The only other animal that kills for fun is cats. Chimpanzee's fight over territory and mates and hierarchy. Cats just kill things for amusement.
The only other animal that kills for fun is cats. Chimpanzee's fight over territory and mates and hierarchy. Cats just kill things for amusement.
You're right. Remembering the way my cat would always torture a mouse by catching it, letting it go, then catching it again reminds me of a National Geographic episode I watched that showed some orcas doing some really fucked up shit to a half-dead seal before they got around to killing it.
Belly flop FTW! SPLOOSH!
If based solely on that, then yes. But that's not at all what we use to denote common ancestry, for that we have transitional fossils.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master of 7s
Purely semantical distinction. Which you support only with a bunch of fluff that is anything but science.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master of 7s
Wrong. Human behavior IS animal behavior.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master of 7s
No, it's an open question not a definitive statement. We can learn about chimp behavior the same way we can with small children. Just because they lack the capacity to speak or express themselves in an advanced manner doesn't mean they're not thinking mechanically.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master of 7s
Or you can cut out the reward / punishment bullshit and do good things because you have a capacity for empathy. That's why atheists can always be just as moral as an Christian, moreso even, because rather than focus on garbage supernatural outcomes for your actions you instead reflect on how such actions would affect you in the other person's place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master of 7s
LOL @ someone who 'talks to God' in the literal sense saying that I lack skepticism. I make claims based on available evidence, knowing that should new evidence arise I am obliged to rethink how I see things. Human and chimp interbreeding isn't wild conjecture, it's based on solid evidence. Far more than even the existence of Jesus, which you accept without ANY skepticism. So, before you presume to accuse me of illogical thinking you need to examine your own beliefs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master of 7s
75% =/= 98%. I don't think that's very hard to figure out. 98% is really fucking close. 75% is not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master of 7s
Well considering that I believe it's around 50% of DNA is the same for all carbon based Earth life forms (a number I'm not 100% certain of as I was not a genetics guy, but I believe is the approximate, anyone who knows the exact numbers feel free to correct me) I'd love to take you up on that bet.Quote:
When we have progressed to the technological point that we are able to view both chimp and human DNA in their entirety, I will lay odds that the 98% homology figure that has been stated for so many decades will end up being more like 40%.
Bullshit. A moral person will practice moral behavior. An immoral person will not practice said behavior and will not be made into a moral person just through the threat of "eternal damnation".Quote:
This is truth. But the practice of moral behavior will, in time, produce a moral person who will do good regardless of consequence. The Great Wall was built one brick at a time.
Who said anything about interbreeding?Quote:
A healthy amount of skepticism that you obviously lack. You always make the insinuation that Christians are blind sheep that don't ask questions, but you immediately point to fossil eveidence like that instantly clears everything up. Nothing has been confirmed yet regarding human/chimp interbreeding. Just that it might have taken place. It's still under investigation.
Interbreeding =/= to common ancestory.
I didn't read this thread, but I saw the Weather Wizard, so I know it is serious up in here.
By all means, quantify hatred and malice then. You're trying apply logic to an action to where there is none save in the mind of the perpatrator.Quote:
Originally Posted by g0zen
And if you think I just made all that stuff up, try actually sitting down and talking with murderers like I have.
Yes, but is it instinctual animal behavior? Humans do not function by instinct as I keep pointing out.Quote:
Wrong. Human behavior IS animal behavior.
I acknowledged that point.Quote:
No, it's an open question not a definitive statement. We can learn about chimp behavior the same way we can with small children. Just because they lack the capacity to speak or express themselves in an advanced manner doesn't mean they're not thinking mechanically.
Ok, I understand what the sticking point here is. You and others think doing good works for rewards is the primary motivator for Christians. Not so. The rewards in the hereafter are just a side benefit and they aren't even tangible rewards. They are metaphorical.Quote:
Or you can cut out the reward / punishment bullshit and do good things because you have a capacity for empathy. That's why atheists can always be just as moral as an Christian, moreso even, because rather than focus on garbage supernatural outcomes for your actions you instead reflect on how such actions would affect you in the other person's place.
No for a true Christian, the reward is the doing of the deed itself. No seasoned Christian who reads their Bible thinks they can earn their way into heaven, that isn't even possible.
Newborns commonly make the mistake, but not the older, more developed Christians.
LOL @ someone who consciously confines the scope of his faith to only what he can see, touch and measure telling me I need to examine my faith in the unseen.Quote:
LOL @ someone who 'talks to God' in the literal sense saying that I lack skepticism. I make claims based on available evidence, knowing that should new evidence arise I am obliged to rethink how I see things. Human and chimp interbreeding isn't wild conjecture, it's based on solid evidence. Far more than even the existence of Jesus, which you accept without ANY skepticism. So, before you presume to accuse me of illogical thinking you need to examine your own beliefs.
If Christopher Columbus had faith like yours he never would have proven the world is round. If aviation researchers had faith like yours they'd never have broken the sound barrier. Hell, Neil Armstrong never would have volunteered for what was potentially a disaster waiting to happen if he had faith like yours.
All humans have faith. It then becomes a matter of what you choose to put that faith into. For you it is science and I see nothing wrong with seeking answers through cold, hard facts and emperical analysis that says "This is the way it is, but is subject to change in the face of new evidence."
But to ignore all other aspects of universal existence (you expect me to believe you don't have a spirit or soul or that no life exists anywhere else in this incomprehensibly vast network of stars we call the Milky Way? nevermind the universe) simply because there is no objective proof of their being? I know you are smarter than that.
My faith is the product of a personal, subjective revelation of God, not what some preacher told me or even what I've read. I didn't even believe in God for the first 19 years of my life, Christianity was a complete load of bullshit as far as I was concerned and I used to mock people who told me I needed Jesus.
But me telling you this makes no difference anyway. There is no objective, scientifically quantifiable evidence of God's presence in the universe and there won't ever be. God can only be known subjectively and personally and even then, only when He chooses to reveal Himself to those who are seeking Him.
"So if it is subjective and personal, why won't you Christians just shut up and let it stay subjective and personal?" Believe me, we'd love to shut up and leave the world to it's own devices, but we aren't allowed to. We have a direct command to tell the world about Christ.
I think your problem with Christianity and religion in general is what you see as the rigid, stagnant nature of tradition and dogma wheras science is always changing and fluid. Science is always making new discoveries whereas Christianity is always preaching the same old thing it's been preaching for 2000 years. I'm probably wrong, but that what it seems like from this end.
98% of what they knew to be the human genome at the time. That statement was made in the 1960's. It is 2007. The more of the human genome they continue to map out, the lower that percentage drops.Quote:
Originally Posted by bbobb
Old, but still valid.Quote:
Who said anything about interbreeding?
Interbreeding =/= to common ancestory.
So why did you do it in the first place?Quote:
Originally Posted by Master of 7s
Urban legend, regrettably taught as fact in today's schools. Anyone who has looked out at the ocean from an elevated position - like, say, the medieval European ruling class with their seaside castles - is well aware of the earth being round. Columbus was simply seeking a more efficient trade route to Asia, not trying to prove any controversial beliefs true or false.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master of 7s
I call bullshit. So you're trying to tell us that real Christians don't believe that not sinning and doing good works means they're going to heaven? That they all do their good deeds out of the kindness of their heart, and not because they believe that it is the churches way and the church is their path to heaven?Quote:
Originally Posted by Master of 7s
You were doing great up till that last paragraph. So this command... you have to do it to follow God and get to heaven then? Yet there's no rewards to work for that give reason for what Christians do? Hello contradiction. I have no problem with your religion... but when you start to say I need to live by your rules, well then we have a problem.Quote:
My faith is the product of a personal, subjective revelation of God, not what some preacher told me or even what I've read. I didn't even believe in God for the first 19 years of my life, Christianity was a complete load of bullshit as far as I was concerned and I used to mock people who told me I needed Jesus.
But me telling you this makes no difference anyway. There is no objective, scientifically quantifiable evidence of God's presence in the universe and there won't ever be. God can only be known subjectively and personally and even then, only when He chooses to reveal Himself to those who are seeking Him.
"So if it is subjective and personal, why won't you Christians just shut up and let it stay subjective and personal?" Believe me, we'd love to shut up and leave the world to it's own devices, but we aren't allowed to. We have a direct command to tell the world about Christ.
Really? So do you have numbers and articles that show the percentage has been dropping? Or are you just pulling that out of your ass?Quote:
98% of what they knew to be the human genome at the time. That statement was made in the 1960's. It is 2007. The more of the human genome they continue to map out, the lower that percentage drops.
Interesting, but I don't see what it has to do with the earlier arguement still. I ask why you brought up inter-breeding because I don't remember anyone saying anything about that. Just that Humans and chimps are related.Quote:
Where?Quote:
Originally Posted by LordPerrin
Hmm...I'll have to research that.Quote:
Originally Posted by LordPerrin
Sweet Jesus! The church is the path to heaven?! Fuck no! Where are you getting that from?Quote:
Originally Posted by bbobb
Not sinning and doing good works is what we are supposed to do anyway, it's not even an option. That's the baseline behavior that is required of and expected from all Christians. Is your boss gonna pat you on the back and say "Good job" everytime you come into work on time? Of course not, you're supposed to be punctual. There is leeway given to newborns, but not much before correction is enforced (I'm talking on a spiritual level not through the church).
Any rewards that come, both in this world in the form of financial gain and in the next in whatever form it takes, come from activating and exhibiting faith in God that goes above and beyond your personal limitations, walking out the plan He set up for your life, and continuous spiritual growth.
You cannot earn your way into heaven. That's impossible. Faith in Jesus is the only way you get in, period.
I think you will find that overwhelming majority of Christians don't particularly care what you do with your life. It's the Bible Belt, fundamentalist, right-wing extremist nut jobs that have access to network television and the political arena that give that impression we expect everyone follow what we believe, when the reality is that these idiots are just a very vocal minority.Quote:
You were doing great up till that last paragraph. So this command... you have to do it to follow God and get to heaven then? Yet there's no rewards to work for that give reason for what Christians do? Hello contradiction. I have no problem with your religion... but when you start to say I need to live by your rules, well then we have a problem.
As for the command to preach the gospel. It is a command. We don't have to follow it, we will still enter into heaven, but we will suffer judgement because we were not obedient. We honestly don't have to do a damn thing the bible says if we don't want to, but there is no spiritual growth if we don't and that's really the whole point.
The reward is spiritual growth and maturity and entry into new levels of faith, knowledge, wisdom and understanding. As I stated already, any physical/tangible rewards that come, come from growth in the things of God. It is the desire and will of the Father for His children to enjoy the fat of the land and works of our hands, but there are conditions that must be met beforehand and good works aren't enough.
I have articles I could site, but they are written by Christians. Christians with PhDs in biology and genetics, but Christians nevertheless so there is an obvious slant. As such they useless to this discussion.Quote:
Really? So do you have numbers and articles that show the percentage has been dropping? Or are you just pulling that out of your ass?
Quote:
Interesting, but I don't see what it has to do with the earlier arguement still. I ask why you brought up inter-breeding because I don't remember anyone saying anything about that. Just that Humans and chimps are related.
Quote:
Originally Posted by g0zen