The narrow set of nearly-universal human ethics is simply an evolved form of species-preservation instincts; the only thing religion has to do with them is serving as a tool for their enforcement.
The narrow set of nearly-universal human ethics is simply an evolved form of species-preservation instincts; the only thing religion has to do with them is serving as a tool for their enforcement.
That's kinda what I was getting at, sans the apparent nihilism. I wouldn't trivialize their value in preserving the things that we, as a species, deem important.Quote:
Originally Posted by LordPerrin
Instinct is compulsory behavior that does not have to be taught and cannot be chosen. Birds do not have to be taught how or when to build a nest they just do it. Spiders don't build webs for the hell off it, they are compelled to.Quote:
Originally Posted by g0zen
Children do not know how to feed themselves, they have to be shown how use a fork/spoon/chopsticks/whatever and that the food goes in their mouths not on their heads. The fact that you think "hungry = eat" and that you know how to eat a bowl Cheerios without dropping it your lap is programming, not instinct. You can actively choose not to eat which would be impossible if it were an instinct.
And sleep? You're body will eventually shut you down, but you can choose to fight the need for sleep. All night cram sessions? Late night movie binges?
Instinct is a predictable pattern a genetically programmed behaviors.
There is no precedent to believe humans function by instinct.
Same thing.Quote:
They had certainty, not faith.
That's what faith is.Quote:
I don't have 'faith' in science. I have a certainty that comes from gaining an understanding of the field and the evidence presented.
No.Quote:
Faith implies absolute knowledge
So all the hundreds of quadrillions of stars in the Milky Way and only God knows how many galaxies in the universe and this little ball of dust in the middle of nowhere is all there is? Are you serious?Quote:
Universal existence? WTF?
It's all fine well to stay focused on the here and now, but have some imagination for pete's sake.
I was going to ask an existential question here, but realized the futility of it. Conceded.Quote:
Also, don't ask my why you should be expected to believe you don't have a soul, tell me instead why you would ever think you do?
LOL!:lol: I talk to God on a regular fucking basis like you talk to someone on the street. What makes you think I haven't lost my fucking mind and I'm just enjoying the ride?Quote:
You accept all that you think you've experienced 'subjectively' with God without question. You don't apply Occam's Razor, what is more likely; that you're being routinely visited by a supreme being that no one else but you can see and communicate with or that you're suffering from some form of delusion?
*points to words under my handle* That choice of words is not accidental.
Besides I'm not the only one He talks to. I know hundreds in my church who all report the same thing. So either we're all nuts (very likely if you know these people, but I love em anyway. :D) or there is truth in what I say about communing with God.
You aren't getting an argument out of me on this. I agree with you. Frankly it still makes no sense to me. Personally, I think God is nuts anyway.Quote:
Hilarious isn't it that an omnipotent, omnipresent being has to rely on his frail creations to spread the word of his existence? Seems very ineffective.
"M'kay so lemme get this straight. You love the world so much that You send Your Son to die for us?"
"That's right."
"Depsite the fact that You know that the majority of humans are going to reject Your gift?"
"Yes."
"You're nuts Father."
"Maybe....or maybe I know something you don't."
*pregnant silence*
"Or maybe You're just nuts"
*laughter*
Yeah, yeah. Shut up, it was funny at the time.
It's valid evidence, but it's slanted. I have no use for non-objective science.Quote:
If their evidence is valid then it doesn't matter about their religion. However, it's very common to find religious nutjobs posing as scientists spouting crap. Take, for example, Michael Behe or Kent Hovind.
Heh, reminds me of...Quote:
Originally Posted by Master of 7s
You were doing well till everyone died.
I don't think the comparison is valid. Firstly, religion can never truly change unless it allows the possibility of doubt in all its assertions. Science has that, and acknowledges revolutionary shifts in its theories. To be a Christian, you've simply got to accept the divinity of Christ based on zero evidence and after you've accepted it you must not question that belief in any way, shape, or form. That's not science. Just because there have developed schisms within the dogma and doctrine of the religion isn't the same as when science is willing to concede that there isn't and there never was an aether and that relativity is the way it was and always has been, based solely on evidence through observation and testing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogacuda
But again, it's not evidence based. The stories change solely because the people who tell them change, not because they're getting any closer to the truth through better observations or valid testing methods.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogacuda
Children know damn well how to eat. When their mother presses them against their breast she doesn't have to hold open their mouth with one hand and squirt the milk in with the other (though that would be kinda hot). The baby knows instinctually how to suckle from its mother. Just because it doesn't pop out of the womb with the ability to order a big mac at the drive thru doesn't mean it isn't just as motivated by instinct as the rest of us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master of 7s
Also, there are plenty of animals that can make a decision not to eat. There have been studies done where chimps would give up food if they felt like the chimp next to them was being given something sweeter. Or if a chimp had to choose between hitting a switch that dropped food and another that opened a window to show them a potential mate on the other side, they smack the hell out of the window one. There are plenty of cases where animals are able to override one instinct for another, humans do the same.
Wrong. There's ample precedent. Look around you, see other people? Then guess what, you're seeing the product of the biological instinct to reproduce. It's not something people do just because they want to, or because of some holy book, it's written into their very being that they will want to sexually reproduce. And sure, you can fight it, but doesn't mean you still aren't drawn to do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master of 7s
Are you joking? Faith doesn't require evidence, that's why it's faith. People who have 'faith' in God don't use that as a way to acknowledge their deep empirical understanding of a divine presence, they use it as armor to prevent themselves from accepting the deep contradictions inherent in such beliefs. Evidence (or lack thereof) tells you God very likely does not exist, but your faith allows you to continue to hold that belief without good reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master of 7s
I never said I knew for sure that there was no comparable human life on other planets, but I'm not going to believe in something just because the results of it being true would be interesting. I'm compelled by the evidence, and there is just no evidence yet that points to there being any other civilizations in the observable universe. That's just the way it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master of 7s
If you realize this, then why not do the smart thing and get yourself real professional psychiatric help? It's an illness like any other, and left untreated could potentially worsen over the years. You wouldn't leave a gaping wound that had gotten infected alone like that, would you? You'd seek medical help. Well you've got a wound, and you need help.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master of 7s
Again, apply Occam's Razor; What is more likely? That out of all the world's population you and some of your fellow parishioners are chosen by a divine, omnipotent being to be contacted or that you're all suffering from some form of mental illness or self-delusion?Quote:
Originally Posted by Master of 7s
Present it then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master of 7s
Well, to play devil's advocate here, the law of statistics would say that somewhere within the universe there is another civilization out there, somewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by g0zen
True, there is statistical conjecture that is enough to compel us to look, but we've not found anything yet resembling evidence.
I thought exactly this after my last post. Ok conceded, humans have one instinct.Quote:
Originally Posted by g0zen
Faith damn well does require evidence or it doesn't grow. The only ones who use it the way you're tallking about are the ones who are afraid to or discouraged from questioning what they believe. I've been a Christian for 13 years and have had plenty of time to question everything. I finally just decided to accept what I and hundreds of millions of other know to be truth.Quote:
Are you joking? Faith doesn't require evidence, that's why it's faith. People who have 'faith' in God don't use that as a way to acknowledge their deep empirical understanding of a divine presence, they use it as armor to prevent themselves from accepting the deep contradictions inherent in such beliefs. Evidence (or lack thereof) tells you God very likely does not exist, but your faith allows you to continue to hold that belief without good reasons.
If thing wasn't real, I wouldn't be doing it.
Blech, so dry and literalist.Quote:
I never said I knew for sure that there was no comparable human life on other planets, but I'm not going to believe in something just because the results of it being true would be interesting. I'm compelled by the evidence, and there is just no evidence yet that points to there being any other civilizations in the observable universe. That's just the way it is.
I don't define insanity the same way you do. You see it as a deviation from normal behavior, which is a relative concept anyway, and a distorted sense of reality.Quote:
If you realize this, then why not do the smart thing and get yourself real professional psychiatric help? It's an illness like any other, and left untreated could potentially worsen over the years. You wouldn't leave a gaping wound that had gotten infected alone like that, would you? You'd seek medical help. Well you've got a wound, and you need help.
I see insanity as an elevated sense of reality through spiritual awakening, growth and enlightenment. Spiritual people behave differently than the average person, regardless of culture.
When I say I've lost my mind, I mean just that. I've lost my mindfulness of the world and it's ways.
Hmm....that out a population of 6 billion more than 1/3 of those all believe more or less the same thing? Sounds like you need to apply the razor yourself.Quote:
Again, apply Occam's Razor; What is more likely? That out of all the world's population you and some of your fellow parishioners are chosen by a divine, omnipotent being to be contacted or that you're all suffering from some form of mental illness or self-delusion?
What's more likely? That 2 billion of us are suffering from the exact same mental illness or that we know something you don't.
Hell, why limit it to just Christianity? 98% of the world believes in God in some form or another. Applying the razor makes it seem pretty likely that you're the mentally ill one here.
Here.Quote:
Present it then.
I want to reply to some of the arguments in this thread, but there is too much to wade through with all this abuse of the quote feature. Let's try summarizing more and having no more than three quotes per post.
It's useful when done in moderation, but too much of it makes the arguments harder to follow and gives the appearance of quibbling.