradicted everything in the current one, remember this thread.

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That's a clumsy argument, even for you.

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you also predicted that it "would do for christianity what battlefield earth did for scientology, lolX2

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Give it time. Christianity's what, 2000 years old? Xenu's older than 2000 of your human suns.

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Originally Posted by Razor Ramon

lollercaust

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Wow dude, you really suck.

Here is CNN's report

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/07/28/sea...ing/index.html

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One dead in hate-crime shooting at Jewish center
Suspect in custody; three women in critical condition

Saturday, July 29, 2006; Posted: 1:09 a.m. EDT (05:09 GMT)

A police officer motions to another officer at the scene of the shootings in downtown Seattle, Washington. (CNN) -- One person was killed and five others were wounded, three critically, in a shooting at the Jewish Federation in downtown Seattle, Washington, police said.

Police have detained a suspect who is a U.S. citizen of Pakistani descent.

"This is a crime of hate, and there's no place for that in the city of Seattle," Mayor Greg Nickels said. "This was a purposeful hateful act, as far as we know, by an individual acting alone."

The attack promoted Seattle police to increase security at Jewish temples and Islamic mosques around the city, Chief Gil Kerlikowske said.

"We are also protecting mosques, because there is always the concern of retaliatory crime or retaliatory incident," Kerlikowske said.

The suspect walked into the office building just after 4 p.m. Friday armed with a large caliber semi-automatic handgun and opened fire after asking for the manager, Kerlikowske said.

The shooter laid down his handgun and surrendered to SWAT officers about 12 minutes after the shooting began, Kerlikowske said.

The belief that it was a hate crime is based on what the suspect said to a 911 operator and supervisor when he took a phone from an office worker who called the emergency number. Kerlikowske would not say specifically what the man said.

All of the shooting victims -- including the one killed -- were women, he said. Most of the 18 people in the building were female, but there was no indication he was specifically targeting them, the chief said.

The wounded were taken to Seattle's Harborview Medical Center following the shooting, the hospital said. Three of them were in critical condition with injuries to their abdomens.

The other two victims were in satisfactory condition, the hospital said, including a 37-year-old woman who is 20 weeks pregnant. She was shot in the arm, while the other woman sustained a knee injury.

Assistant Police Chief Nick Metz said police had no specific information about any threats, but his department did issue an alert Thursday "reminding officers to be vigilant to monitor synagogues and mosques in the city."

Kerlikowske acknowledged that the suspect was a Muslim, but he did not reveal his name. He said there was no reason to believe more than one person was involved in the attack. Another law enforcement official told CNN the suspect was of Pakistani descent.

FBI Special Agent-in-Charge Laura Laughlin said the suspect was a U.S. citizen, not from Seattle.

Robert Jacobs, Pacific Northwest Regional director for the Anti-Defamation League, told CNN the group has been warning Jewish institutions to be wary and ensure they have adequate security because of the ongoing conflict in the Middle East. If they cannot, he said, it would be better for Jews "not to congregate in one location that might be an obvious site."

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Originally Posted by Razor Ramon

lollercaust

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One day ban on principle.

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Originally Posted by sleeveboy

Oops, I found a post you missed:

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saw that post, but when everything you said in the thread contradicted it, and no fewer than 3 ardent athiests agreed that you were trying to specificly censor it, it kind of got washed from having any meaning.


of topic, but who was razor before the name change? hes obviously a long time poster, but i cant put a name to the posting style.

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Originally Posted by StriderKyo

One day ban on principle.

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I call bullshit on your double standards as worse things have been said about those of Arab descent. If Razor gets a one day ban, Yoshi should get a 1 year ban.

Everyone, please remove the circumcised cocks from your mouths.

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Originally Posted by Blaster

Do you have a 'jump-to-conclusions mat'? That article said nothing of the race/religion of the person arrested.

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I went to Little Green Footballs about 2 minutes after M posted this, and they already had mentioned the guy was Pakistani, and their hate machine was already in overdrive. So while they may not need it, they will certainly use it.

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Originally Posted by Blaster

Besides, it's not like 'the right' needs this event to fan any flames. Muslims and Arabs do a fine job providing the flames on a daily basis. We will all drown in orgies of child's blood, and die from volcanoes of rage.

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I dont even know what this means. This shooter, whatever he or she is, is just one person and doesnt speak for an entire people.

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Originally Posted by frostwolf ex

well, actually you were trashing a catholic, and by proxie every catholic who watched the passion,

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I took a cheap swipe at the guy for a movie widely criticized as anti-semetic, but I backed off of that already. Just pretend I said Mel Gibson's father (a nazi sympathizer), ok? I really don't feel like arguing about the movie.

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Originally Posted by frostwolf ex

congrats, that will solve a lot, there are bad examples of every group you can think of, lets amplify those examples to be the representative ones so we can continue being justified in hating those people. kind of funny that you mentioned martin luther king earlier, he would really not approve of your mindset.

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Fuck you, asshole. Seriously. I don't hate Catholics (though I'm growing to hate one of them...), and I don't appreciate the implication. I just said that the Catholic Church is responsible for certain misinformation over the centuries. Never said I hate (or harbor any ill will at all for) Catholics for it, or the Church as it is today.

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Originally Posted by frostwolf ex

well, actually you were trashing a catholic, and by proxie every catholic who watched the passion, found it moving and uplifting, commited NO acts of violence or retribution at all, and came out with a feeling, fleeting though it may have been for many, that they could be a better person knowing what was done for them.

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What part of "Mel Gibson and his movie aren't really relevent to my point, and I'm just going to accept you point and not argue it" did you not underfuckingstand? I completely backed off of that point (and only that point) immediately, and yet you keep hammering it as if you don't need my participation to argue with me. I don't give a shit about mel gibson or his movie, but the rest of my point stands.

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Originally Posted by Frogacuda

Oh, I'm not saying it'd be simple, nor that they'd be entirely successful. But if they could show people that they were fighting the good fight, it would make it much harder to defend Israel's attacks on Lebanon.

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2 people get kidnapped and Israel goes completely batshit and wipes out over 200. These are the same people who piss and moan about the hollocaust and genocides and the like if anyone tries to deny it happened [which I'm not] or downplay it at all. Shit like this proves these motherfuckers are just as bad.

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Originally Posted by Spent

These are the same people who piss and moan about the hollocaust and genocides and the like if anyone tries to deny it happened [which I'm not] or downplay it at all. Shit like this proves these motherfuckers are just as bad.

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No, really, it doesn't. Trying to compare this to the systematic murder of 12 million men, women and children is not going to gain you any sympathizers.

I'm the first to criticize Israel for handling these situations poorly, but you make yourself look like a racist ass when you say stuff like that.

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Originally Posted by Frogacuda

No, really, it doesn't. Trying to compare this to the systematic murder of 12 million men, women and children is not going to gain you any sympathizers.

I'm the first to criticize Israel for handling these situations poorly, but you make yourself look like a racist ass when you say stuff like that.

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Really? I didn't mention a race once, I just mentioned Israel, and I didn't blame the jews once. I'm just saying, wether its 200 or 12million, its innocent lives being slaughtered. Israel can cry it's so hard done by from what happened 50 years ago all it wants, but doing shit like this today creates a lasting hate. For the record, I don't believe the jews are a a race, but rather a religion. I also don't think there should be a religious run state, so at MOST you could argue that I'm hating on Israeli government, which happens to be jews, but thats being prejudice, not racist, and I don't blame any jews, or PEOPLE for that matter in other countries for the ignorant and hypocritical bullshit that Israel is pulling. Don't pull the race card when it isn't needed kthx.

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Originally Posted by Spent

I'm just saying, weither its 200 or 12million, its innocent lives being slaughtered.

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You used the phrase "just as bad", might I remind you. Whenever anyone tries to liken someone to Hitler it comes off as a bullshit argument.

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Originally Posted by Spent

I also don't think there should be a religious run state, so at MOST you could argue that I'm hating on Israeli government,

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Agree completely with this point. And in fact I wouldn't have found your post objectionable if not for the absurd attempt to tie things to the holocaust.

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Originally Posted by Frogacuda

You used the phrase "just as bad", might I remind you. Whenever anyone tries to liken someone to Hitler it comes off as a bullshit argument.

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I DID NOT MENTION HITLER! I said that slaugthering innocents, in ANY regard, is bad no matter what the toll is. And for a country who cries and cries about the holocaust, they have proven they are just as fucking bad. Innocents are being killed right? apparetment buildings are being leveled, right? Just because it is indiscriminate doesn't mean that it's different.

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Originally Posted by Frogacuda

Agree completely with this point. And in fact I wouldn't have found your post objectionable if not for the absurd attempt to tie things to the holocaust.

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I want to clarify, I am not trying to tie it in, just saying, you can't scream and cry when your mansion is being burned down and tell the world what a tragedy it is then go and commit arson on a small cottage and claim it is a different thing.

Its not "just as fucking bad". I am horrified by what Israel is doing, it is disgusting and evil IMO, but its not "just as fucking bad" as the perpetrators (sic) of the Holocaust.

Killing 2 people is not just as bad as killing 200. There's no way to make that point. Israel's done some unjust shit. No argument from me on that point, but let's be real, here.

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Originally Posted by Frogacuda

Killing 2 people is not just as bad as killing 200. There's no way to make that point. Israel's done some unjust shit. No argument from me on that point, but let's be real, here.

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Originally Posted by Diff-chan

Its not "just as fucking bad". I am horrified by what Israel is doing, it is disgusting and evil IMO, but its not "just as fucking bad" as the perpetrators (sic) of the Holocaust.

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You're right, it isn't as bad at all [don't know what I was thinking], but it does make them look extremely hypocritical at the least. And it isn't something to be taken lightly just becasue they haven't killed millions yet.

By this logic however we can also say that in this fight Israel is definitely in the wrong, because they've killed more people. This is what we determined to be "more bad" after all.

If you had simply said that they've turned being the victim into being the opressor, I wouldn't have argued. It is somewhat hypocritical.

Here's the real nugget of hypocricy for me, though: Israel has allowed Hamas become as intergral to "Palestinian" society (and I really hate calling them Palestinians. It's bullshit that makes them sound like they're from somewhere else. I prefer "Arab Israelis") as Hezbollah is to lebanese society.

Israel is like the only country to push back its borders and 50 years later still have no intention of ever intergrating these territories into the country proper. Instead they create a paternalistic relationship with a neutered "Palestinian" government, effectively creating a country within a country (exactly what they claim Hezbollah is).

It's just so frustrating these fights have went on for so long that no one in that reigon has the want to step back and look at the big picture and realize they're all [the entire middle east] jjust driving further and further into the shit storm when all that reigon needs right now is unity.

It's kinda bullshit that Israelis talk about Palestinians being taught to hate Israel in schools. This is your country, Israel. Do something about it. They should have been intergrating Arab Israelis into society and making them proud to be Israeli (PROTIP: Putting a star of david on your flag is probably not helping). Now they have 60 years of hate to overcome and they've made things infinitely more difficult.

I've been through the West Bank, and even a bit of Gaza. I've seen Rammalah, and people living in tin shacks, and that big fence. And right on the other side of that fence is a shiny new modern Israeli city still under construction, just waiting for people to move in. The only way you're going to make the people on the other side of the fence not hate you is to welcome them into that city, you know?

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Originally Posted by Frogacuda

It's kinda bullshit that Israelis talk about Palestinians being taught to hate Israel in schools. This is your country, Israel. Do something about it. They should have been intergrating Arab Israelis into society and making them proud to be Israeli. Now they have 60 years of hate to overcome and they've made things infinitely more difficult.

I've been through the West Bank, and even a bit of Gaza. I've seen Rammalah, and people living in tin shacks, and that big fence. And right on the other side of that fence is a shiny new modern Israeli city still under construction, just waiting for people to move in. The only way you're going to make the people on the other side of the fence not hate you is to welcome them into that city, you know?

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Indeed.

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Originally Posted by StriderKyo

One day ban on principle.

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Good man, though one day is not enough.

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Originally Posted by Frogacuda

The only way you're going to make the people on the other side of the fence not hate you is to welcome them into that city, you know?

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Choice B: Kill them. The Palestinians are basically the equivalent of the illegal Mexicans coming here and killing people. The only way to fight evil is to destroy it.

I think what Razor did was laugh at dead americans, regardless of nationality that is bullshit.


Yoshi, one simply can't lump all pali's into the same boat.

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Originally Posted by Yoshi

Choice B: Kill them. The Palestinians are basically the equivalent of the illegal Mexicans coming here and killing people. The only way to fight evil is to destroy it.

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Israelis have turned 1 in 5 Lebanese homeless. Innocent children and old people have been killed and their lives have been ruined. What does that make Israel, then? Defenders of virtue and good?

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Originally Posted by Yoshi

Choice B: Kill them. The Palestinians are basically the equivalent of the illegal Mexicans coming here and killing people. The only way to fight evil is to destroy it.

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Ah, yes, why did I think of Genocide as a means to peace sooner?

It's more realistic.

The bargaining table has always worked so well. I can't imagine why we don't keep using it. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Diff-chan

Israelis have turned 1 in 5 Lebanese homeless. Innocent children and old people have been killed and their lives have been ruined. What does that make Israel, then? Defenders of virtue and good?

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By comparison, yes.

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Originally Posted by Yoshi

The bargaining table has always worked so well. I can't imagine why we don't keep using it. :rolleyes:

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Who said anything about a bargaining table? Surely not I. I'm not talking about giving them what they're asking for, I'm talking about doing what's right to make these people feel like they have something invested in the country they live in so they might not want to blow it up.

You didn't. It was a preemptive strike, because someone will go there.

People have to feel like they're part of the country they live in. You can't have peace until that's the case. The Palestinian leadership are scumbags that exploit a desperate people, and admittedly not to be bargained with. However, their participation is not needed.

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Originally Posted by Frogacuda

People have to feel like they're part of the country they live in. You can't have peace until that's the case. The Palestinian leadership are scumbags that exploit a desperate people, and admittedly not to be bargained with. However, their participation is not needed.

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100% agree here.

arabs and jews can agree on something! Personally I'd adovace that in a position in authority in both the PA or the Israeli government higher than oh say, a mayor be assassinated over night. New elections would be held and I think then we could have an honest start to the peace process. If they cannot make peace and hold it for a year, those guys are assassinated by the United States and we can try again until either Yoshi gets his genocide or I get a peaceful Palestine/Israel.

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Originally Posted by MarsKitten

arabs and jews can agree on something!

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The sad thing is, we should be agreeing on a lot of things. They're remarkably similar religions and cultures in a lot of ways. I don't really think its a war of faiths as it's often painted.

I agree that it's not a war of faiths. It's much more like protestants vs. catholics. People, as a general rule, don't like things that are different. When those things that are different also have total assholes leading them, a small dislike or even just misunderstanding can turn to hate very quickly.

Relevant, discusss
Shorter Wafa Sultan: Muslims: everyone else can express a difference of opinion and religion without blowing up something, why can't you?

Why are you watching it on YouTube when you could see that and much more TV broadcasts and transcripts straight from MEMRI.org? Seriously, people, if you want insight into what the 'man on the street' in the Arab world is thinking what better way is there other than talking to them one-on-one?

Anyway, she makes the point I have numerous times and is accepted by most of the higher level academics; that the current conflict is Islamic society coming to terms with modernity.

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Originally Posted by g0zen

that the current conflict is Islamic society coming to terms with modernity.

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couldn't that be said for any area that allowes religion and government to dance together?

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Originally Posted by g0zen

Why are you watching it on YouTube when you could see that and much more TV broadcasts and transcripts straight from MEMRI.org?

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Because I can e-mail or call any of my cousins, uncles or aunts in Lebanon and ASK them.

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Originally Posted by MarsKitten

Because I can e-mail or call any of my cousins, uncles or aunts in Lebanon and ASK them.

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call them and ask if they are hizbollah sympathizers.

Generally they're glad that Israel and Hizbollah are killing each other. One's an invading army supported by the United States the other is a terrorist group with a political front party backed by Syria and Iran as a proxy group to attack Israeli and American interests in the area.

What they're pissed about is having the fighting basicly screw their entire country. Hezbollah is using the entire country as a human shield, and Israel is not showing any restraint. Its definitely a shoot the hostage thing going on here.

At this point I think politically Hizbollah is coming out ahead. My opinion: with Israel taking most of the blame for this (even if you believe this is justified), they're creating a new generation of no-hope angry kids with access to weapons and training via Hizbollah. Unless Israel succedes in its mission of routing out Hizbollah quickly, and helping with the reconstruction; they're just creating another breeding ground for terrorists.

But nice attempt at a troll. That's my uncle, aunt and 3 cousins who just escaped from a war zone into Syria. They made it into the United States Thursday and Sunday.

1 day ban pls.

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Originally Posted by MarsKitten

At this point I think politically Hizbollah is coming out ahead. My opinion: with Israel taking most of the blame for this (even if you believe this is justified), they're creating a new generation of no-hope angry kids with access to weapons and training via Hizbollah. Unless Israel succedes in its mission of routing out Hizbollah quickly, and helping with the reconstruction; they're just creating another breeding ground for terrorists.

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This is a point that I wish the powers that be in Israel could grasp.

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Originally Posted by MarsKitten

Generally they're glad that Israel and Hizbollah are killing each other. One's an invading army supported by the United States the other is a terrorist group with a political front party backed by Syria and Iran as a proxy group to attack Israeli and American interests in the area.

What they're pissed about is having the fighting basicly screw their entire country. Hezbollah is using the entire country as a human shield, and Israel is not showing any restraint. Its definitely a shoot the hostage thing going on here.

At this point I think politically Hizbollah is coming out ahead. My opinion: with Israel taking most of the blame for this (even if you believe this is justified), they're creating a new generation of no-hope angry kids with access to weapons and training via Hizbollah. Unless Israel succedes in its mission of routing out Hizbollah quickly, and helping with the reconstruction; they're just creating another breeding ground for terrorists.

But nice attempt at a troll. That's my uncle, aunt and 3 cousins who just escaped from a war zone into Syria. They made it into the United States Thursday and Sunday.

1 day ban pls.

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Wasn't trolling, just curious. Sorry if I offended. We just got a situation here where we found out that around 5000 'danes' were on vacation in Lebanon. A big part of those are sucking the wellfare system dry and are as such not allowed to leave the country (denmark) - as they must offer themselves to the workforce here. Along the refugees a few expelled criminals also managed to seep back through. Murderers, rapist, what know I...

Not to mention the hateful mullahs/imams that suddenly felt our country was good enough to return to, although they have been preaching for our country's destruction the last year or so. Frankly I would have loved it if they stayed there to fight jihad or something.

The only good thing about letting the refugees leave Lebanon is that it helps IDF's goal; clearing the populated areas for bombing. Just my two cents. Glad your family is safe though.

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Originally Posted by Frogacuda

This is a point that I wish the powers that be in Israel could grasp.

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I don't buy this whole 'violence begets violence' theory. You can only deal with terrorists via force, negotiations are futile. I can understand Israel doesn't want to go down that route, negotiating with people whose goal is to destroy israel. And I'm not talking about the Lebanese people, I'm talking about Hamas and Hizbollah. They pulled out of Gaza and Lebanon and now they are back at square one.

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Originally Posted by dakidski

I don't buy this whole 'violence begets violence' theory. You can only deal with terrorists via force, negotiations are futile.

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Sure, if that force is executed with surgical efficiency, but in this case it's anything but. There's more collatoral damage than direct.

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Originally Posted by Frogacuda

Sure, if that force is executed with surgical efficiency, but in this case it's anything but. There's more collatoral damage than direct.

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I honestly believe the army are doing their best to avoid collateral damage, but sure, people die in conflict and the innocent suffer and pay the highest price. Let's wait and see what happens with this whole Qana deal. We still don't know if Hizbollah deliberately fired near civilians, hoping for a propaganda victory. Also, not to sound cynical but 500+ casualties in a war isn't extreme in historical context, quite contrary. Media coverage just makes it looks much worse when it brings the war into our living rooms. Also, I refuse to believe that the majority of those 500 Lebanese were civilians as opposed to Hizbollah personnel.

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Originally Posted by dakidski

I honestly believe the army are doing their best to avoid collateral damage, but sure, people die in conflict and the innocent suffer and pay the highest price.

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THis is irrelevant. If Denmark gets into a war with some country and your family gets blown the fuck up will you care that it was an "accident"? Hell no.

that is the bigger problem here, the US claims to be fighting a war of hearts and minds, but when Tommy Franks says, "we dont do body counts" or the President casually guesses we killed 20 or 30 thousand Iraqis, all we are doing is giving the "insurgents" a recruitment video. Also please realize it was likely an American bomb that killed those babies in Qana. It's a fucking joke.

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Originally Posted by Diff-chan

THis is irrelevant. If Denmark gets into a war with some country and your family gets blown the fuck up will you care that it was an "accident"? Hell no.

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I don't think its irrelevant. Israel wont gain anything by killing civilians, only Hizbollah will. I'm just saying they didn't target them on purpose. There is also the possibility that Hizbollah forced Lebanese civilians to act as a human shield. Afterall, the residents of Qana had been urged by the IDF to leave the area. But I guess in the end it won't matter, because by the time an investigation is concluded another news story will have taken the headlines.

Hizbollah on the other hand doesn't differentiate between civilians or soldiers, as long as any israeli die they are happy. This is one of the reasons they are a terrorist organisation.

And you are probably right, if my family was bombed I'd be pretty miffed and not take any excuses.

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Originally Posted by Diff-chan

Also please realize it was likely an American bomb that killed those babies in Qana. It's a fucking joke.

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I don't see it matters where the bomb was produced, I'm sure the victims don't care. Israel has the right to defend themselves and they claim rockets were fired from that position.

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Originally Posted by dakidski

I don't think its irrelevant. Israel wont gain anything by killing civilians, only Hizbollah will.

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Exactly, the point is that Israel is putting themselves in that position nevertheless. If this is really a war of hearts and minds, to convince people to drop their weapons and engage in peace (which I think it is, or at least should be), then the way to do it is not to bomb civilian buildings, kill babies and women, and say "oops". The hearts and minds they are supposedly attempting to convince won't buy that.

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Hizbollah on the other hand doesn't differentiate between civilians or soldiers, as long as any israeli die they are happy. This is one of the reasons they are a terrorist organisation.

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Honestly the flippant way in which Israel (and the US) are acting says a lot more to me than empty statements like this. It is a bit disturbing to me that these countries can invade a country, say, Iraq, kill tens and thousands of innocent civilians and when other citizens resist them, they are called "terrorists". Please don't forget that Hezbollah is a democratically elected political party (as is Hamas).

To me the word "terrorist" has been completely corrupted and co-opted by neocons. The guys that flew planes into the WTC are terrorists. The guys that blew up that train station in Bali are terrorists. The guys that blew up the train stations in Madrid and London are terrorists. Lebanese and Iraqis fighting outsider armies are not.

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I don't see it matters where the bomb was produced, I'm sure the victims don't care. Israel has the right to defend themselves and they claim rockets were fired from that position.

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The victims do care, the military-age men do care, because it looks like we are directly aiding the destruction. Israel absolutely has a right to defend herself but honestly, why is this going on? Two of their soldiers were kidnapped and they went ape shit. Then Hezbollah responded in kind. The point is if Israel really gives a shit about peace instead of levelling the whole country, they wouldnt be acting so nonchalantly about the death of Lebanese citizens.

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Originally Posted by Diff-chan

->

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http://www.the-nextlevel.com/board/s...post1063677439

took the liberty to answer there instead.

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Originally Posted by MarsKitten

Because I can e-mail or call any of my cousins, uncles or aunts in Lebanon and ASK them.

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And I said the only better thing than MEMRI was to talk directly, so go you.