Marriage/Serious Relationships

This topic has been touched upon in three or more threads lately.

I've grown increasingly disenfranchised with the whole idea in the past half year. I'd like to make whatever long term relationships I have in the future work by putting effort and time into them, but the more I learn about other people's experience, I wonder if there is anything I can do in the end to make a relationship work for the long term.

From the stories people have told me, you can do everything right, and yet the other person will still change and not look at you the same way. The best scenario that I've heard of is when the significant other just accepts this and stays with you out of duty or a calm family like love.

I wouldn't want to put anyone through the "best" scenario.

I'd like nothing better than to have a happy serious relationship and be dedicated to someone until the day I die. I normally care for people (when I do) deeply and the feelings do not go away unless me or the other person forces them away. And yet I've never met a physically attractive woman that worked the same way emotionally. So I wonder if the whole concept of a happy marriage is nothing but a silly fantasy made up in a time when women had no say in such things.

What is everyone else's thoughts on this matter?

I dunno, I've had enough shit go wrong in relationships to seriously doubt the idea of marriage/long term relationships. But at the same time my parents have been married for 30 years and are as happy as can be.

I guess my general opinion is it can be done with a lot of determination and a lot of luck, but generally speaking humans just weren't designed for this kind of companionship.

If you want to kill yourself, there are quicker, less painful ways.

I've been happily married for eight years, and we have two beautiful children together. It was definitely the best decision I ever made, and I hope to be married for many, many years to come.

TNL minority of one!

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Originally Posted by Melf

I've been happily married for eight years, and we have two beautiful children together. It was definitely the best decision I ever made, and I hope to be married for many, many years to come.

TNL minority of one!

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any advice? What is your story?

I'd say first off figure out what marriage means to you, and how important it is to you. If you marry for the sake of your friends or family wanting you to, or under pressure from outside people, then you're 100% marrying for the wrong reason.

I've discovered that it means nothing to me, therefore if I ever get married for some reason, unless I have a complete change of heart, it would probably be one of the worst decisions of my life.

I think that long-term relationships/marriage aren't a bad thing, however I think a lot of people just get into them because it's "what you're supposed to do". I'm not getting married unless I'm pretty damn sure it's a person I can spend my life with, which may never happen.

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Originally Posted by buttcheeks

any advice? What is your story?

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He's been broken like a pony at the carnival. He now wanders around in circles endlessly.

You know why he likes the Genesis so much? Because it reminds him of his single days. His spirit just has been broken so badly that he doesn't realize this.

I don't know. I guess if it's "meant to be" (blah blah blah) then a good relationship with someone you can trust is about the best that you can achieve in life. However, given all of the weaknesses that are prevalent in today's society, particularly, my faith in this has deteriorated somewhat. I've been in a relationship for a couple of years with a great girl and all that stuff and I'm not a cheating person by nature. As time has gone by, however, I'm wondering if I did the right thing and didn't just go out and "have fun" with a bunch of chicks instead of laying all of the proverbial eggs in one basket. I might just move on for the sake of experiencing different things with different people which is very similar to what you've outlined above. She's done nothing wrong and I couldn't ask for a better person to be with, but I still don't know that I want to make that commitment, *again*.

I kind of think that the only way that I'll ever get married again is if I truly want to have children again and a family. Unfortunately, or fortunately, that has to involve another person and it would take a lot for me to take that leap of faith again at this point.

I'm happily married.

I'll tell you this - it makes you examine your relationship on a whole different level once it's happened. I don't imagine someone can understand until it happens to them. For those of you with tattoos uses this idea: Remember when you got the first one? The next day when you realized this doesn't come off and will be on you for the rest of your life - it freaked you out a little till you got a hold of the idea, right? Magnify that. A lot.

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Originally Posted by haohmaru

however, I'm wondering if I did the right thing and didn't just go out and "have fun" with a bunch of chicks instead of laying all of the proverbial eggs in one basket.

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have you talked to your girl about this?

A lot of the people I've talked to about this, that have changed, always seem to have a little ticking time bomb like that. There was always this "thing" in one or both of their heads that never talk about, and one day it becomes a problem, because no one deals with it. And usely the other person ends up being hurt both by the action itself, and the fact it was hidden for months if not years.

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Originally Posted by Yoshi

He's been broken like a pony at the carnival. He now wanders around in circles endlessly.

You know why he likes the Genesis so much? Because it reminds him of his single days. His spirit just has been broken so badly that he doesn't realize this.

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jokes aside, are you ever going to come clean on what exactly is so bad with your marriage?

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Originally Posted by Melf

I've been happily married for eight years, and we have two beautiful children together. It was definitely the best decision I ever made, and I hope to be married for many, many years to come.

TNL minority of one!

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since when did Forever and Ever till Death do us Part become "many, many years?" Is that an allusion to "I hope he dies someday when I still have some juice left in me."? ;)

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Originally Posted by buttcheeks

have you talked to your girl about this?

A lot of the people I've talked to about this, that have changed, always seem to have a little ticking time bomb like that. There was always this "thing" in one or both of their heads that never talk about, and one day it becomes a problem, because no one deals with it. And usely the other person ends up being hurt both by the action itself, and the fact it was hidden for months if not years.

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There is no talking about this. She's all in or all out in everything she does. No such thing as seeing other people and all that shit. I don't even know what else it is that I might be looking for. Maybe just freedom not so much to bang a bunch of hoes but more like the ability to do whatever I want without having a responsibility of having to discuss it with someone else or worrying about hurting their feelings.

In today's age, marriage is more of a dinosaur than it's ever been and far more challenging as well.

I've been married for 2 years to a girl I've known for 19 years. It's really awesome.

Yes, your life changes, but if you get married for the right reasons, it changes for the better. Case point: I now have someone to play LAN RTS's with all the time.

I now await Yoshi's "LOL2YEARS".

I don't know if there's any trick to a happy relationship. I was always a miserable shit who had no luck with girls my whole goddamn life. In the fall of a couple years ago I had almost completely given up on it. Theeeeen. I just sort of blindly met, and started dating, somehow, my current girlfriend. And t just sort of works. She's fine with me, I'm fine with her. Her family likes me, mine likes her. Then again, I've spent my entire summer saving money so I can move to England to be with her now that's she's moved there, but I'm not bitter about it or anything. Really, I think it'll be fun. *shrugs* There's a lot of faggotyness to being in a good relationship.

Now is when the older ones come in and wave their canes shouting THAT'LL ALL CHANGE YOU JUST WAIT AND SEE

I know I'm an unfunny joke account around here but I can say this.


I've had a girlfriend for 3 years, no problems. We are exactly the same, we like the same things and we get along like best friends except she has boobs.
I will most likely marry her in the upcoming years and to me that is great because I want to see her more than I do now (up to 7 days a week now).

So. You have to find the right person. If you want to get married because it's what we are told to do, then it won't work.
You know those girl movies like pride and prejudice and becoming jane and how the main girl always says she wants to marry for love and not for money.

Well, that's the truth. It's gay, but it's the truth.



And now, I return to jonas the dumbass. Continue.

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Originally Posted by jonas

And now, I return to jonas the dumbass. Continue.

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<insert witty cutting remark about jonas never leaving "dumbass">

Don't get married until your in your thirties.

By that time you will have solidified your career and gotten what ever possessions-attained whatever experiences you thought were important, if your hobby was going to be profitable by now it will. By this time you will have found a girl with similar interests and equal ambition, who can drink as much and as often as you, who has strengths that are your own weaknesses. A relationship is a pact, a partnership. And the secret to a long relationship is competition. It is a three legged race and it won't work if someone falls behind. This doesn't mean you won't stumble, but you should have picked a partner that will pick you back up and expect the same.

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Originally Posted by Doc Holliday

Don't get married until your in your thirties.

By that time you will have solidified your career and gotten what ever possessions-attained whatever experiences you thought were important, if your hobby was going to be profitable by now it will. By this time you will have found a girl with similar interests and equal ambition, who can drink as much and as often as you, who has strengths that are your own weaknesses. A relationship is a pact, a partnership. And the secret to a long relationship is competition. It is a three legged race and it won't work if someone falls behind. This doesn't mean you won't stumble, but you should have picked a partner that will pick you back up and expect the same.

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I agree with this completely. I want to punch people that I know who are 22 and getting married. Get a fucking job or graduate from college first, marriage can wait, morons.

great. I mispelled you're in an IP thread. :|

It just rubs off, don't worry about it. You'll be spelling correctly again in a week or so.

I just got engaged on Sunday, so throw me into the long-term believer pile.

She's so awesome. :)

You proposed at Dover Downs didn't you...

There's nothing wrong with getting married, just be fucking smart. Getting divorced isn't the end of the world either.

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Originally Posted by Gohron

Getting divorced isn't the end of the world either.

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This doesn't seem like a very good way of looking at things at all.

I bet if people who enter marriage thinking, "If it doesn't work out, we could always get divorced" never had that as a "backup" to begin with, there'd be a lot less marriages.

I've never met anyone worth a serious relationship, let alone marriage. To me, it's something to do at 40 because it's expected.

Glitch, I'm 100&#37; comitted to never getting divorced. I absolutely won't marry unless I'm sure that divorce won't happen (but it may still). Shit still happens though man, just have to prepared for the worst at all times.

Been with my girlfriend four years and counting, and I still get the best feeling in the world when I see her smile.

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Originally Posted by Cheebs

I just got engaged on Sunday, so throw me into the long-term believer pile.

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Congrats Cheebs, and good luck.

Serious relationships and marriage require you to be selfless.

If you can't handle giving yourself up, don't get into a relationship and don't get married. Some people are not that selfish to begin with, so it works for them. Others are too selfish and don't realize it until alimony slaps them in the face.

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Originally Posted by MarkRyan

Been with my girlfriend four years and counting, and I still get the best feeling in the world when I see her smile.

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I take it she reads TNL?

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Originally Posted by Mr-K

I agree with this completely. I want to punch people that I know who are 22 and getting married. Get a fucking job or graduate from college first, marriage can wait, morons.

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I can understand why they feel the need to though. They probably worry that they will not be able to find anyone after college. And there is something truth to that. It does get harder with a 8 to 5 job. Half your day is gone and when you do get home, you most often are not in the mood to go out. it can be done, but it still easier to meet people while in college

You shouldn't be getting married just to get married in the first place; I think a lot of people do that and I doubt it's a coincidence that the divorce rate is so high.

but they wants to make babies and lives with someone

Obviously, sometimes it just doesn't work, and I'm not going to tell anybody that they didn't try hard enough in their situation, because I'm not them.

However, I do think there's a more "selfish" attitude towards marriage these days, and if everything isn't exactly the way you want it, the idea is it's okay to just give up and start again. I think, if you're going to marry somebody, then you'd damn well better be ready to give it every chance you've got, and not even consider divorce as an option unless things are totally unsalvagable, or your spouse becomes a person that doesn't deserve to have you around anymore (violence, etc.).

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Originally Posted by buttcheeks

I'd like to make whatever long term relationships I have in the future work by putting effort and time into them, but the more I learn about other people's experience, I wonder if there is anything I can do in the end to make a relationship work for the long term.

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You can start by actually getting into a relationship instead of just talking about it on the internet.

The best relationships I've had have been non-monogamous, and I'm still closest to the girls with which I had/have these relationships. I'm too flighty and individualist to commit myself to somebody and not get annoyed really quickly, and I like women who are the same.

Those relationships don't last though because you're not really putting anything into them.

One of mine has lasted for two and a half years so far, and we're closer than we ever have been before. (Some of) These aren't just sexual trysts, but serious romantic relationships.

Partly it's just a common sense approach to wanting to move around a lot by yourself, but not wanting to lose touch with people that you once felt close to. A relationship that can last, say, ten years with less contact than your usual monogamous coupling and still be as intense at the end as it was at the beginning despite both parties having had multiple partners is, in my opinion, a very strong one.

Spending less time together is different from not being monogamous. The only times I've been with a girl and not cared if she messed around with other guys were times I didn't really care about the girl. If you're not spending much time together and you're both sleeping with other people then you're really good fuckbuddies.

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Originally Posted by SpoDaddy

Spending less time together is different from not being monogamous. The only times I've been with a girl and not cared if she messed around with other guys were times I didn't really care about the girl. If you're not spending much time together and you're both sleeping with other people then you're really good fuckbuddies.

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And what's wrong with that, if you're romantically and emotionally fulfilled fuckbuddies.

Like I said in that other thread: www.dontmarry.com imo.

On a related note, have any of you guys ever watched that show engaged and underage on mtv? That thing is a laugh riot.

I read some of that essay and the only part I saw that I agreed with was the part that talks about men who don't want to get married being villified and painted as womanisers or immature.

The rest seems like a load of bullshit framed in vaguely misogynistic terms, to be honest. Apart from anything else almost everything down there is complaining about society's expectations, which should go out the window as soon as you're in a loving relationship. No woman who I wanted to spend the rest of my life with would insist on a diamond ring, for instance.

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Originally Posted by Regus

Like I said in that other thread: www.dontmarry.com imo.

On a related note, have any of you guys ever watched that show engaged and underage on mtv? That thing is a laugh riot.

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lol I watch it with my GF. It's everything that's wrong with teens today.

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Originally Posted by Cheebs

I just got engaged on Sunday, so throw me into the long-term believer pile.

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Thinking marriage is a good idea is a kin to thinking that HD doesn't matter, so I'm sure you'll be blissfully ignorant in both areas for many years to come.

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Originally Posted by buttcheeks

jokes aside, are you ever going to come clean on what exactly is so bad with your marriage?

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It's not my marriage. It's the whole institution. Would you sign a lifetime contract with one employer with no solid indication of the position you would hold, the salary you would receive, etc.? It's not really any different. Some people get very lucky, but the whole idea is dumb as hell.

So why did you go through with it then?

Because I was young and stupid, like many current TNL posters are still.

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Originally Posted by Gohron

I'm 100% comitted to never getting divorced. I absolutely won't marry unless I'm sure that divorce won't happen

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That's like saying I'll never buy a car unless I 100% know I'll never get in an accident. That's just something that can't be known. My Uncle left my Aunt after 20+ years of marriage and they were like the happiest, most content most well adjusted couple I think I've ever seen.

I almost fell into the "trap" twice, but then I realized that i simply could not stand the thought of giving a woman the power to financially ruin me. Marriage, as it stands now, is completely crazy for a man to follow through with. The odds are stacked so far against us that its ridiculous. There is no "true love" worth me losing half of everything I own.

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Originally Posted by Yoshi

Because I was young and stupid, like many current TNL posters are still.

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Don't know if I'd use "stupid" as the term.

I guess that most (guys, particularly) take it on faith that the chick they're marrying is going to be just like they are now in ten years from now and the truth is that many of them change over the course of the years.

First of all, I would never marry anyone without having seen them a whole hell of a lot for at least 3 years. I wouldn't marry someone without sharing living space with them for at least a year.

The girl that I married was great for the first 3 years that I knew her. But then the MARRIAGE MONSTER got a hold of her and started convincing her that sex was a weapon to be weilded if she didn't get her way, regardless if her way was complete idiocy. It go to the point where being intimate was a bi-annual event for quite a few years because her position deteriorated to the point where it was looked at as a "wifely duty" and "work" rather than something to be enjoyed. I know many, many couples and almost always the guys end up saying that sex with any regularity exits the marriage after "x" years.

Relationships change over time, unfortunately and that's the "x factor" when you go into a lifetime commitment wherein you aren't guaranteed that everything won't change.

I could tell you stories that would make the hair on the back of your neck stand up and run back to the jewelry store to return that ring. ;)

Truthfully, though, if both people are absolutely committed to EACH OTHER first over anything and everything else then marriage is great thing.

Met my wife 10 years ago, got married in 2002 and have been very happy ever since. There are good and bad days, just like anything else but my life is better with her than without her. Here are some things I realized for our marriage to work:

1-Be honest and open to communicate with just about anything. A good relationship (whether it is friends, parents, children, or spouse) should be built on honesty and trust. Without trust, it will most likely fail.

2-Compromise. Once you have another person in your life, you will need to compromise. Doesn't matter if he/she is your soulmate and all that crap, you still need to. No 2 people are born to live together under one roof (that includes your parents/children/roommate). You will always have to make some concession. Keep in mind that the other person has to do the same too. And this is where #1 comes into play, because if you feel like you are giving up too much, you got to be able to talk it out (maturely) and resolve the issue

3-Try new things. I can't say this enough, one of the things that I love my wife the most is that we share new experiences all the time. Whether it is buying our first home, getting our first pet, going to our first play, taking classes (separately), buying our second home, having a baby, etc etc etc, we are always doing something new every year. We share our trials and tribulations together and that brings us closer together.

A relationship, like all living things, need to grow, or it will slowly die. To grow a relationship, you need to try to do new things (either together or separately) and then bring that experience back.

4-Even though you are married, it is important to realize that you don't have to spend every waking moment together. Each should seek out his/her own friends or have their own time to do their own things. This is where #1 comes in again with trust, so no one feels like the other person is cheating or ignoring each other.

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Marriage is alot of work, but it can be alot of fun too. I think back on ex gfs and know that some of them definitely would have ended in divorce because we were too different personality wise, or that we wouldn't have been able to do one of the things above.

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Originally Posted by haohmaru

I wouldn't marry someone without sharing living space with them for at least a year.

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Yeah but statistics show people who live together first are far more likely to get divorced.

Link those statistics please.

Also: Yoshi leave your wife. Man up and do it if you're so fucking miserable.

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Originally Posted by Josh

Link those statistics please.

Also: Yoshi leave your wife. Man up and do it if you're so fucking miserable.

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Starting over fucking sucks, though. It took me two years to get back to a decent state of living after forking over $20,000.00 to lawyers so far.

(Edit) To be precise, the divorce rate in three different countries was found in three seperate studies to be nearly twice that for couples who live together before getting married as for couples who don’t.

BUUUUUUUUUT...

There are still a lot of boundaries out there about living together first and people who are "free of mind" enough to do so are probably more predisposed towards divorce anyway - whether they live together with someone or not. The statistic doesn't mean shit.

Starting over sucks. But doesn't the prospect of HATING YOUR LIFE FOREVER UNTIL THE DAY YOU DIE suck too?

Leave her. Get a shitty apartment. Start over. Stop whining.

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Originally Posted by Josh

Starting over sucks. But doesn't the prospect of HATING YOUR LIFE FOREVER UNTIL THE DAY YOU DIE suck too?

Leave her. Get a shitty apartment. Start over. Stop whining.

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IAWTP.

But that's yoshi's gig (whining about wife, Tom Brady, politics, etc)

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Originally Posted by Josh

Starting over sucks. But doesn't the prospect of HATING YOUR LIFE FOREVER UNTIL THE DAY YOU DIE suck too?

Leave her. Get a shitty apartment. Start over. Stop whining.

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That's exactly how I looked at it and exactly why I got out. I can replace material things. I can't replace not getting laid. Ever. :P

Well here is a start

http://live.psu.edu/story/3682

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Originally Posted by that site

University Park, Pa. -- Even though more than half of couples now do it, compared with only 10 percent 30 years ago, living together before marriage still is linked to higher rates of troubled unions, divorce and separation, Penn State researchers have found.

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Most sites are Christian sites, I'm sure TNL would rip them to shreds :)


I did find some honest to God stats on the subject back when my girl and I were talking about living together. I'll see if I can find them again.

Yeah, I'm really curious now. But not curious enough to research it myself.

And no, I don't count the Christian sites as accurate. Remember, those sites also believe there is a angry red guy with a big fork waiting in the center of the earth... WAITING FOR YOU TO WATCH A R RATED MOVIE YOURE GOING TO HELL!

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Originally Posted by Josh

the earth... WAITING FOR YOU TO WATCH A R RATED MOVIE YOURE GOING TO HELL!

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If that's all it takes we're all totally and completely fucked.

Totally fucked.

I completely agree with the four points KOF made earlier. I also agree with Haoh about living with someone. When you live with someone, who we will presume you are considering to be a life partner for a year, you get to see how that person really is IMO. Those stats that are from Christian sites I believe cannot be used to reflect the modern society we have today in the United States. Many points have been made in this thread already that point out the various type of personalities people have and that creates an incredible amount of combinations [in terms of beliefs/values etc.] when it comes to relationships. Whereas Christian couples' values are almost exactly the same making the stats favor their beliefs.

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Originally Posted by Josh

Also: Yoshi leave your wife. Man up and do it if you're so fucking miserable.

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That's the long and short of it right there.

You are always quick to point out what everyone else should do, yet you are always whining like a little kid about how bad marriage sucks, blah blah blah.

Quit being a pussy and get out of the relationship or STFU!

(this is barring that it's not some weird "lol marriage" gimmicks that I don't know about)

Well I'm glad I'm not the only one who isn't DOOM DOOM DOOM on these boards.

This line in Knocked Up cracked me up: "Marriage is like an episode of Everybody Loves Raymond, except it isn't funny."

With that said, I agree with everything KOF has said. It's all about sharing our experiences and compromising. I've been married since January and can't imagine my life without her. It isn't always perfect and we have to work at it, but at the end of the day there isn't anywhere else I'd rather be.

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Originally Posted by torgo

Yeah but statistics show people who live together first are far more likely to get divorced.

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Originally Posted by Josh

Link those statistics please.

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I was told (and read) the same thing in my Sociology course in college. It was like 58&#37; of all divroced couples lived with each other before getting married. That was like 8 years ago, so the percentages may have changed.

I personally think that co-habitation before getting married is a bit redundant. I mean, if you're in a serious relationship, you're already spending practically 100% of the time with each other - including spending the night, constantly going to your partner's house, etc. You should have a pretty good idea of what living with that person will be like without the need for co-habitation.

To each his own, but marriage these days seems to be a fad. "Oh you're 26 now? You should get married". Most people get married for the wrong reasons (money, sex) and wind up "settling" on their partner, who they later divorce because they didn't think it through.

I just think that marriage is something that should feel right and not "seem" right. Trusting your gut may be better than using your head when making that kind of life-changing decision.

You mean... Trusting your heart.

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Originally Posted by Thief Silver

You mean... Trusting your heart.

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No... your gut. The reason being; you're heart is already involved and the "gut feeling" is just (imo) a verification of what you're heart is already telling you.

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Originally Posted by haohmaru

The girl that I married was great for the first 3 years that I knew her. But then the MARRIAGE MONSTER got a hold of her and started convincing her that sex was a weapon to be weilded if she didn't get her way, regardless if her way was complete idiocy. It go to the point where being intimate was a bi-annual event for quite a few years because her position deteriorated to the point where it was looked at as a "wifely duty" and "work" rather than something to be enjoyed. I know many, many couples and almost always the guys end up saying that sex with any regularity exits the marriage after "x" years.

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I think a lot of the time after a guy has been in a relationship for awhile he starts taking the sex for granted. No foreplay, no oral, just jam it on in and pump away for five minutes then roll over and go to sleep.

I've been in two relationships that have lasted over two years and I have to admit the longer it lasted the harder I had to try to keep the sex interesting. Men do tend to get bored with the same partner after awhile (obviously this speaks to the "don't ever get married" side of the argument) and I don't think it's always fair to blame the woman for lack of sex in a marriage/long term relationship.

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Originally Posted by torgo

Yeah but statistics show people who live together first are far more likely to get divorced.

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People who don't live together before they're married tend to be more religious than people who do and are more willing to persevere through a marriage even when it is obvious to both parties that it needs to end because they're afraid of going to hell/what people in church will say.

correlation != causation

Yeah marriage has so many hidden factor's behind it that any stats run on it generally take advantage of some of those hidden factor's.

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Originally Posted by Ozzie

This line in Knocked Up cracked me up: "Marriage is like an episode of Everybody Loves Raymond, except it isn't funny."

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Thus making it exactly like an episode of Everbody Loves Raymond.

Marriage is 'Til Death. Go watch that show.

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Originally Posted by shidoshi

Thus making it exactly like an episode of Everbody Loves Raymond.

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I thought the mom was hilarious. She is exactly like my mom, and that's why I live 4 states away from her instead of next door.

bwa hahaha ha hahaha

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Originally Posted by Saint of Killers

I think a lot of the time after a guy has been in a relationship for awhile he starts taking the sex for granted. No foreplay, no oral, just jam it on in and pump away for five minutes then roll over and go to sleep.

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There are certainly lazy assholes like that out there but I think the issue is more that women get off on mental stuff rather than physical stuff. Once the novelty wears off sex loses it's edge for the woman, wheras for a guy the edge is always a given as long as there's a vagina in the room. You have to spice things up to keep them interesting but I think eventually most women just sort of lose interest, notice that their man still wants it, and start to see sex as something to be bartered.

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Originally Posted by Saint of Killers

I think a lot of the time after a guy has been in a relationship for awhile he starts taking the sex for granted. No foreplay, no oral, just jam it on in and pump away for five minutes then roll over and go to sleep.

I've been in two relationships that have lasted over two years and I have to admit the longer it lasted the harder I had to try to keep the sex interesting. Men do tend to get bored with the same partner after awhile (obviously this speaks to the "don't ever get married" side of the argument) and I don't think it's always fair to blame the woman for lack of sex in a marriage/long term relationship.

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I'll agree with that to an extent, but the shit Haoh was talking about happens.

You also have to consider other changes. I swear to god, after my wife had our son, her fuckind sex drive dropped to ZERO. She no longer had any inclination to have sex. Ever. That, combined with her just totally changing led to the end of my marrige. I tried to make it work for 3 long years, for my son's sake, but she had no intention of even meeting me half way. She just pushed me away until I couldn't take it. Once I had had enough, & told her as much, the first words out of her mouth were about getting a lawyer. No talk of therapy or trying to make it work, she wanted out, she was just too cowardly to do it herself.

That said, I will never get married again. Just going by the evidence I've observed in my own life so far, relationships end, no matter how hard you try, all it takes is weakness in the other person. Why on earth would I enter a contract that takes half my shit when a relationship ends? Marriage is an instution made by the Church & the State. I have no respect for either. I can't see a good reason to do it, ever.

Hmm, do I sound jaded?

JM

Luckily not having kids was part of The Agreement. My wife knows if she ever got pregnant I'd make damn sure that kid wasn't carried to term.

That's the other thing, once a woman gives birth there's a switch in her brain that gets flipped to "batshit insane".

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Originally Posted by SpoDaddy

That's the other thing, once a woman gives birth there's a switch in her brain that gets flipped to "batshit insane".

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Jesus H. Christ, that is the first time I've ever agreed with Spo.

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Originally Posted by Saint of Killers

I think a lot of the time after a guy has been in a relationship for awhile he starts taking the sex for granted. No foreplay, no oral, just jam it on in and pump away for five minutes then roll over and go to sleep.

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Yeah, except that this totally wasn't the case. I always made sure there was foreplay and oral and everything else. It was never a 5 minute experience and going downstairs for a beer or a nap.

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Originally Posted by portnoyd

Well I'm glad I'm not the only one who isn't DOOM DOOM DOOM on these boards.

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Talk to me in 10 years when you have a couple of 'lil ones running around. You haven't been in it long enough yet. Hopefully, it won't become the case.

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Originally Posted by JM

I'll agree with that to an extent, but the shit Haoh was talking about happens.

You also have to consider other changes. I swear to god, after my wife had our son, her fuckind sex drive dropped to ZERO. She no longer had any inclination to have sex. Ever. That, combined with her just totally changing led to the end of my marrige. I tried to make it work for 3 long years, for my son's sake, but she had no intention of even meeting me half way. She just pushed me away until I couldn't take it. Once I had had enough, & told her as much, the first words out of her mouth were about getting a lawyer. No talk of therapy or trying to make it work, she wanted out, she was just too cowardly to do it herself.

That said, I will never get married again. Just going by the evidence I've observed in my own life so far, relationships end, no matter how hard you try, all it takes is weakness in the other person. Why on earth would I enter a contract that takes half my shit when a relationship ends? Marriage is an instution made by the Church & the State. I have no respect for either. I can't see a good reason to do it, ever.

Hmm, do I sound jaded?

JM

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Exactly. I hit the point where I was like "what the fuck is going on here?". I have to try to get my wife to want to have sex with me once in a while? How do you make someone want that? I took all the steps that she said were missing and I'm not even going to go into how fucking stupid they were - but they all produced the same results - nothing. The bottom line is you can't make someone want you if they don't and if marriage hits that point it's fucking over and done. I'm not going to spend 40 or 50 years feeling like a leper because the bitch that I happened to marry decided it's not part of marriage to get laid once in a while. I have no regrets other than I can't see my kid everyday. But, I have shared 50/50 custody and I feel like I didn't lose a thing.

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Originally Posted by haohmaru

Exactly. I hit the point where I was like "what the fuck is going on here?". I have to try to get my wife to want to have sex with me once in a while? How do you make someone want that? I took all the steps that she said were missing and I'm not even going to go into how fucking stupid they were - but they all produced the same results - nothing. The bottom line is you can't make someone want you if they don't and if marriage hits that point it's fucking over and done. I'm not going to spend 40 or 50 years feeling like a leper because the bitch that I happened to marry decided it's not part of marriage to get laid once in a while. I have no regrets other than I can't see my kid everyday. But, I have shared 50/50 custody and I feel like I didn't lose a thing.

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Same here, The ONLY downside to the divorce has been not seeing my son so much (50/50 custody here too) and trying to pay my house note with half the income. JM = broke ass.

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Originally Posted by JM

Same here, The ONLY downside to the divorce has been not seeing my son so much (50/50 custody here too) and trying to pay my house note with half the income. JM = broke ass.

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In my settlement agreement, which was signed recently, I agreed to give her the house and she agreed to reduced child support with no possibility of asking for more money over the next 12 years. I make enough money that I'll have a nicer house in the next few years and she'll look in the mirror and figure out what an idiot she was, materialistic bitch that she is.

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Originally Posted by Josh

Starting over sucks. But doesn't the prospect of HATING YOUR LIFE FOREVER UNTIL THE DAY YOU DIE suck too?

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Haha, best shit ever.

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Originally Posted by Yoshi

It's not my marriage. It's the whole institution. ... the whole idea is dumb as hell.

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I've never read a hell analogy used so well.

Hey Jenna Jameson got married.

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Originally Posted by portnoyd

Well I'm glad I'm not the only one who isn't DOOM DOOM DOOM on these boards.

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http://www.the-nextlevel.com/board/a...1&d=1187397099

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Originally Posted by haohmaru

Exactly. I hit the point where I was like "what the fuck is going on here?". I have to try to get my wife to want to have sex with me once in a while? How do you make someone want that? I took all the steps that she said were missing and I'm not even going to go into how fucking stupid they were - but they all produced the same results - nothing.

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I don't have to tell you this, but her 'steps" were probably just excuses to make herself feel better. Like she wasn't the one screwing things up.

But do you have any theories on how she got that way? Or is it just your run of the mill "women are insane" stuff?

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Originally Posted by SpoDaddy

There are certainly lazy assholes like that out there but I think the issue is more that women get off on mental stuff rather than physical stuff. Once the novelty wears off sex loses it's edge for the woman, wheras for a guy the edge is always a given as long as there's a vagina in the room. You have to spice things up to keep them interesting but I think eventually most women just sort of lose interest, notice that their man still wants it, and start to see sex as something to be bartered.

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I blame society for this more than anything. Why the hell is it the man's job to make sex work? I mean come on, women are human beings, humans like pleasure, they have vaginas that give pleasure. SO, with logic even a three year old could understand, you'd think they want to keep having sex. You'd think they would figure out whatever thing "x" is that makes them get off and do it. And it isn't like someone doesn't want them to have orgasms. The whole world wants them to get off. Men want them to get off, other women want them to get off, hell, kids, cats, dogs, trees, bats, turtles, and jesus probably want them to get off.

So I have to blame society. It seems to be only thing telling them that aren't suppose to be as sexual as men, and they have to act this or that way. But shit, I don't know. Its all crap.

I sometimes wonder how much we harm ourselves with marriage. It's like the Dali Lama or Catholic priests who swear off sex. That just isn't natural and now we've got an entire country of sexually mollested children as proof.

How natural is marriage? Aren't men programmed to spread their seed as much as possible to ensure their genes move forward? Natural selection, evolution, all that wonderful stuff? Don't we have millions of failed marriages across the country that suggest maybe humans just weren't designed with monogamy in mind? Monogamy is extremely rare in other creatures, why do we think we are meant to be monogamous?

the problem with what your saying is that if anyone wants marriage, it is men. 70&#37; of divorces are started by the woman.

The problem may not be with monogamy, but with people in general. Most of us never live up to the ideals we believe in as a society, regardless of what they are. We have idiots that have wonderful marriages, and presidents that cheat on their wives. Marriage might have a high rate of failure because with two people you have double the chance of human flaws screwing things up.

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Originally Posted by buttcheeks

any advice? What is your story?

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My wife and I were realistic about what we were doing. I had finished college and was already teaching, and she was only a year away from finishing. We started small and built ourselves up, and most importantly, we waited until we were ready to have children. Our first daughter was born four years into our marriage (we wanted to make sure things would work out before we ran out and had kids), and our second was born four years after that (which gives some slack in raising them. My eldest daughter started pre-k a week after her little sister was born. That way my wife could concentrate on the newborn without having to worry about taking care of two kids at once during the day).

It's a lot of realism and common sense, but mostly, it's about two people reaching a point in their lives where they know what they want and making sure that they both want the same thing. Setting a plan to achieve those goals allows for the marriage to grow and strengthen, and our marriage is actually better now that we have our children (two is enough for us). After eight long years, we're finally the complete family we always wanted.

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Originally Posted by Pineapple

since when did Forever and Ever till Death do us Part become "many, many years?" Is that an allusion to "I hope he dies someday when I still have some juice left in me."? ;)

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Hey, I'm being realistic. After eight years, I have absolutely no desire to cheat on my wife, and I'm pretty sure she feels the same. We're economically sound, good parents, and we both love and trust each other and have great communication. That being said, no one can read the future, so it's kind of dumb to make promises when you have no idea what the future brings.

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Originally Posted by Doc Holliday

Don't get married until your in your thirties.

By that time you will have solidified your career and gotten what ever possessions-attained whatever experiences you thought were important, if your hobby was going to be profitable by now it will. By this time you will have found a girl with similar interests and equal ambition, who can drink as much and as often as you, who has strengths that are your own weaknesses. A relationship is a pact, a partnership. And the secret to a long relationship is competition. It is a three legged race and it won't work if someone falls behind. This doesn't mean you won't stumble, but you should have picked a partner that will pick you back up and expect the same.

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I wouldn't say you should necessarily wait until your 30s, but it's true that you should have a clear idea of what you're looking for, and make sure your partner shares those goals. Marriage is about more than just love (love don't pay the bills!). It's about sacrifice, trust, honor, and commitment.

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Originally Posted by Yoshi

It's not my marriage. It's the whole institution. Would you sign a lifetime contract with one employer with no solid indication of the position you would hold, the salary you would receive, etc.? It's not really any different. Some people get very lucky, but the whole idea is dumb as hell.

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If you approach marriage like you do taking a job, no wonder you're miserable. Anyone can get a decent job, and it doesn't require anything from you like marriage does. You can leave a job you hate, and you can leave a marriage. No one's shackling you to your wife. If you're looking for a crystal ball to tell you whether or not your marriage will work, you're SOL. Nothing's guaranteed in this life, and you get nowhere unless you take chances.

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Originally Posted by kingoffighters

Met my wife 10 years ago, got married in 2002 and have been very happy ever since. There are good and bad days, just like anything else but my life is better with her than without her. Here are some things I realized for our marriage to work:

1-Be honest and open to communicate with just about anything. A good relationship (whether it is friends, parents, children, or spouse) should be built on honesty and trust. Without trust, it will most likely fail.

2-Compromise. Once you have another person in your life, you will need to compromise. Doesn't matter if he/she is your soulmate and all that crap, you still need to. No 2 people are born to live together under one roof (that includes your parents/children/roommate). You will always have to make some concession. Keep in mind that the other person has to do the same too. And this is where #1 comes into play, because if you feel like you are giving up too much, you got to be able to talk it out (maturely) and resolve the issue

3-Try new things. I can't say this enough, one of the things that I love my wife the most is that we share new experiences all the time. Whether it is buying our first home, getting our first pet, going to our first play, taking classes (separately), buying our second home, having a baby, etc etc etc, we are always doing something new every year. We share our trials and tribulations together and that brings us closer together.

A relationship, like all living things, need to grow, or it will slowly die. To grow a relationship, you need to try to do new things (either together or separately) and then bring that experience back.

4-Even though you are married, it is important to realize that you don't have to spend every waking moment together. Each should seek out his/her own friends or have their own time to do their own things. This is where #1 comes in again with trust, so no one feels like the other person is cheating or ignoring each other.

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Marriage is alot of work, but it can be alot of fun too. I think back on ex gfs and know that some of them definitely would have ended in divorce because we were too different personality wise, or that we wouldn't have been able to do one of the things above.

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Words of wisdom, these are, especially point #4. Thinking that marriage means the end of you as a person is not just ignorant, it's a clear sign that you're not ready to get married. You don't simply stop being you because you tie the knot. As kof said, marriage is about compromise. My wife knew I was a gamer when we started dating, and she's accepted that. I also did a good job of selling it to her: "at least when I'm playing you know where I am and who I'm with!" So long as I don't use the money for bills to buy games, she has no problem with it. Hell, I started Sega-16 after our first daughter was born! My wife knows that it's my passion, and she accepts who I am. She's never tried to change me. By the same token, I've never tried to change her, and I've supported everything she's wanted to do. You want to work part time and be with the kids in the afternoon? If we can afford it, no problem. You want to go back to school? No problem. She needs her space and so do I. We're not joined at the hip.

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Originally Posted by Saint of Killers

I think a lot of the time after a guy has been in a relationship for awhile he starts taking the sex for granted. No foreplay, no oral, just jam it on in and pump away for five minutes then roll over and go to sleep.

I've been in two relationships that have lasted over two years and I have to admit the longer it lasted the harder I had to try to keep the sex interesting. Men do tend to get bored with the same partner after awhile (obviously this speaks to the "don't ever get married" side of the argument) and I don't think it's always fair to blame the woman for lack of sex in a marriage/long term relationship.

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We've never had this problem. Our sex life hasn't gotten dull or anything, as we try to keep things fun. If you don't try to keep things fresh, it's going to get bad quick.

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Originally Posted by haohmaru

Talk to me in 10 years when you have a couple of 'lil ones running around. You haven't been in it long enough yet. Hopefully, it won't become the case.

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I'm actually happier now than ever. I've always wanted kids, and I felt our family was incomplete until little Emily arrived last month. I absolutely love being a dad, and my wife and I are much closer now that we've had kids. It's a great feeling to have a family.

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Originally Posted by torgo

Monogamy is extremely rare in other creatures, why do we think we are meant to be monogamous?

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I think society is full of crap for trying to make people think they have to get married. It works for some people, and it doesn't for other. The difference between us and animals is that we can choose to be monogamous. I say go with what works best for you.

Sounds like Melf's got his shit together :tu: Very admirable.

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Originally Posted by Melf

We've never had this problem. Our sex life hasn't gotten dull or anything, as we try to keep things fun. If you don't try to keep things fresh, it's going to get bad quick.

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what exactly is there new to do after two kids?

You'd be surprised. ;)

I'm not going to go into specifics here for privacy reasons, but the point is that you need to keep things fresh and lively. Having kids has done nothing to our sex life except make quality time scarce. Luckily, I have four free hours between classes twice a week, so that gives me plenty of time to get home!

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Originally Posted by Changeling

There is no "true love" worth me losing half of everything I own.

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Just move to a non-community property state or sign a prenuptial agreement.

Any man not leaving a shitty marriage is either afraid of being alone, or is afraid of change, just like the rest of mankind. People like things that are familiar, as much as they might bitch about them. Hell, they are so used to bitching about their shitty marriage that what would they now bitch about with conviction? Creatures of habit, we are without a doubt.