Tom Cruise on Scientology

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Originally Posted by buttcheeks

I see it as a matter of power and authority.

The dinosaur thing and the evolution thing puts genesis to debate. Which in turn puts the whole bible to debate for the "EVERYTHING is the inspired word of God" crowd.

If the entire bible is up for debate, no one group can claim authority with it, reasonably.

On a much smaller scale, it is kind of like people figuring out that the king wasn't really appointed by God and divine right was BS.

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That's pretty much the stakes of it, yeah.

Do I still feel the Bible is the word of God, albeit run through human beings? Sure! Do I think the Bible contains allegory? Absolutely. Does this contradict? Not at all. There's a lot of poetic language in there designed more to illustrate a point than to function as a history textbook, which a lot of folks have trouble wrapping their heads around throughout time.

I personally get a lot of value out of it. I'm fine if people disagree, even washed up punk rockers with a secret Peter Pan complex. ;)

Scientology < Christianity, Hinduism, Daoism: because they all try to explain the same things -- creation, abstract connection between the species, and the intangible force, call it good or evil, that drives the natural world.

The difference is that Scientology is 1900 years younger than the rest and compared to the limited knowledge the ancients had and science they used to explain these things, it uses far less scientific or creative means? I mean, Come on! DC8's, volcanoes?? A Lord of the Rings religion would be a hell of a lot more convincing.

Piss off! ancient religions are far better than this hokey sci-fi shit.

Scientology amounts to the mafia declaring itself a religion so it can claim its rackets are constitutionally protected religious practices. In this context, it doesn't really matter that their creation myth is over-the-top ridiculous - it's just window dressing anyway, only there because a religion is supposed to have a creation myth.

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Originally Posted by YellerDog

That's pretty much the stakes of it, yeah.

Do I still feel the Bible is the word of God, albeit run through human beings? Sure! Do I think the Bible contains allegory? Absolutely. Does this contradict? Not at all. There's a lot of poetic language in there designed more to illustrate a point than to function as a history textbook, which a lot of folks have trouble wrapping their heads around throughout time.

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There's no real clarification between what's allegory and what's literal. Believing the bible is "the word of god" is just as ridiculous as believing any of the fantastic elements within the actual book. The Christian religion itself is tied to a premise as ridiculous as any of the stories in the old testament. It is possible to take none of it literally, take whatever meaningful philosophy you can from it and write off the magic and archaic values not worth bothering with as products of their time. You could still call yourself a Christian, it just wouldn't be a religion anymore. After that you could snicker at Scientology without coming off as the emperor in no clothes.

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Piss off! ancient religions are far better than this hokey sci-fi shit.

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Just wait 2000 years. Then the DC8s will sound as reasonable as angels flying through the sky riding horses.

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Originally Posted by rezo

Believing the bible is "the word of god" is just as ridiculous as believing any of the fantastic elements within the actual book.

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You're free to think so, but I disagree. Personal faith and whatnot.

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You could still call yourself a Christian, it just wouldn't be a religion anymore.

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I think the main question with the orginized side is, for me, is it more important to agree on every point, or to take value in a community?

I'm pretty sure Scientologists value their community a great deal.

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Originally Posted by Scourge

I'm pretty sure Scientologists value their community a great deal.

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So do jugglers.

Hey, it was your point, not mine.

Juggling is more practical than believing in god.

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Originally Posted by Josh

Juggling is more practical than believing in god.

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What you do with balls in your spare time is your buisness, just like your belief in God.

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Originally Posted by Scourge

Hey, it was your point, not mine.

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And similar to jugglers, I can say Scientologists are pretty damn goofy.

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Originally Posted by YellerDog

What you do with balls in your spare time is your buisness, just like your belief in God.

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I agree completely. Fortunately, this is the internet, so we can keep arguing about dumb shit.

your mother

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Originally Posted by Josh

I agree completely. Fortunately, this is the internet, so we can keep arguing about dumb shit.

your mother

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plays better bass than you do

Anyway, it's a fun conversation.

Its better when people have explosive vaginas about these things, but yeah. Its alright.

A religion should be created on the principle of juggling explosive vaginas.

I am a legally ordained minister. I can make this happen.

awesome, I'll convert ASAP

I personally like making holy water.

I turned the baltimore harbor to holy water 3 days ago.

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Originally Posted by YellerDog

You're free to think so, but I disagree. Personal faith and whatnot.

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Well yeah, if you didn't disagree I wouldn't have made the post.

?

If you were a non religious follower of Christ the only reason you wouldn't be able to function in the community anymore is if they didn't want you to. You could just look at debating Jesus's lack of divinity in the same way you look at arguing about whether there were dinosaurs on Noah's ark now, all the while holding the same basic beliefs for how to live as the other christians, just without the magic which I'm guessing you've already abandoned much of already anyways- unless I'm mistaken and you believe Christians are at war with demons, have special poison drinking powers and that all of the languages in the world came from the gods being angry at men trying to build a tower to heaven.

That tower was massive and unsightly, I would have destroyed it too if I were god.

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Originally Posted by rezo

Just wait 2000 years. Then the DC8s will sound as reasonable as angels flying through the sky riding horses.

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No. 3000 years ago Genesis does a damn good job of outlining the Big Bang and evolution:

Bible: Matter (1), Water (2), Energy (3), Atmosphere Space and Planets (6&7), Plant Life (11), Stars (14), Sun and Moon (16), Fish and Fowl (20), Water Mammals (21), Land Amphibians and Reptiles ("creeping thing") and Mammals (24&25), Humans and Supreme (over other life) Intelligence (26).

Science: Matter, Energy, Elements & Compounds (Water), Stars, Planets (Earth), Water on Earth, Life, Plant Life, Fish, Amphibians, Reptiles, Mammals, Humans.

Other than Water, Stars, Plant Life and Birds being out of place, Genesis basically follows Evolution -- about 67&#37; accurate. And that was using science that was available 2800 years before Darwin.

With today's science there is no evidence of volcanoes exploding from H-Bobs 95 million years ago and I doubt 2800 years from now, someone’s going to find the H-bomb remains through forensic evidence or some physic theory.

And pterodactyl bones could easily have been mistaken for angels, Pegasus, and dragons. OK maybe not angels. But people thought it would be cool to fly… …I don’t know where I’m going with this? Oh yeah. Angels and Dragons are plausible creatures based on reasonable evidence. There’s no proof they did or did not exist, however there is proof DC8’s can’t fly in space and why the hell would they use 1950’s design and technology?!.

Ok fuck that point. Just go with the first half: Genesis is amazingly spot on to current creation theory and it is 3000 years old. Scientology goes against current science to say 1940’s technology blew the world to shit in 94,998,000 B.C. and re-spawned life as we know it.

I always figured that if there is a god, he is basically some omnipotent programmer who designed everything to evolve in the way it has and then just sits back and watches.

Maybe every now and then he takes control of a specific person and drives them on an epic journey along with an animal companion and a samurai/ninja whichever is closer, that results in the saving of the world.

He doesn't really give a shit about worshipers etc, he just had nothing else to do and is enjoying his ability to live life.

I'm only half joking.

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Originally Posted by rezo

Well yeah, if you didn't disagree I wouldn't have made the post.

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?

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If you were a non religious follower of Christ the only reason you wouldn't be able to function in the community anymore is if they didn't want you to. You could just look at debating Jesus's lack of divinity in the same way you look at arguing about whether there were dinosaurs on Noah's ark now, all the while holding the same basic beliefs for how to live as the other christians, just without the magic which I'm guessing you've already abandoned much of already anyways- unless I'm mistaken and you believe Christians are at war with demons, have special poison drinking powers and that all of the languages in the world came from the gods being angry at men trying to build a tower to heaven.

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I'm sure you're driving at something, but you're not quite hitting whatever it is.

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Originally Posted by Josh

I personally like making holy water.

I turned the baltimore harbor to holy water 3 days ago.

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Did all the vampire zombie jesus worshippers die?

Thief that's called Deism

Thank you very much Doc. I generally count myself as simply agnostic, but these could provide interesting and even insightful reads (These meaning it also links to Unitarianism, something I've read a little about before)

SEE: http://www.the-nextlevel.com/board/s...ad.php?t=41639

You're in good company.

Linking to your own Joke Account's thread that is relevant. You deserve double rep here.

I need to start repping more people.

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Originally Posted by Thief Silver

You deserve double anal here.

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you're right

That wasn't my Joke account, it was Kano's.


EDIT:

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Originally Posted by Josh

you're right

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He's right.

I vote for the ultra rare triple anal, since thief probably has a little wang, if you group him with buttcheeks and compass, it could work.

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Originally Posted by buttcheeks

Hell old Ben had more in common with our Josh than any bible beater living.

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How did I miss this?

Also... really? How?

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Originally Posted by Nash

What is 'real'? If 'real' is what you can feel, smell, taste and see, then 'real' is simply electrical signals interpreted by your brain.

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this sounds like the sample from Incubus's New Skin.

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Originally Posted by Bailey

I vote for the ultra rare triple anal, since thief probably has a little wang, if you group him with buttcheeks and compass, it could work.

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The main problem here is the angle of entry. I just don't know if triple anal is possible.

There MIGHT have been a S&B video of it, but I can't really remember anymore.

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Originally Posted by Cowutopia

this sounds like the sample from Incubus's New Skin.

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It does have a teen girl lyric quality to it.

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Originally Posted by Josh

The main problem here is the angle of entry. I just don't know if triple anal is possible.

There MIGHT have been a S&B video of it, but I can't really remember anymore.

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We'll force them to make a new one, Chicago trip imo. You bring the camera, I'll bring the beating stick if the fags decide they don't want to cooperate.

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Originally Posted by Josh

The main problem here is the angle of entry. I just don't know if triple anal is possible.

There MIGHT have been a S&B video of it, but I can't really remember anymore.

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Oh it's possible. Here's how it's done.

1) You get a loose groupie.
2) Find a coffee table.
3) Place drummer on table face up.
4) Put groupie on drummer face up.
5) Put rhythm on groupie face down.
6) Last the Lead heads up the rear and slips in between the meat sandwich.

Lots of oil is required.

...and here I thought you were in Rock N' Roll.

im doing mental calculations, and everyone would either have to have a 12" penis, or 12" wide hips.

Neither of these are likley. especially on TNL.

Good point, we'll just fake it.

No. Top and bottom can be relatively average sized and limber, only the guy coming in the rear has to be gifted enough to get through all of the ass.


DVDA, on the other hand. That's impossible.

I'm sure god made it possible somewhere in his divine code for three dicks to fit into one ass.

the dicks will fit. its just the positioning that is difficult.

Good point, one up, one down, what if we turned the 3rd guy (thief, he's little) oh his side and used a lever to swing him in, we got it.

All we need is a rape stand, Josh can we borrow yours?

can he levitate?

hence the need for the rape stand.

I sold mine on craigslist. :(

Damnit Josh, the the team needed that. Now you and Doc will have to hold Thief up for our epic video.

I'm not touching him. He'll give me gay.

Well, you sold your rape stand, your gonna have to step it up and wear gloves.

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Originally Posted by Thief Silver

I always figured that if there is a god, he is basically some omnipotent programmer who designed everything to evolve in the way it has and then just sits back and watches.

Maybe every now and then he takes control of a specific person and drives them on an epic journey along with an animal companion and a samurai/ninja whichever is closer, that results in the saving of the world.

He doesn't really give a shit about worshipers etc, he just had nothing else to do and is enjoying his ability to live life.

I'm only half joking.

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I imagine god is of a nature that can be understood about as well as dogs understand how we think.

I also believe that the modern concept of "worship" is far to confining and very primitive. With a being like God, it is hard to believe that pure lip service and obeying some rules is the only way to worship. I'd dare say that being the very best you that you can be is a far better way of praise, considering he/it made you.

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Originally Posted by Doc Holliday

And pterodactyl bones could easily have been mistaken for angels, Pegasus, and dragons. OK maybe not angels. But people thought it would be cool to fly… …I don’t know where I’m going with this? Oh yeah. Angels and Dragons are plausible creatures based on reasonable evidence. There’s no proof they did or did not exist, however there is proof DC8’s can’t fly in space and why the hell would they use 1950’s design and technology?!. .

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something that no one considers is that those things might not have been physically real, but maybe the supernatural made us think we were seeing them. The human mind can manufacture things and make us think we are experiancing things. What if God merely plugged into that to communicate? That would be far easier and less energy consuming that really lighting bushes on fire and making real angels and dragons.

and on a completely different note, it is funny that the very concept I just described keeps popping up in popular fiction.

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Originally Posted by Josh

How did I miss this?

Also... really? How?

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he was a smart, womanizing, people person.

some fun facts

1) lade the foundations for electricity
2) invented an instrument made of glass that was believed to drive men insane (the armonica)
3) was a member of a few cults and had orgies (orgies debatable)
4) went to France as an old man with the gout and banged young french women (banging debatable)
5) composed historical ballads (one was about the pirate Blackbeard)
6) he experimented with vegetarianism
7) had an illegitimate son

http://www.comet7.com/images/misc/nemo_floater.gif

I'm scared.

make it shoop the whoop kid

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Originally Posted by YellerDog

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I was wondering why you decided to tell me that I think what I think and you think what you think and then nothing else. It should go without saying.

For the point I was driving at but didn't hit:

You said the question for you was whether it was more important for you to agree on every point, or take value in the community. The answer would be the latter, and since that was in response to the prospect of becoming a non-religious Christian I pointed out that doing so wouldn't harm your ability to value the community anymore than any other disagreement you might have with other Christians. The second half of the paragraph was just to confirm that you're a part of the modern trend of Christians who don't place much value on many elements of the faith.

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Originally Posted by Doc Holiday

No. 3000 years ago Genesis does a damn good job of outlining the Big Bang and evolution:

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Warrior angels rode horses possibly for no reason more complex than portraying them in a way that reflected their times.There's also a flaming flying chariot in the bible. It's a vehicle, so I guess I'll use that in favor of the horses for comparision if you'd prefer. There was no greater point than that ancient imagery will just be casually written off as a part of ancient cultures. Ancient religions envision horses and swords, mid 20th century religion has bombs and planes(?) although I thought they only looked like planes but were actually crazy alien technology?

I didn't say anything about Genesis, but you don't really get modern scientific views out of it unless you put them there. I'm not sure it's worth the trouble, but is interesting as a curiosity.

What I was clumsily trying to say, is you cannot deny the similarities between the Judeo-Christian creation story's timeline and modern science's creation theory.

L. R. Hubbard, on the other hand, throws all that shit to the wind and brings in 1950's style planes and bombs to blow up earth and infect our souls with sin. I mean, maybe he was trying to articulate the death of the dinosaurs or the Ice age but neither of those even happened when he claimed the bombs happened.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_age#Major_ice_ages
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinosaurs#Extinction


EDIT: You're right about chariots and shit as far as communication to the followers. But still the principles are different. Mormans and all protestant variations, Islam, Christianity, Judaism all based their beliefs on Genisis and don't add anything to it. Then, Scientology up and goes way off on a tagent.

Serious Doc is seriously smart. Scary stuff

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Originally Posted by buttcheeks

I see it as a matter of power and authority.

The dinosaur thing and the evolution thing puts genesis to debate. Which in turn puts the whole bible to debate for the "EVERYTHING is the inspired word of God" crowd.

If the entire bible is up for debate, no one group can claim authority with it, reasonably.

On a much smaller scale, it is kind of like people figuring out that the king wasn't really appointed by God and divine right was BS.

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The Bible was written by men. Whenever man gets in the way things don't come out right. That's the issue I have with organized religion. It's silly to say you have a God that's all-knowing and almighty and then try to hush the truth because you think it's corrupting people. Knowledge and understanding of the world and universe around us should be flattering. If it truly was created by a being we'd be idiots and wasting our existence not to try to understand how things are and work.

If we keep at it long enough we might even find our purpose. If there is one.

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Originally Posted by YellerDog

That's pretty much the stakes of it, yeah.

Do I still feel the Bible is the word of God, albeit run through human beings? Sure! Do I think the Bible contains allegory? Absolutely. Does this contradict? Not at all. There's a lot of poetic language in there designed more to illustrate a point than to function as a history textbook, which a lot of folks have trouble wrapping their heads around throughout time.

I personally get a lot of value out of it. I'm fine if people disagree, even washed up punk rockers with a secret Peter Pan complex. ;)

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I think people in the Christian faith put to much emphasis on the Bible. The fact that it's supposedly transcribed by people makes me skeptical. Wow, how great for those people to be these messengers. They give us these rules to live by based on their philosophies on subjects.

Maybe it's not a bad idea, because religion really helped socialize mankind and taught everyone to work together and really, even though they hated it, made civilized progression and science achievable. But I think God is more than just a book about morality and worship.

Our purpose is 42, everybody knows this.

http://theunfunnytruth.ytmnd.com/

http://historyofscientology.ytmnd.com/

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Originally Posted by Drewbacca

The Bible was written by men. Whenever man gets in the way things don't come out right. That's the issue I have with organized religion. It's silly to say you have a God that's all-knowing and almighty and then try to hush the truth because you think it's corrupting people. Knowledge and understanding of the world and universe around us should be flattering. If it truly was created by a being we'd be idiots and wasting our existence not to try to understand how things are and work.

If we keep at it long enough we might even find our purpose. If there is one.

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it isn't a matter of corrupting. It is a matter of fear.

For the average person, religion is a way of living and a way of dealing with death. Two big important things. For many people, the Bible is used to back itself up. As much as it sucks, circular logic is employed.

now, you must realize, in a situation like that, the shit hits the fan when something turns out to maybe be wrong. When something is not of the divine, but of man's hands.

Christianity pivots on it all being backed up by God. It does not pivot on it perhaps being a collection of man's wisdom and a poorly recorded record of the spirituality of a culture.

The possibility that they are wrong, and they are not right about death and life scares the shit out of most people. The beliefs of one's society and community changing and passing away, scares the shit out of people. And the power that will be lost when this culture shifts to that of a new identity scares the shit out of people.

Simple people in that situation do not give a shit about the truth or flattering God. They want their fear to go away and they want to KNOW that things will continue as they have.

That logic is insulting on its very principal, so how could it not be insulting to God? It's ridiculous to even begin to think that if God exists he tells us everything to know about everything. They need to stop playing God's publicist. If the Bible had all the answers we wouldn't need God.

Great points Drew, you really took a second helping of serious flakes today, nice work.

God doesn't give a shit about us. He told me, and I don't give a shit either.

Are you going to tell your kids there is no god?

Just curious...

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Originally Posted by Bailey

Are you going to tell your kids there is no god?

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http://www.comet7.com/images/misc/nemo_floater.gif

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Originally Posted by Drewbacca

That logic is insulting on its very principal, so how could it not be insulting to God? It's ridiculous to even begin to think that if God exists he tells us everything to know about everything. They need to stop playing God's publicist. If the Bible had all the answers we wouldn't need God.

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doesn't matter. The average person doesn't care about truth or a search for higher understanding. Its all about safety, power, and avoiding fear.

people on average, ARE insulting to God

I think God's a pretty understanding deity, actually. I don't know what all this "insulting" talk is supposed to be about.

So anybody not operating the friggin' Hubble is insulting to God? Interesting.

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Originally Posted by Doc Holliday

EDIT: You're right about chariots and shit as far as communication to the followers. But still the principles are different. Mormans and all protestant variations, Islam, Christianity, Judaism all based their beliefs on Genisis and don't add anything to it. Then, Scientology up and goes way off on a tagent.

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They're all Jewish spinoffs. Scientology isn't though, so it could have a story about giant turtles pooping out the earth, it doesn't really matter. But it doesn't seem to say anything about the origins of the universe at all so that can be filled in with modern science, and the story of Xenu and hydrogen bombs is closer to something like Adam and Eve, with it's magic fruit and talking serpents.

As for Genesis, Earth was made first, light was made before the sun for the purpose of initiating day and night cycles, there was water above the sky(not referring to clouds, and I think it came down for the flood?) and below it, and different living creatures were created whole at isolated times. It only resembles a modern timeline when you pass it through a filter and say "well, by earth they mean this", but there's little reason to bother. It would be far more interesting to have a breakdown of what actual beliefs they had at the time that led to Genesis taking the shape that it did, rather than messing with them to make them more sensible to our eyes.

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Originally Posted by rezo

The second half of the paragraph was just to confirm that you're a part of the modern trend of Christians who don't place much value on many elements of the faith.

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Oh, but I do. :D

Rock your agenda, though, it's fun to read.

If I was mistaken and you take the creation story and tale of Adam and Eve literally, believe the story of Noah's ark is true and that Christians can drink poison freely,battle demons and sometimes see the future, then I take it back. If that's the case it makes some of your earlier posts confusing though.

When the hell did I hold up Genesis as fact?


You're trying so hard here.

You mentioned not agreeing with Intelligent design earlier, so I put you in the group of people who don't take Genesis as fact. It was neither a direct reference by you or odd association by me to make. Along those lines, you also made a point about how some people take things literally when they should be read as allegories. Following that I put you in the group of Christians who... don't take many of the once much more commonly accepted beliefs literally. So earlier I mentioned in passing that there were already plenty of points you disagreed on with other christians, and then to make sure I wasn't mistaken I threw in some of the fantastic elements of the new testament that weren't mentioned directly but are generally as well regarded as intelligent design is now, such as the belief in demons and the need to exorcise them.

Those were the elements of the faith I mentioned not having much value being put in them, and then you said "oh, but I do!" So I listed them again to make sure. If that is the sort of thing you believe, then I was mistaken; if it's not, then you're part of a trend in Christians not believing those kinds of things.

UGH tnl ate my reply

I don't think it is that big of a stretch for Christians to take the new testament more serious than the old, especially with something like genisis. Isn't the first documented recording of gen like written several 1000 years after the fact? But are the things described in the NT only written 30-70 years after the fact? There is a lot to be lost in a couple 1000 years.

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Originally Posted by buttcheeks

UGH tnl ate my reply

I don't think it is that big of a stretch for Christians to take the new testament more serious than the old, especially with something like genisis. Isn't the first documented recording of gen like written several 1000 years after the fact? But are the things described in the NT only written 30-70 years after the fact? There is a lot to be lost in a couple 1000 years.

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I think the thing that Rezo doesn't get is that, a lot of the older stories can safely operate as allegory and still be a major part in informing faith. It's not a matter of saying "I don't buy that, I'll skip it", it's looking at the larger picture it's trying to paint. It's all important, though. I don't expect a free-wheelin' hard livin' skeptic to quite grasp that, though, and frankly it's not important to me that he does.

I don't know if it can all be swept under the table as allegory. And if it could, what would be the point of the religion? A lot of people believe because the religion actually does things for them, and gives them hope. If the more miraculous things in the bible are just allegory, what purpose does it serve for those people? or anyone for that matter? If it just some good advice, why not just convert to one of the many other religions that give good advice that are far less morally constricting?

Whatever gets you through the day. :D

Thank you and goodnight! Have a good weekend.

you fing cop out

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I think the thing that Rezo doesn't get is that, a lot of the older stories can safely operate as allegory and still be a major part in informing faith. It's not a matter of saying "I don't buy that, I'll skip it", it's looking at the larger picture it's trying to paint. It's all important, though. I don't expect a free-wheelin' hard livin' skeptic to quite grasp that, though, and frankly it's not important to me that he does.

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I understand that just fine. The trend has been from moving things over from the area of literal meaning to allegorical. So the demons become a metaphor for natural personal issues; things like that.This is why I thought you were a part of that trend, and you are. The shape the religion and the beliefs surrounding it take change because of this; there is a tremendous difference between a Christian who believes in the literal actions of god in the old testament, the ability to apply those abilities in the new testament, and the coming end of the world, and someone who does not take the old stories literally, does not believe Christians have performable magic powers and does not hold the apocalyptic elements of the religion in any serious regard. I haven't tried to do anything more complicated than say "well, I guess Yellerdog is with this group, not this one."

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I don't think it is that big of a stretch for Christians to take the new testament more serious than the old, especially with something like genesis.

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That's true. It's actually common for people who almost completely ignore the OT to accept the most of things in the New. That's why I brought up New Testament elements to see if they were looked at in the same way as the Old.

I still want an answer when I ask what is the point of christanity if it is just allegory?

All the good moral lessons can be gotten elsewhere. Why not swap it out for another religion at that point?

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Originally Posted by buttcheeks

I still want an answer when I ask what is the point of christanity if it is just allegory?

All the good moral lessons can be gotten elsewhere. Why not swap it out for another religion at that point?

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Because I take the New Testament as read, basically. For a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that it just works for how I'd like to live. Jesus is just alright with me.

Eat a dick, Rezo. If I want to be classified, I'll go fill out a census.

I'm out, have a good weekend all! :D

Have fun, Yellerdog(Christian: Methodist - rezo group A)

:lol:

You're all-right, man.

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Originally Posted by buttcheeks

doesn't matter. The average person doesn't care about truth or a search for higher understanding. Its all about safety, power, and avoiding fear.

people on average, ARE insulting to God

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That's poor logic too. Safety, power and avoiding fear go hand in hand with knowledge and explanation.

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Originally Posted by YellerDog

I think God's a pretty understanding deity, actually. I don't know what all this "insulting" talk is supposed to be about.

So anybody not operating the friggin' Hubble is insulting to God? Interesting.

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You're missing my point entirely and making a false conclusion about what I'm saying. I'm not saying people not trying to understand everything are insulting to God. I'm saying people who are trying to understand everything aren't insulting to God. They seem like opposing stances and therefore must conflict but they aren't. You can live life and be merry and that's fine. But if you want to take a closer look and understand the universe then that's fine too.

The problem is the people who claim it isn't fine and make it seem like understanding nature and our origins are insulting to God. Like God would need sheltering from them for protection. God doesn't need protection. The very idea that God would need protecting from us finding answers is insulting to him(her/it) because if he is all-knowing and almighty he wouldn't require it. If he does actually need protection from the truth then he isn't great or almighty by definition and therefore is not a god at all.

If god loves me and wants me to believe in him then why did he let me get created knowing full well I'm not capable of believing in him?

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Originally Posted by Drewbacca

That's poor logic too. Safety, power and avoiding fear go hand in hand with knowledge and explanation.

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you're being naive

safety, power and avoiding fear do not go hand in hand with knowledge and explanation.

Depending on the situation, you might be totally fucked. There might be zero hope for you and with in minutes you might meet a very painful demise. And there might be nothing you can do about it.

knowing of such a situation does you little good. You won't suddenly become safe after understanding just how screwed you are.

Knowledge and explanation only increase your safety and power when you are in a situation where you have options and the skills to pursue the best option.

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Originally Posted by Drewbacca

The problem is the people who claim it isn't fine and make it seem like understanding nature and our origins are insulting to God. Like God would need sheltering from them for protection. God doesn't need protection. The very idea that God would need protecting from us finding answers is insulting to him(her/it) because if he is all-knowing and almighty he wouldn't require it. If he does actually need protection from the truth then he isn't great or almighty by definition and therefore is not a god at all.

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the situation you describe does not exist. No one is sheltering God.

What you are talking about is people who like to stick their head in the sand because the truth may not be as nice and fluffy as the understanding that they currently believe.

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Originally Posted by icarusfall

If god loves me and wants me to believe in him then why did he let me get created knowing full well I'm not capable of believing in him?

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The official answer is you are just put here to trip us Christian types up with your cynicism.

Thats kind of a dick answer though, so I think you just havent found your personal miracle yet to believe and you will at some point. Nothing I tell you will get you there, you'll just have to find your own way.

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Originally Posted by Jetman

Thats kind of a dick answer though, so I think you just havent found your personal miracle yet to believe and you will at some point. Nothing I tell you will get you there, you'll just have to find your own way.

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YOU DON'T BELIEVE THE CRAZY FAIRY TALE SHIT I DO BUT YOU WILL!

Thats so arrogant. What if you're wrong?

Jetman is waiting for jesus to take away his aids.

If you believe hard enough in the power of Christmas, you might make Santa's sleigh fly.

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Originally Posted by Josh

Thats so arrogant. What if you're wrong?

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then it probably doesn't matter

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Originally Posted by icarusfall

If god loves me and wants me to believe in him then why did he let me get created knowing full well I'm not capable of believing in him?

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I'm not religious at all, but I'm going to say that it's not that you're incapable of believing in God. It's that you're unwilling to believe in God. And that's the catch. Your belief is of your free will. Although God does want everyone to believe in him, He doesn't create people pre-programmed to believe in him. He creates people with the free will to want, or not want, to believe in him.

well, sometimes it really seems like it is a load of shit

to be fair

I liked this thread better when there was talk of anal.

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Originally Posted by Nash

I'm not religious at all, but I'm going to say that it's not that you're incapable of believing in God. It's that you're unwilling to believe in God. And that's the catch. Your belief is of your free will. Although God does want everyone to believe in him, He doesn't create people pre-programmed to believe in him. He creates people with the free will to want, or not want, to believe in him.

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And that is why the whole thing's bullshit. Human free will is incompatible with a single, omnipotent, omniscient god. If there's a being with total perfect knowledge of all things past, present and future, and the ability to alter them however it sees fit, that has existed since before everything else, then everything was set in stone from the beginning. That's just basic logic.

Christianity hinges on your ability to look at an either-or proposition and believe both ends are true.

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Originally Posted by Nash

I'm not religious at all, but I'm going to say that it's not that you're incapable of believing in God. It's that you're unwilling to believe in God. And that's the catch. Your belief is of your free will. Although God does want everyone to believe in him, He doesn't create people pre-programmed to believe in him. He creates people with the free will to want, or not want, to believe in him.

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What he really means is it all depends on how young you were force-fed this bs, and how accepting you are to things you're told. :lol:

That is a rather mean and short sited thing to say.

I've been atheist. Sometimes weird shit happens that makes you wonder about the supernatural.

Supernatural, fine. Christian fairy tales? Unacceptable.

Agnosticism for the win.

Honestly, what does it fucking matter if there is or isn't a god? Either way my life is the same.