this was a tough one... i'm leaning towards king of fighter's 94.. just have always had so much fun with that game, my opinion is probably very biased.
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this was a tough one... i'm leaning towards king of fighter's 94.. just have always had so much fun with that game, my opinion is probably very biased.
Garou MOTW is above all else. I'm no expert when it comes to the genre, so I can't go into great detail as to why I love the game so much, so I'm just going to say control. It's just very responsive, and intuitive. Honorable mentions go out to Last Blade 2 and SF Alpha 3. Again mainly due to control. The crazy stuff like Marvel vs. Capcom ain't my bag, but it's fun for a few minutes here and there.
I'd say either KoF '98 or Garou. CvS2 isn't too bad, but I haven't spent much time with it.
although KoF97 is my favorite 2D fighter, theres no denying the greatness that is Third Strike. hands down best 2D fighter ever.
In terms of technical skill, I have to go with either SF Third Strike or Garou. I am Heavily leaning toward TS; it just seems like the absolute pinnacle of 2d fighting games, the culmination of everything Capcom has learned over the years. That might change once I put more time into Garou, but it just don't seem likely.
KOF '98 or Samurai Shodown IV
SFIII:TS is pretty much the most refined 2D fighter I've ever played. MotW is cool for a while, but it feels a little sloppy (but maybe that's just the DC pad I play it on).
CvS2 is cool, but I got tired of it because there's practically no way to remember every detail to every groove and situation. There's all these tiny, sometimes superficial changes to characters based on what groove they're in...if it was the only game I had, I'd say it was the greatest (since I could invest all that time), but I prefer the cohesiveness of TS.
So, I'm voting SF3:TS, but I want to give honorable mention to GGX. Like I mentioned in the GGX thread, it seems to have a little something from just about every 2d fighter out there, all wrapped up in a nice high-res package.
i dont think i could pick just one but these are my top 6
in no order
SF3 3rd strike
Garou MotW
King Of Fighters 98
SFA2
Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo
Samurai Shodown
Garou, I remember when I first saw the previews for Neo Geo version I was intrigued by it, and as a rule I'm not big on fighters much less Fatal Fury. The final product transcended my expectations. Not a huge number of characters, but that's a plus in my book, don't have time to master 25 fighters. *-neo
There is no fighter better than SNK vs Capcom on neo pocket.
Match of the Millenium. Alot of this has to do with the ability to take it anywhere. This game alone made the 12th grade the best year of school ever. Funny thing, I must have played it every day at lunch (I'd play as Terry and tag out with a friend who played Ken), and just 2 days before graduation a teacher finally noticed that I was playing it. Didn't take my Neo Geo Pocket away though:)
Will somebody please tell me what's so great about Mark of the Wolves. Our resident Neo Geo fans in the Tavern were talking the game up, so when I saw it at GameStop for Dreamcast, I picked it up. My goodness, the game is so simple. It's very straight-forward, and I honestly see nothing that it does better than any Capcom game. Seriously, somebody let me know if I'm missing something, because I see nothing fantastic about it.
Third Strike ain't no gem, either. I suppose I could see how you could have fun with it, what with the innovative parry system and all, but it's the least popular Street Fighter game in arcades these days, and I think that says something (less popular than even Super Turbo). The artwork is fantastic, yes, but the game boils down to very little. I suppose it's a purist's dream, but it's all too boring and slow for me.
Capcom vs. SNK 2 is a pretty damned good game. The wide cast of characters lets you be plenty picky when you're choosing who you want to play as. There's a pretty decent difference in styles between characters, as well - choose Hibiki and just stand still while your opponent tries to break your defense, or choose Blanka and rush that shit down. The many grooves are a good idea, though I think sticking to just three would have made it a lot more newb-friendly. This is a very good contender. I'd probably say my second favorite fighter of all.
But the ultimate fighting game has barely even been mentioned here... And that's disappointing.
Marvel vs. Capcom 2 is undoubtedly the best fighting game ever made. Now I can understand getting frustrated with the game easily... It's a VERY different game than your typical fighter, and if you wanted to re-classify it entirely, I wouldn't object. It's much more strategic than any other fighting game, much more complex, and ultimately more fun for those that get into it.
if going strictly for competition, i'm gonna have to go with Marvel vs Capcom 2... sure, it has tons of balancing problems... but in the end, it's just damned fun...
the assists kind of make it into a strategy game... absolutely insane
too bad the AI is so horribly bad even on the highest setting, that it's barely any fun without someone to play against
... i also really like CvS2, Third Strike, KoF:98, Garou, MotM, and Last Blade 2,
That game is broken as shit, has absurd infinite combos, and relies too heavily on assists, and Cable's Hyper Viper Beam.Quote:
Originally posted by MarkRyan
Marvel vs. Capcom 2 is undoubtedly the best fighting game ever made.
SFIII Third strike is by far my personal favorite.
Although Mortal Kombat II holds a special place in my heart. Ahh... nostalgia.
Garou: Mark of the Wolves. I like it because it's nearly as deep as SF:3rd Strike, but more accessible and has better character balance. It's the kind of game you can pick apart, and still play with your freinds.
Marvel vs Capcom 2 is a mess of a fighting game. There's lots of reasons why, but the biggest ones would be that its a button masher in the truest sense of the word and some of the non-Marvel characters are just mangled. Bulleta doesn't even play like Bulleta. It's sad that SNK pulled off a much better version of Bulleta than Capcom themselves did in MvC2. Same deal with Sakura, Felicia, and most of the Capcom side.
It's a fun game, but does fun equal best? Because damn is it broken. And I've played enough to unlock all the characters and about half the colors so I don't say this from lack of experience.
SNK vs Capcom makes it its bitch without trying. Only thing MvC2 has over it is a larger character roster.
My favorite (in nor particulary order):
Street fighter IIIrd strike (dc)
King of fighters 94/95/96/98 (neogeo)
Samurai shodown 1/2 (neogeo)
Street fighter zero 2 (saturn)
Yuyu akusho (megadrive)
Pft, sounds pretty basic to me. I still don't get it.Quote:
Originally posted by Frogacuda
Garou: Mark of the Wolves. I like it because it's nearly as deep as SF:3rd Strike, but more accessible and has better character balance. It's the kind of game you can pick apart, and still play with your freinds.
Broken as shit? Okay, that's very true. There are many characters that have abilities that Capcom just didn't forsee. Cable's got the instant Hyper Viper Beam. Sentinel has Unfly mode. Sprial's got, well... Tons of swords. If only one of these characters had their brokeness, the game would be dull. But guess what? About one third of the cast has some brokeness you can use to your advantage... And one third of the cast of 56 is still more than most fighting games. Throw in the team aspects, and the balancing issues only matter if you happen to like Capcom characters other than Ken, Cammy, Commando and Strider, Tron, or Sakura. Capcom characters are pretty DOA unless they're assists - guess what, the game's still the best out there. The balance among the top tier characters is quite impressive. If anyone thinks that the brokeness is what ruins Marvel 2, they're completely wrong. It's what makes the game.Quote:
Originally posted by 88mph
That game is broken as shit, has absurd infinite combos, and relies too heavily on assists, and Cable's Hyper Viper Beam.
That's a very common misconception. Marvel vs. Capcom 2 is probably the game you'll LEAST want to button mash in if you ever want to win. Seasoned players can make quick work of any button masher. Button mashing will leave your assists open to get killed, and will leave you plenty open for getting comboed to death (MAGNUSSS!!!). Ask anyone that plays Street Fighter competitively - button mashing will get you much further in Street Fighter 3 than it will in MvC2.Quote:
Originally posted by Ammadeau
There's lots of reasons why, but the biggest ones would be that its a button masher in the truest sense of the word...
Best 2D fighter ever? Depends on what constitutes the term "best". Here is my breakdown.
If "best" means FUN above all else: MVC2
If "best" means VARIETY above all else: CVS2
If "best" means APPEARANCE above all else: GGX
If "best" means DEPTH above all else: SFIII 3rd Strike
Personally, as a fighting game worshipper for over 10 years now (!), I would say that Third Strike is the BEST. The engine is extremely tight and precise. It requires a vast amount of technical experience with the engine to come anywhere near mastering it.
However, 3rd Strike is not my FAVORITE. That honor goes to CVS2, mainly for the chance to throw down with both SF and KOF gangs together. Pure joy.
Best ever 2D fighter? Judging from what I've witnessed from my local arcade scene over the years, I'd say good old Street Fighter II Turbo takes the cake. I still haven't seen such heated competition among extremely skilled players like those who played SFIITurbo to this day. Fighting games got a lot fancier nowadays, but back then the one with the "real" skills mattered most... :D
Street Fighter Alpha 2
yay!Quote:
Originally posted by Kidnemo
Street Fighter Alpha 2
i also like the whole street fighter 3 series. i've been goin' back to the first to games, and i'm havin' allot of fun playin' them. the older games seem to have allot more....character than 3rd strike. i prefer 3rd strike over the first two, but goin' back is still fun.
My vote goes to Street Fighter 2: Turbo Hyper Fighting.
In no particular order:
Super Street Fighter II Turbo (3D0) <I like the D-Pad; so sue me>
Street Fighter III (Double Impact/Third Strike) Can't decide
Street Fighter II World WArrior (I still play it)
Fatal Fury II
Capcom vs SNK (2)
Seasoned players can make short work of button masher in *any* game. However, a game like MvC2 actually encourages mashing...especially at advanced levels. I don't have figures, but a great many of the supers require the buttons to be mashed to achieve maximum damage, and some, like Cyc's Optic Blast, are pitifully weak without it. People where I play have developed a technique, where they run there hand over the attack buttons back and forth, sorta like a high-speed rub, that's gotta be brutal to the machine but does grant them a few more pixels of damage.Quote:
Originally posted by MarkRyan
That's a very common misconception. Marvel vs. Capcom 2 is probably the game you'll LEAST want to button mash in if you ever want to win. Seasoned players can make quick work of any button masher. Button mashing will leave your assists open to get killed, and will leave you plenty open for getting comboed to death (MAGNUSSS!!!). Ask anyone that plays Street Fighter competitively - button mashing will get you much further in Street Fighter 3 than it will in MvC2.
Anyway, I loved MvC2. It was fun; and there was a lot to experiment with. But eventually, the level of play gets so high, that's just not fun anymore, since the strategy is in non-fighting arenas. In example, Storm is a top tier character; good combos, supers, launchers, dashing, etc. etc. ...but her main use at advanced play is to super jump and glide safely down while mashing fierce attack to build meter. That's retarded. Ever seen really high level BlackHeart play? Also, retarded. And you say that it's the brokenness that makes MvC2, but the first time I had my incoming character's guard broken by a glitch, then killed by a triple AHVB by another glitch, without me having any chance of avoiding it, well, that's when I said this game has jumped the shark. You seem to like Magneto, which I find symptomatic of your post, since he's one of the most glitched characters of them all.
Plus, I know guys who have strategized and worked so hard at developing their play, that it doesn't really matter what the other player does...the "expert" player is pretty much just running a pattern. I fought this one Sentinel/Storm/Commando guy once, who, after getting things started, didn't even look at the screen anymore! Just his buttons so he could perform the pattern right. It was sickening (and lamely effective)
Anyway, like I said, I like the game, and it's fun. Especially when people pick different characters and experiment. But the uber-advanced level of play just reaches this ultimately "unfun" level. For a while I was really addicted, and went to tournaments and all that...but no matter how good I got with my Guile/Bulleta/Nash team, it would never win tournaments simply because the level of play had reduced the playable roster to a dozen or so characters, and they weren't in it. I think the game had a great 2 year run or so, but it just hasn't aged well beyond that.
But it's not like the Versus games haven't had a history of this...XvsSF is now just a race to see who can pull off their infinite first. Contrastingly, even the original SF2 feels relatively balanced and competitive.
I'll just say Waku Waku 7, because I always say Waku Waku 7 whenever I get the chance, and I will continue to do so untill this game's greatness is known!
(Actually, it's SF2 Turbo)
But can't the same be said about every single fighting game in existence?Quote:
Originally posted by MarkRyan
That's a very common misconception. Marvel vs. Capcom 2 is probably the game you'll LEAST want to button mash in if you ever want to win. Seasoned players can make quick work of any button masher.
Anyway, my vote for best 2D fighter of all time goes to:
http://www.dork.com/badnintendo/urban55.gif
URBAN CHAMPION!!!
Click here if want to learn more about this one.
You wouldn't believe how much time I spent playing this when I was a kid.Quote:
Originally posted by Regus
Anyway, my vote for best 2D fighter of all time goes to:
http://www.dork.com/badnintendo/urban55.gif
URBAN CHAMPION!!!
Click here if want to learn more about this one.
I agree with Apokryphos. Nearly word-for-word.
Ah well.
The Last Blade (but i can't decide between 1 or 2)
When I first played Street Fighter III : 3rd Strike, I asked myself: Can a 2-d fighter look any better than this? Then I played Alpha 3 on my Dreamcast. The game is just beautiful, and has all the great gameplay of Street Fighter's of the past. My vote for the best 2-d figter ever!
Bio's Favorite 2D Fighter Ever:
****************
Yie Ar Kung Fu
****************
I played this game TO DEATH in the arcades, and I'm not ashamed to admit I got a little nostalgia-teary when it came home on Konami Arcade Classics (PSX).
Heh, now the theme's in my head...I love this damn game :(
SFA3 don't look better than SF3:3rd Strike, 3rd Strike is the most redefine 2d fighter and the deepest fighter ever, no matter if is 3D 4D or whatever no fighter is deeper than 3rd StrikeQuote:
Originally posted by gamevet
When I first played Street Fighter III : 3rd Strike, I asked myself: Can a 2-d fighter look any better than this? Then I played Alpha 3 on my Dreamcast. The game is just beautiful, and has all the great gameplay of Street Fighter's of the past. My vote for the best 2-d figter ever!
Dude, you are the anti-me. Let's take this one at a time.Quote:
Originally posted by MarkRyan
Will somebody please tell me what's so great about Mark of the Wolves. Our resident Neo Geo fans in the Tavern were talking the game up, so when I saw it at GameStop for Dreamcast, I picked it up. My goodness, the game is so simple. It's very straight-forward, and I honestly see nothing that it does better than any Capcom game. Seriously, somebody let me know if I'm missing something, because I see nothing fantastic about it.
Third Strike ain't no gem, either. I suppose I could see how you could have fun with it, what with the innovative parry system and all, but it's the least popular Street Fighter game in arcades these days, and I think that says something (less popular than even Super Turbo). The artwork is fantastic, yes, but the game boils down to very little. I suppose it's a purist's dream, but it's all too boring and slow for me.
Capcom vs. SNK 2 is a pretty damned good game. The wide cast of characters lets you be plenty picky when you're choosing who you want to play as. There's a pretty decent difference in styles between characters, as well - choose Hibiki and just stand still while your opponent tries to break your defense, or choose Blanka and rush that shit down. The many grooves are a good idea, though I think sticking to just three would have made it a lot more newb-friendly. This is a very good contender. I'd probably say my second favorite fighter of all.
But the ultimate fighting game has barely even been mentioned here... And that's disappointing.
Marvel vs. Capcom 2 is undoubtedly the best fighting game ever made. Now I can understand getting frustrated with the game easily... It's a VERY different game than your typical fighter, and if you wanted to re-classify it entirely, I wouldn't object. It's much more strategic than any other fighting game, much more complex, and ultimately more fun for those that get into it.
Garou - Basic?? Play it some more. Cancelling through fakes is the key, as well as getting the Just Defending down. Never mind that, it has the best feel of any fighter ever made. The combos, the dashing, everything feels so smooth. The animation and characters ain't half bad either.
SF3 is nothing special? Alright, I'll take it from this you don't play fighting games that much. Nothing wrong with that. But to the hardcore, there's absolutely nothing deeper than 3rd Strike. Parrying alone takes at least a year to get down perfectly, and creates multiple levels of headgames - do you jump in and attack, or try to fake them out, or maybe parry their anti-air? Do you stop a chain to disrupt your opponent's flow, then stutter with a weaker move just to keep them off balance? Leave them an opening, parry then nail them again to demoralize them? There's also tons to learn with the various supers, and chains, too. Definitely a skill fest. This game's all about playing live foes and trying to out think them as well as out-reflexing them; the one-player mode is a bit slow.
CvS2 - Arrrgghh...this game sucks. Crappy 1993 animations, busted grooves and game-wrecking glitches, never mind poor response, bizarre buffer timing and mangled SNK characters (poor Kyo!). This is the biggest disappointment in fighting games ever to me. At least the cut scenes are fun.
MvC2 - best fighting game ever?? Only if Arena football's better than the NFL. Only if Lite Beer is better than aged scotch. Only if you like repeating the same gay juggles over and over with every character, no defence, the worst music ever and an engine that doesn't actually have that much to it once the eye candy has worn off. If you think this is "strategic" and "complex", play SF3 or VF long enough to really get the nuts & bolts down, you'll probably enjoy it alot more. And yes, I've played TONS of this game, through every iteration. The guys who win all the time just use the same dumb corner traps until you mess up, then juggle you endlessly (double War Machine! SKILL!). Fun for a while, especially with friends who aren't much at fighting games, but most people tend to get bored with it after a bit.
And who said Last Blade 2 for the control? Maybe the DC version's busted, but that wasn't my experience with the game...
My votes?
Third Strike, Mark of the Wolves, and King of Fighters '98. '98 has the best engine of the series (same as '97), the best character selection, and no game-busting 27-hit striker juggle stupidity. Those three are the holy trinity of 2-D fighting, as far as I'm concerned. None of them are perfect, with a few problems in balance here and there, but are all excellent, with flexible fighting systems that take real skill (more than I have, actually) and really reward spending time learning them, as well as having a great feel to the smoove controls.
Look, no offence, but you're insane. But let's ask anyway.Quote:
Originally posted by MarkRyan
Ask anyone that plays Street Fighter competitively - button mashing will get you much further in Street Fighter 3 than it will in MvC2.
Me: Hey, everyone who plays Street Fighter competitvely, will button mashing get you further in SF3 than MvC2?
Everyone Who Plays Street Fighter Competitvely: NO!!!
HELL NO!!!Quote:
Originally posted by StriderKyo
Look, no offence, but you're insane. But let's ask anyway.
Me: Hey, everyone who plays Street Fighter competitvely, will button mashing get you further in SF3 than MvC2?
[
Oy, so many things to say, but none of it's worth it here. No one here knows how to play MvC2. What makes Third Strike so deep? The same mind games you have in EVERY fighting game? Sure, there's depth there, but that's about it. The parry system is neat, but it severly restricts the gameplay - there's no such thing as a distance game in Third Strike. MvC2 has it all. If you think there's no strategy, then my friend, you know nothing of the game. Nothing. Go play Third Strike and work hard on poking your opponent to death. It's lots of fun. Meanwhile I'll enjoy the true depths of my fighting games that I'm sure you don't even fathom. Go visit www.Shoryuken.com. Read Seth Killian's collumns when they're back up.
You know, you're right. The screwy hit detection, the funny-ass unbreakable combos that rely on cheese, the lack of sensical move priority, the hugely unbalanced characters... MvC2 is clearly the winner here. And SFIII:TS having both one of the tightest defense systems in any fighter ever and the greatest hit detection of them all certainly have no effect on it.Quote:
Originally posted by MarkRyan
What makes Third Strike so deep? The same mind games you have in EVERY fighting game? Sure, there's depth there, but that's about it. The parry system is neat, but it severly restricts the gameplay -
What? Close combat in a hand-to-hand fighter? Surely you jest! We must bring back the full-screen fireball poking and annoyances, definately the greatest of all SF strategies.Quote:
there's no such thing as a distance game in Third Strike.
And SFIII:TS definately needs their own version of Strikers, so that it too can have 80-100% combos easily accessible by all, as that will surely balance the game out better.
:rolleyes:
The irony of this... too strong... kryptonite...Quote:
Meanwhile I'll enjoy the true depths of my fighting games that I'm sure you don't even fathom.
Aw, give me a break, man. We've explained exactly why we feel SF3 is a more tactical game, and Apok and myself pretty much broke down why MvC2 is cheesy. You can't just come back and say "oh, you simpletons don't understand my game, I'm leaving." We do understand it. Very well. You're the one who's not offering an explanation of these "true depths that we don't fathom."Quote:
Originally posted by MarkRyan
Oy, so many things to say, but none of it's worth it here. No one here knows how to play MvC2. What makes Third Strike so deep? The same mind games you have in EVERY fighting game? Sure, there's depth there, but that's about it. The parry system is neat, but it severly restricts the gameplay - there's no such thing as a distance game in Third Strike. MvC2 has it all. If you think there's no strategy, then my friend, you know nothing of the game. Nothing. Go play Third Strike and work hard on poking your opponent to death. It's lots of fun. Meanwhile I'll enjoy the true depths of my fighting games that I'm sure you don't even fathom. Go visit www.Shoryuken.com. Read Seth Killian's collumns when they're back up.
Infinite juggles. 100% combos. Yeah, wonderful game.
First of all, infinites. In MvC2, Capcom implemented re-dizzies. Re-dizzies, plus the crazy damage scaling (that makes every consecutive hit in a combo less damaging - it's in all Street Fighters) means that any infinite alone with get you, at the most, 60% health on ONE of the three characters. That's 60% of 300%. So if you want to compare it to Third Strike, that's a whopping 20% combo right now. Ouch. I think in Third Strike a j.Roundhouse, c.Forward XX Hadoken will do about 20%. Yes, fear the cheesy infinite. It ruins the game entirely.
To be honest, the reason I really have no hope for the progression of this conversation is your use of the words "cheesy" and "cheap." If you find effective strategies and techniques to be "cheap," then you're just not playing the same way I am. For me... Everything goes. And that's how it should be. No whining, "OMG, you don't deserve that win, that was cheap!" or "I'm not playing, you're just cheap." That doesn't make playing games fun. And the idea of being "honorable," and refraining from the cheap stuff because it somehow makes you a better player (but only if better = stupid). "Instant Hyper Viper Beams that combo - that's just cheap!" Yeah, and it's also completely avoidable. There is NOTHING in MvC2 that is impossible to beat. Was it really unavoidable when you got your guard broken when your second character dropped in? No. (And if you think the properties behind guard breaking are ONLY in MvC2, then you are mistaken - they apply to all Capcom fighters with air blocking - it's no glitch). What makes MvC2 fun is the strategy. Seeing something new and saying to yourself, "Damn, that's tricky, and hella good. How am I going to beat that?" - and then you come up with a counter. The game is light-years beyond any other fighting game, and like I said before, re-classifying the game as something other than a "fighting game" wouldn't be the stupidest idea I've read on this forum.
Let me know how interested you guys really are in hearing me out. I'll get you guys a link to a video between two top MvC2 players, and I'll analyze it - go step-by-step with what's happening, why it's happening, and what each player is thinking. I'd love to do it if I thought you guys cared. Let me know if you do.
Look, I don't think you realize how much some of us in this discussion know about MvC2. I used to be an addict. I went to SRK.com all the time, I watched the videos, I went to tournaments, and I've seen all the things you've mentioned performed in real life, if not doing it myself. -and I also don't think you realize that those of us willing to discuss the point all agree the MvC2 is a great fun game...just not the "best" 2D fighter of all time.
What I find strange is that you defend all the glitches and gameplay anomalies as some sort of mecca for strategy...it's obvious Capcom didn't really intend most the stuff you see at high level play, but people have spent so much time with the game, and the engine allows for so many variables, that all sorts of weird stuff has come out. Maybe you like that, but it seems more like an easter egg hunt to me. People spend more time developing tricks and patterns than actual strategy, in my opinion. Half the matches I see experts play are constant super-jumping, which is not only a pretty sloppy game "feature" as it is (as a super jump allows you to constantly change direction mid air), but also noticeably "un-strategic", as one player or another is not even visible for the majority of the match.
As for telling us why players are doing things in a match video, I'm not sure what the point would be. Chances are, we've already seen the videos, and if I had a match video of Pong, I could tell you why the players made each move, but that doesn't really prove anything.
But really, I think I already explained MvC2's faults in a previous post. I think the problem now is more how one defines strategy and depth, and how one defines "fighting".
MvC2 has more variables than any other fighter I can think of, and very loose engine mechanics. There is inarguably a lot of content. But does that make it deep? No, I think that makes it complicated.
And bizarrely, for a game with so many variables, it seems like most players, even good ones, have a strategy formulated and devised *before the match*. Matches involve the players trying to control the variables in a way that makes their "strategy" the winning one. It's like a football team that had all it's plays chosen ahead of time, and only differed in the execution. I'm sure that team would not be deemed 'strategic'. I think a game like SF3 provides you all the tools, and a consistent environment, to create and formulate strategies dynamically during a fight, which is where it's depth really lies.
But then again, you were open to the idea of classifying MvC2 as something other than just a fighting game...it seems to me like you want to elevate it on some pedastel, and bestow upon it a genre all unto it's own, like, "The God-King Strategic Combat Game", but it seems more like a shooter/action/fighter hybrid to me. Like I said before, no one's saying it's not entertaining.
But as far as being a nominee for the "Greatest 2D Fighter Ever", there is a remarkably small degree of actual "fighting". Much like how I think SSBM is a great game, it would still be folly to dub it the greatest 3D fighter ever. Your argument about distance games and all that are likewise inaccurate. EVERY fighter I've ever played have distance games, and range is always a factor. In a game like SF3, there's little of strategic value you can do from a full screen away, but then again, the characters aren't flying all over the place, 3 screens up and all that. Urien's honking leg sweep is a range game unto itself. It's all just contextual. I know it's off topic, but games like Tekken and VF, that don't have projectiles of any sort, have some of the deepest range games I've ever seen.
This is slowly degrading into nothing.
I guess I missed where either Apok or StriderKyo mentioned this.Quote:
And the idea of being "honorable," and refraining from the cheap stuff because it somehow makes you a better player (but only if better = stupid).
Yet, oddly enough, all of this can apply to a large number of fighting games.Quote:
What makes MvC2 fun is the strategy. Seeing something new and saying to yourself, "Damn, that's tricky, and hella good. How am I going to beat that?" - and then you come up with a counter. The game is light-years beyond any other fighting game, and like I said before, re-classifying the game as something other than a "fighting game" wouldn't be the stupidest idea I've read on this forum.
Oh, and while I'm at it... We all know VOOT has the deepest range game out there. :D
There's certainly no arguing with that. In fact, VOOT is perhaps the only fighting game in a long time that could stand to be classified as something else, though it is what it is.Quote:
Originally posted by Tain
Oh, and while I'm at it... We all know VOOT has the deepest range game out there. :D
Therein lies our difference. I feel that the moves should be an equal level of usefullness, with no moves dominating over others to that characters rely simply on one and can rip through others with that alone. SFIII has every regular attack respond in such a way that they all have a specific purpose. Many work on a level that are solely good for anti-air, others work for countering, others are good simply for confusion tactics. The regular attacks alone could constitute all the fighting the game would need, but then it intergrates the special attacks to truly flesh out the game. Many special attacks, especially ranged ones, and are useful only in combos, though there are plenty that have range. Attacks to be used to to break through opponents attacking who in turn try to attack ranged can be found in wonderful form in Alex, Oro, and Chun Li (probably more, but I remember these off the top of my head), all of whom have ranged attacks specifically designed to counter ranged attacks. This works both ways, as their anti-ranged ranged attacks (that's an odd classification) can be turned against them, often through ranged attacks. The range game is there, but you have to look for it.Quote:
For me... Everything goes.
Wrong. I've seen infinites both in my own living room and videos on the net (it wasn't me doing this, it was another friend who loves combolicious fighting games, he also showed me an infinite with Hinata in Project Justice. Mr. WhiteFolks showed us an infinite in MvC2, though I have found others). Now, you seem to not grasp what the word "infinite" means. In fighting games, an infinite would be a combo from which 100% damage is given, because it is "infinite", i.e. without end. So I've seen 100% damage combos.Quote:
Re-dizzies, plus the crazy damage scaling (that makes every consecutive hit in a combo less damaging - it's in all Street Fighters) means that any infinite alone with get you, at the most, 60% health on ONE of the three characters. That's 60% of 300%.
Now, you could translate that to 33.3%, which just leads into what I saying before on this. The entire game is based on this, whoever gets the first hit wins. Match starts, characters trade a couple blows, one launches into a combo and the other dies from it. Repeat twice over. In SFIII, yes, combos dealing that much and more do exist. However, one cannot do them continuously like one can in MvC2, in SFIII a single large combo is usually the best that can be done per round (sometimes match), with much more focus on smaller combos. Along with that, parrying allows one to negate block damage, and I find purposefully killing through that stupid. But that's just me (if Capcom would simply have block damage not be able to kill, I'd be a bit happier).
Y'know, if I could figure out how to make VOOT anything BUT a range game, I'd probably like it alot more. I could never get how to effectively close in on an opponent in that game; it was always just me and my opponent shooting at each other from across the level, occasionally getting close enough to do something else.Quote:
Originally posted by Tain
Oh, and while I'm at it... We all know VOOT has the deepest range game out there. :D
What VR do you play as? For some VRs, like Grys-Vok, the only close-combat work they do are evasive moves for getting the hell outta close combat! For some, like Apharmd B, nearly the whole game you'll try to catch them in some CC. Anyway, I usually catch the opponent on landings or on knockdowns. If they try to dash out of there, I'll either follow their dash, or circle-slice. You'd be surprised at how effective that can be. Well, aside from these options, most methods of rounding up rely on who you're playing as, of course.Quote:
Y'know, if I could figure out how to make VOOT anything BUT a range game, I'd probably like it alot more. I could never get how to effectively close in on an opponent in that game; it was always just me and my opponent shooting at each other from across the level, occasionally getting close enough to do something else.
A strict full-range game will get you nowhere in VOOT. Many of the ranged attacks work much better at close range, as too much distance makes it way too easy to dodge attacks. I usually fight about double of close-combat range (CC range being where the VRs activate their CC attack), and try to keep it close to that, only falling back to dodge amongst obstacles when nessecary.Quote:
Originally posted by StriderKyo
Y'know, if I could figure out how to make VOOT anything BUT a range game, I'd probably like it alot more. I could never get how to effectively close in on an opponent in that game; it was always just me and my opponent shooting at each other from across the level, occasionally getting close enough to do something else.
I tend to use... Er, can't remember his name. It's a variation VR, he has the camo pants and uses a dropkick bomb (one of my favorite attacks in the game).
fuck, i can't think of a way to make fun of you at the moment, but man, you're a fuckin idiot.Quote:
Originally posted by gamevet
When I first played Street Fighter III : 3rd Strike, I asked myself: Can a 2-d fighter look any better than this? Then I played Alpha 3 on my Dreamcast. The game is just beautiful, and has all the great gameplay of Street Fighter's of the past. My vote for the best 2-d figter ever!
how the hell did everyone hear let that slide?
Yeah, medium range is nice for most VRs, but some can do full-range quite well. Take Raiden, for example. With his weapons, he can herd up the opponent from far distances quite well, and trick him into getting smacked by his center weapon.Quote:
A strict full-range game will get you nowhere in VOOT. Many of the ranged attacks work much better at close range, as too much distance makes it way too easy to dodge attacks. I usually fight about double of close-combat range (CC range being where the VRs activate their CC attack), and try to keep it close to that, only falling back to dodge amongst obstacles when nessecary.
Apharmd. Now the question: Apharmd B or Apharmd S? They both have the same left weapon, which includes the dropkick bomb (right-turbo LW). Apharmd B has the tongfers, and is the king of CC. Apharmd S is the "heavier" variant, more tooled to combat outside of CC.Quote:
I tend to use... Er, can't remember his name. It's a variation VR, he has the camo pants and uses a dropkick bomb (one of my favorite attacks in the game).
If you were playing as Apharmd B, well, no wonder you say full-range doesn't work to well. :) His right and center weapons are very, very weak, at almost any range. The center weapon is usually only used to offset projectiles or, with some of the turbo and crouching variations, stun the opponent. The left weapon is a strange one, as it's "soccer bomb" variations can be used to knockdown, but other than that, I mainly use it for defense.
I used to play alot of MvsC2 (mostly because it's the only fighting game my friends could understand) and while it was fun, I have to say I enjoy playing SFIII: TS much more.
Quote:
Originally posted by Lucas Barton
fuck, i can't think of a way to make fun of you at the moment, but man, you're a fuckin idiot.
how the hell did everyone hear let that slide?
Someone did'nt, and after pulling out both games, I now realize that Street Fighter 3 has more frames of animation, while Street Fighter Alpha 3 has VGA support.
Now go take your 17 year old smart ass, and go beat off with your powerglove, because it is'nt all that great either.
um... Third Strike has VGA support...
... sure, it looks worse on VGA, but it still supports it...
My favorites (I can't just pick one "best")
*Street Fighter III (2nd Impact, 3rd Strike) - It's just plain all around great.
*KOF '95-'98
*Super Street Fighter II (even over SSFII Turbo)
*Kaiser Knuckle (Global Champion)
*X-Men COTA
Not the best:
*Marvel vs. Capcom 2 (Matches take too long, in my opinion. The damage scaling shouldn't have been so "crazy". I actually prefer the original MvC setup (Three punches, three kicks, and assist attacks that are limited like the KOF Strikers system).
Quote:
Originally posted by FirstBlood
um... Third Strike has VGA support...
... sure, it looks worse on VGA, but it still supports it...
Yeah, you can get VGA support out of all the DC games, with the S-Video to VGA converter. I'll admit Street Fighter III has better composite/S-Video graphics, and it's framerate is phenominal. I played Alpha 3 last, and after pulling out SF3, I retract my statement, that Alpha 3 looks better. It does have a lot more fighters to choose from though.
No, third strike has native VGA support. No converter needed. Too bad they couldn't manage hi res...Quote:
Originally posted by gamevet
Yeah, you can get VGA support out of all the DC games, with the S-Video to VGA converter. I'll admit Street Fighter III has better composite/S-Video graphics, and it's framerate is phenominal. I played Alpha 3 last, and after pulling out SF3, I retract my statement, that Alpha 3 looks better. It does have a lot more fighters to choose from though.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MarkRyan
What makes Third Strike so deep? The same mind games you have in EVERY fighting game? Sure, there's depth there, but that's about it.
Read that last sentence, your head will explode.
I prefer Specineff or Cypher, but since I can never seem to close in on anyone, I usually just fall back on Raiden.Quote:
Originally posted by Tain
What VR do you play as? For some VRs, like Grys-Vok, the only close-combat work they do are evasive moves for getting the hell outta close combat! For some, like Apharmd B, nearly the whole game you'll try to catch them in some CC.
I'll give circle slicing more of a try, although it's pretty tough without twin sticks. The main problem I find is that you dash on 90 degree angles, meaning your opponent can usually get away from you if they really want to. I'm sure this game's great when you can reliably stay on top of someone, I'm just not that good at it.Quote:
Anyway, I usually catch the opponent on landings or on knockdowns. If they try to dash out of there, I'll either follow their dash, or circle-slice. You'd be surprised at how effective that can be. Well, aside from these options, most methods of rounding up rely on who you're playing as, of course.
Even on the sticks, it's kinda hard to do at first.Quote:
I'll give circle slicing more of a try, although it's pretty tough without twin sticks.
Make sure than you push turbo first, followed by the direction. For circle-slices, I usually pull the trigger at the same moment I push the turbo, with the direction pushed shortly after.
Oh, and in case you mainly fight the CPU... The CPU hates CC with a passion. It will do everything it can to avoid CC.
The 90 degree limitation isn't too bad if you keep Watari-dashing, and be sure to keep them in sight with jump-cancels. Eh, you'll get better at it.Quote:
The main problem I find is that you dash on 90 degree angles, meaning your opponent can usually get away from you if they really want to.
Like Mech said, you misunderstood what I'm talking about. I don't care about redizzies, I'm talking about when Iron Man launches->air combo-> uni beam->air dash->repeat ad nauseum, until you're dead. Or when Morrigan floats you up and keeps juggling -air dashing-juggling you until all the earth's electricity has run out and the game finally shuts off. I've had the Iron Man thing done to me, and there used to be a video of the Morrigan infinite on Shoryuken. Your example also breaks down, because the MvC characters are each equal to a round in SF3, not a single energy bar. If SF3 had you losing entire rounds on single combos, then it'd be busted too.Quote:
Originally posted by MarkRyan
First of all, infinites. In MvC2, Capcom implemented re-dizzies. Re-dizzies, plus the crazy damage scaling (that makes every consecutive hit in a combo less damaging - it's in all Street Fighters) means that any infinite alone with get you, at the most, 60% health on ONE of the three characters. That's 60% of 300%. So if you want to compare it to Third Strike, that's a whopping 20% combo right now. Ouch. I think in Third Strike a j.Roundhouse, c.Forward XX Hadoken will do about 20%. Yes, fear the cheesy infinite. It ruins the game entirely.
Except for the infinites, 100%s and unbreakable corner traps. If your idea of a good time is watching some guy slowly whittle your helpless character down to dead because he hit you first, then great. SF3 offers a defensive option for every situation. You honestly canavoid everything, while MvC2 just says "oops, you're in the corner. You suck, you're dead".Quote:
To be honest, the reason I really have no hope for the progression of this conversation is your use of the words "cheesy" and "cheap." If you find effective strategies and techniques to be "cheap," then you're just not playing the same way I am. For me... Everything goes. And that's how it should be. No whining, "OMG, you don't deserve that win, that was cheap!" or "I'm not playing, you're just cheap." That doesn't make playing games fun. And the idea of being "honorable," and refraining from the cheap stuff because it somehow makes you a better player (but only if better = stupid). "Instant Hyper Viper Beams that combo - that's just cheap!" Yeah, and it's also completely avoidable. There is NOTHING in MvC2 that is impossible to beat.
I didn't see anyone criticizing guard breaks, since you're right, they show up in everything, not just Capcom fighters. But since by your own admition you haven't played much Mark of the Wolves or Third Strike, and don't get them, are you really qualified to say MvC2 is "light years ahead" of them?Quote:
Was it really unavoidable when you got your guard broken when your second character dropped in? No. (And if you think the properties behind guard breaking are ONLY in MvC2, then you are mistaken - they apply to all Capcom fighters with air blocking - it's no glitch). What makes MvC2 fun is the strategy. Seeing something new and saying to yourself, "Damn, that's tricky, and hella good. How am I going to beat that?" - and then you come up with a counter. The game is light-years beyond any other fighting game, and like I said before, re-classifying the game as something other than a "fighting game" wouldn't be the stupidest idea I've read on this forum.
Of course we're interested, that's the whole point of this thread. Don't take it personally when we say you're nuts, I mean it like I'd say it to a friend if he told me Oprah was hot. Besides, you are nuts. You're the same guy who told me in GF Tavern back when that Guilty Gear on Playstation was the best fighting game ever made, better than any Street Fighter or SNK game. All the time.Quote:
Let me know how interested you guys really are in hearing me out. I'll get you guys a link to a video between two top MvC2 players, and I'll analyze it - go step-by-step with what's happening, why it's happening, and what each player is thinking. I'd love to do it if I thought you guys cared. Let me know if you do.
Quote:
Originally posted by StriderKyo
No, third strike has native VGA support. No converter needed. Too bad they couldn't manage hi res...
I did'nt know that. I have Double Impact, which does'nt show support on the case, while older games like Soul Caliber do support VGA.
Recently or a long time ago? I didn't see you there too many times if at all.Quote:
You're the same guy who told me in GF Tavern back when that Guilty Gear on Playstation was the best fighting game ever made, better than any Street Fighter or SNK game. All the time.
I think Johnny took the words right from my mouth
"Garou MOTW is above all else. I'm no expert when it comes to the genre, so I can't go into great detail as to why I love the game so much, so I'm just going to say control. It's just very responsive, and intuitive. Honorable mentions go out to Last Blade 2 and SF Alpha 3. Again mainly due to control. "
You know, I really find this funny. I've been playing Garou: Mark of the Wolves Since it's release on NeoMVS. I've played it, stomped it, dug into it & it's still one of my most favorite 2D Fighting games I've ever played.
To be honest tho it doesn't deserve the title of greatest 2D fighter. The game tho popular, fun & good isn't what shouldn't be described as the greatest 2D fighter but the fighters that have lasted not only the test of time but are still enjoyed by people to this day. Only 2 titles get that respect from me. Those are of course...
Super Street Fighter II Turbo & Samurai Shodown II!
Those games set a standard which is what I feel the benchmark of a great 2D fighter should be based upon. Sure you have tagging, grooves, parrys, canceling and all sorts of new features but for me it's those titles that clearly for me had myself coming back to play again & again just for the sake of the game and competition. If anything I love Garou to death it deserves high marks from me but, it's not the greatest....not yet.
Until that day comes it will be a title worthy of the greatest respect from me. Thank you SNK & Capcom for making my days of gaming even more better than ever...
~BonusKun
Hm. I havent read the whole thread, but I mostly want to touch on the SF3:3S vs MvC2 debate. Or just the hating on MvC2 altogether... I would say that people who call MvC2 cheap or repetitive probably have not played it too much. If you want to say guard breaks are cheap, remember that there are a few frames in 3S where the opponent hits the ground from a jump they are completely open to attacks(Its just about as easy to do as guard break in MvC2 imo), its not hard to lead that opening into a combo(Can range from 5-50% of someones life), or even a c.roundhouse with Ryu/Ken(Be about 10% damage to most characters, very easy to do). Compare a guard break in MvC2 with that, the damage ratio's are not too different. MvC2 is also one of the LEAST button masher friendly games out, its not hard for a button masher in CvS2/SF3/Alpha 3 to mash buttons and get lucky a few times using random high-priority moves. In MvC2 its pretty easy to not let a button masher move, because of assists being in the game its much easier to come up with a routine where you almost never get hit. MvC2 also emphasizes(IMO) consistant good play and use of patterns(Because of the way assists affect the fight strategically), whereas other games tend to focus less on that and more on your ability to know what works(Knowing what moves have more priority than others, or when to use them) in a slower 1 on 1 situation. Bah. I dont even know what I am saying, the games are certainly more the same than they are different though. MvC2 just uses a larger scale for everything.
To keep related to the thread, I think the best fighting game ever is probably SF3:3rd Strike or Street Fighter Alpha 3.
I think the greatest and I concur with Bonus is Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo, then Revival since it's arcade perfect(almost).
Next would be CVS2, Alpha 3,Garou, KOF series, GG, GGX, .
Er, I was talking to MarkRyan. You just told me Spider Man was going to be bigger than Attack of the Clones. Actually, you were alot closer than I would have figured.Quote:
Originally posted by Will
Recently or a long time ago? I didn't see you there too many times if at all.
AAAGGHHH!!! Nobody said guard breaks were cheap! We all said they weren't!Quote:
Originally posted by Red_venom
Hm. I havent read the whole thread, but I mostly want to touch on the SF3:3S vs MvC2 debate. Or just the hating on MvC2 altogether... I would say that people who call MvC2 cheap or repetitive probably have not played it too much. If you want to say guard breaks are cheap,
Er, I wouldn't say hitting a guy when he lands from a jump, which has always been in street fighter (and is in MvC as well) and guard breaks in a game where you can hit your opponent 50 times before they can do anything is quite the same thing, but whatever.Quote:
remember that there are a few frames in 3S where the opponent hits the ground from a jump they are completely open to attacks(Its just about as easy to do as guard break in MvC2 imo), its not hard to lead that opening into a combo(Can range from 5-50% of someones life), or even a c.roundhouse with Ryu/Ken(Be about 10% damage to most characters, very easy to do). Compare a guard break in MvC2 with that, the damage ratio's are not too different.
Okay, stop this. Please. You know what happens if you mash in a normal SF game? Nothing. You flail about uselessly with random punches and kicks coming out of you, not going anywhere. Guy blocks, you die. Maybe you'll get an uppercut out. It'll miss.Quote:
MvC2 is also one of the LEAST button masher friendly games out, its not hard for a button masher in CvS2/SF3/Alpha 3 to mash buttons and get lucky a few times using random high-priority moves.
If I sit there mashing buttons in MvC2, all my friends come out and attack my opponent for me. Screen filling projectiles fly out from every orifice. If I jump at the opponent while doing this, I'll get at least a 3-4 hit combo out of it. I know, because that's what I did way back on Marvel Superheroes and I could beat other people who also didn't know how to play the game yet.
Nobody in the history of gaming has won a single round of SF mashing buttons, unless they were playing a paraplegic or someone who's also mashing, so somebody (eventually) has to win.
SF3 mashing = Nothing happens.
MvC2 mashing = All kinds of stuff happens.
You won't win anything in either one mashing, but I've seen friends who never play fighting games get to the third fight against the computer with just Servbot, Sentinel and a whole lot of controller smashing.
Ugogirl! Nobody here's saying MvC's bad, just disputing Mark's argument that it's the best because it's more technical and complex.Quote:
To keep related to the thread, I think the best fighting game ever is probably SF3:3rd Strike or Street Fighter Alpha 3.
I just can't get into this game. I want to, but I find the opposite - the control's not as tight as Garou, KoF or Samsho (which it's clearly trying to be). The game has suck a lightweight feel to it - when I hit someone, it feels like I did it with a feather. Great theme, some cool characters, but I can't see why people think it's great when there's so many fighters I'd put ahead of it on both Geo and DC.Quote:
Originally posted by Shikyoh
I think Johnny took the words right from my mouth
"Honorable mentions go out to Last Blade 2"
Apharmd S, I believe. I've run through most of them, and he seems to fit the way I like to play better then some others. Though I've been meaning to learn Specineff just 'cause he looks so damn cool. I tried to learn Cypher, but his regular attacks were too weak for me, I didn't like the way they worked.Quote:
Originally posted by Tain
Apharmd. Now the question: Apharmd B or Apharmd S? They both have the same left weapon, which includes the dropkick bomb (right-turbo LW). Apharmd B has the tongfers, and is the king of CC. Apharmd S is the "heavier" variant, more tooled to combat outside of CC.
Funnily enough, the only person who said anything about MvC2 being a button-masher was MarkRyan. I then stated it was more a string-memorizer. A more fitting term, I think.Quote:
Originally posted by StriderKyo
Okay, stop this. Please. You know what happens if you mash in a normal SF game? Nothing. You flail about uselessly with random punches and kicks coming out of you, not going anywhere. Guy blocks, you die. Maybe you'll get an uppercut out. It'll miss.
On the concept of button-mashing, a party was held at my house tonight. I didn't want to be there, but wanted to stay and protect my stuff, so I played fighting games (specifically, DOA3 and SFIII:TS) all night, and got a few challengers. Needless to say, they were all more knowledgable about how DOA3 worked then they were on SFIII:TS.
I got a button-masher in SFIII:TS (I use three-round matches, lowest damage setting and largest energy bars, if I remember it all correctly, been a long time since I actually set the options) and for the first time in a long time, fought a newbie at the game. I hadn't realized it before, simply because everyone else I've faced has played Street Fighter at some point to where they had at least a basic idea of the Ken/Ryu move list, but this guy was pure button-masher, nothing but light and medium punches/kicks. He didn't win a single round until the last fight, and I never parried. I picked Hugo for our last match and he picked Gill (it's not like he knew any better), and he won that last fight three to two. Not too shabby considering I had to plow through two energy bars to win a round and was using one of the characters I suck with.
Yes, but the 50% can only be done with the aid of a Super in SFIII, and only certain Supers at that. MvC2 can do 100% with regular moves.Quote:
its not hard to lead that opening into a combo(Can range from 5-50% of someones life), or even a c.roundhouse with Ryu/Ken(Be about 10% damage to most characters, very easy to do).
A point that hasn't been mentioned, desicions. In SFIII, one must choose their Super to use, you don't have access to everything, and must pick what you think will work against your opponent. A little more thought and planning is needed here, as some Supers are almost completely worthless against some opponents, and there's few chain Supers (MvC2, anyone?). This really affects how the Super game works, seeing as how smaller, less powerful Supers can charge up faster to be dispersed throughout regular attacking, while strong ones require more time and attacking/defending to gain access.
Oh, so you want Mortal Kombat II. Go play Mortal Kombat II where all the characters have basically the same moves. You don't want anyone to have an advantage. You'd like them all to be the same. Sounds like fun :).Quote:
Originally posted by MechDeus
I feel that the moves should be an equal level of usefullness, with no moves dominating over others to that characters rely simply on one and can rip through others with that alone.
Don't tell me I'm wrong, you numbwit. Re-dizzies mean that all "infinites" can never be true infinites because the opponent will FLY into the air (RE-DIZZY, get it?) after about 50 hits of any infinite. Did you read that? Fifty hits of an infinite = about 60% damage max. Now STFU.Quote:
Originally posted by MechDeus
Wrong. I've seen infinites both in my own living room and videos on the ... Now, you seem to not grasp what the word "infinite" means. In fighting games, an infinite would be a combo from which 100% damage is given, because it is "infinite", i.e. without end. So I've seen 100% damage combos.
You consider it stupid? Strange, because where I'm from, it's considered intelligent. Your opponent is near death... You have the chance to kill him, and by doing so you win the match. Usually our goal is the win the match. If we throw away the opportunity to kill them with chip damage because we're too damned honorable for that, and we get killed, you know what that makes us? It makes us pretty stupid.Quote:
Originally posted by MechDeus
Along with that, parrying allows one to negate block damage, and I find purposefully killing through that stupid.
No, StriderKyo, you misunderstand. You can't NOT CARE about re-dizzies - they make infinites NOT infinite. That was Capcom's remedy since they KNEW there was no way to tame an engine so robust and flexible. As I said above, re-dizzies make any "infinite" terminate at around 50 hits. And with damage scaling, 50 hits is about 60% damage. Do you get that? Thank you. As far as the damage comparison goes, I think you have a valid point, though since the games handle "matches" so differently (if you compared it straight-forwardly, you'd get messed up when a character survives with 30% health and continues to be a factor even though two different fighters are involved - in other words, even if you win a primary match-up, you don't get your health restored, and you don't lose the advantage you gained).Quote:
Originally posted by StriderKyo
Like Mech said, you misunderstood what I'm talking about. I don't care about redizzies, I'm talking about when Iron Man launches->air combo-> uni beam->air dash->repeat ad nauseum, until you're dead. ... Your example also breaks down, because the MvC characters are each equal to a round in SF3, not a single energy bar. If SF3 had you losing entire rounds on single combos, then it'd be busted too.
I discussed infinites. There's no such thing as a 100% unbreakable trap (or anything even close, short of Strider/Doom, an archaic team). You're not DOA if you get cornered in MvC2. Again, you show how little you know about this game.Quote:
Originally posted by StriderKyo
Except for the infinites, 100%s and unbreakable corner traps. If your idea of a good time is watching some guy slowly whittle your helpless character down to dead because he hit you first, then great. SF3 offers a defensive option for every situation. You honestly canavoid everything, while MvC2 just says "oops, you're in the corner. You suck, you're dead".
I'll quote the post right under this reply so you can see that guard breaks were bitched about. As far as me saying that MvC2 is light years ahead, I think I can safely say that, as far as the evolution of fighting games. Street Fighter III, what, innovated parrying? Other than that, the basic formula is not very different at all from the aged Super Turbo. MvC2 innovates in so many ways. It is unlike any game before it, and that's INCLUDING previous Versus games - MvC1, XSF, MSF - they're all entirely different games than MvC2.Quote:
Originally posted by StriderKyo
I didn't see anyone criticizing guard breaks, since you're right, they show up in everything, not just Capcom fighters. But since by your own admition you haven't played much Mark of the Wolves or Third Strike, and don't get them, are you really qualified to say MvC2 is "light years ahead" of them?
There you go. That's what I responded to.Quote:
Originally posted by Apokryphos
And you say that it's the brokenness that makes MvC2, but the first time I had my incoming character's guard broken by a glitch, then killed by a triple AHVB by another glitch, without me having any chance of avoiding it, well, that's when I said this game has jumped the shark.
Good. Then without further ado...Quote:
Originally posted by StriderKyo Of course we're interested, that's the whole point of this thread. Don't take it personally when we say you're nuts, I mean it like I'd say it to a friend if he told me Oprah was hot. Besides, you are nuts. You're the same guy who told me in GF Tavern back when that Guilty Gear on Playstation was the best fighting game ever made, better than any Street Fighter or SNK game. All the time.
Click here to download the MvC2 video I will, from here-on-out, be discussing.
Here is my analysis of a real MvC2 match. To be honest, there were other matches I'd rather analyze because there's more going on, but this is the best one I have as far as clarity goes (they're all done shaky-cam, and a lot have bad scan lines).
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This match was recorded in a huge tournament, the Midwest Championships, in 2001. Some strategies have evolved since then, but this is still a solid representation of the game. The match is between Viscant and Team Dan, apparently. Viscant is a well-known player from San Diego, who actually got third place in the nationals last year. I don't know where Team Dan is from.
The teams chosen are Doom (B) / Storm (A) / Sentinel (Y) (Viscant), versus Ironan (B) / Storm (B) / Doom (B) (Team Dan). I'll start with the analysis of the match-up first before I delve into the actual fight.
Viscant's team, Doom/Storm/Sent, is a very well-rounded team. There's no character that is used just for their assist (such as Commando, Cammy, and in some cases, Doom). Viscant starts Doom for a couple reasons. Doom is very good at setting the pace of a match by slowing it down enough to get the opponent to get somewhat reckless. Doom's jumping Hard Punch is a great "stay-down" move, and his air Photons ("Pink Shit") are great at doing some bits of chip damage and keeping the opponent at bay. As you'll see, Doom is generally played keep-away style. And Viscant keeps Storm as second for a VERY good reason - her super, Hailstorm, hits everywhere on screen, and when used in a DHC (for example, Doom does his Photon Array super in the air, and then cancels that into Storm's Hailstorm - DHC) Hailstorm is nearly instant (there's one-frame of game action before it comes out). That means that if Viscant sees Team Dan do any sort of move that leaves him unable to block (and can be reacted to), Viscant can do Photon Array and DHC into Hailstorm for a quick and pretty damaging attack - but it costs two super levels (in MvC2, you can build up to five, but start with just one) and he'll have to drop Doom to the rear of the team (though that's not a bad thing - Doom's (B) assist type (anti-air) is a VERY good assist - causes lots of chip damage, and stays on-screen for a long time). When Storm comes out, Viscant has tons of options. Storm is considered by many as the #1 character in the game (usually along with Sentinel). Storm can play a good keep-away game, but she's not going to cause much damage doing so - generally, a keep-away Storm is played at the end of a battle to run down the clock when Storm has the lead. But Storm is also very good at rushing down. She can triangle jump (which you'll see - a super-jump, cancelled into an air-dash going down/forward, with an attack - triangle-jumping is basically a way to jump-in at your opponent, but just a lot quicker). Storm has some good air combos that end in a super to cause solid damage. She has a couple different infinites, but none of them are very practical (they require INSANE precision, where a regular air combo would do as much, if not more damage), except for her Sentinel-only infinite. Storm doesn't really have any bad match-ups. A good Sentinel can go toe-to-toe with her, and a lot of characters can fight her well because they're not particularly weak against her (Magneto, Ironman, Strider, Dhalsim, Cyclops). She's very strong against some other characters, though - Cable, Blackheart, Doom, Spiral (her main strength is being anti-Cable). Another strength of Storm's is her ability to do Typhoon cancelled into Hailstorm. The Typhoon is an unstoppable projectile - it will travel through anything and everything, unlike a fireball that might get stopped by a simple standing Hard Punch by Ironman. And then the Hailstorm, again, hits anywhere on screen. With Typhoon XX Hailstorm, you can catch your opponent off-guard and either hit them directly, or more practically, hit their assists when they call them out. Typhoon XX Hail is a big reason to NOT use your assists wildly versus Storm. And bringing up the rear of the team, Sentinel is just a general power-house. His (Y) assist, the Drones, covers some nice geometry, making it difficult for opponents to triangle-jump in. Plus, Sentinel has super-armor, which allows him to take some hits and STILL be able to pull through with the move (his super-armor is ONLY effective on the ground, though). As a third character, Sentinel has a very safe way to get tagged into the fight - Storm can Typhoon XX Hailstorm, and then DHC into Sentinel's Hyper Sentinel Force. It's a great way to pin down the opponent, and get Sentinel in safely and with an edge. Sentinel, like Storm, has a lot of options. He has great zoning capabilities with his crouching HP (the Mouth-Laser), Rocket Punches and Drones. With his zoning, he can control where the opponent can safely go, and set up for his air stomping (Sentinel's version of rush-down :)). Sentinel's biggest weapon is his awesome Fly mode. Most characters that have Fly mode have a decent amount of start-up lag when they activate Fly, meaning if they fly they're taking a HUGE risk. In fact, the only other flyers that really make decent use of fly are Ironman, and ummmm, Ironman. Doom has some uses, but you rarely see a Doom go into Fly. Anyway, with Sent in Fly mode, you can sit on top of the opponent and stomp in them with flying Light and Hard Kicks. They're good at pinning down the opponent, as well as causing massive damage, since Sentinel can mix up their blocking by Flying, making them block high, de-Flying and making them block low, etc. Sentinel can NOT do this for free, however, because he can't block while flying - his best bet is to be in Unfly mode (it's a technical glitch which allows Sentinel to de-activate Fly and be able to block in the air, whereas normally he would be vulverable all the way until he lands on the ground). How you get into Unfly mode is unimportant right now, but there IS a technique to it, and there ARE techniques to keeping it (because it can be lost very easily). Sentinel's got a lot of strong match-ups, because he causes tons of damage, and has a lot of stamina. He's pretty weak versus Cable, however, though it's not an issue in this fight. That's enough for discussing that team.
Since Team Dan's team already has two of the same characters as Viscant's, I won't discuss them much here. Team Dan starts Ironman for a couple reasons. One, Ironman can build an insane amount of super levels, especially if he gets the opponent into his infinite (which is quite easy). Ironman's infinite is probably the best in the game - I can't think of any better, except maybe Anakaris', but no one uses Anakaris (because he sucks). Ironman's infinite re-dizzies at about 50 hits (which means, after 50 hits of the "infinite" the opponent will fly into the air, and the combo will be broken - the infinite alone cannot kill a character entirely). Ironman also has some solid zoning weapons, such as the Smart Bombs, which drop slowly, so they stay on-screen a pretty long time, AND they make a nice sweep across the screen if you do them from super-jump height. Ironman's jumping Hard Punch is also very good at keeping the opponent from rushing him down too hard - it's very high-priority, it's aim-able (you can go up, down, or sideways with it), and it has a good reach. Ironman has a bunch of different ways to set-up into his infinite, which is generally an Ironman player's primary objective, along with the zoning to keep Ironman safe. He has a lot of mobility via air dashes, and his solid Fly mode. Like Viscant, Team Dan puts Storm second, pretty much for the same reasons. He leaves Doom last, and in this case, Doom is pretty much there for his assist. I'm not terribly knowledgeable about Ironman teams in general, but I'm sure there are some infinite set ups with Doom's assist.
Okay, now onto the fight.
The video starts off about one-second into the fight. You miss the exact beginning, but Viscant starts by calling Sentinel assist and super-jumping with HP. Versus Ironman, this is completely safe - Sentinel takes care of the ground so Ironman can't dash in, and Doom covers the air. When Doom gets to his max height, he tosses out some Pink Shit Photons. Team Dan super-jumps immediately, as well, calling Doom assist, but misses his air dash and gets a superjumping HP instead (air dashes are done by hitting both punches at the same time - he just slipped). Since he couldn't air-dash above Doom, he has to block Doom's sj.HP, and Ironman's assist (Doom) gets hit by both Viscant's Sentinel assist AND his Pink Shit. when Viscant's Doom lands, he does a jumping HP while calling Storm's projectile assist (the invincible Typhoon). The j.HP spreads across the whole screen and is a good way to just sit your opponent back down if they were trying to jump or air dash at you. Team Dan no doubt expects this (it's common Doom-play), and he jumps over Viscant's j.HP, and immediately afterwards super-jumps to get some leverage. He air-dashes over to attempt a cross-up, but Viscant super-jumps himself, keeping Storm safe, and getting the upper-hand on Team Dan. Viscant throws some more Pink Shit, and as he falls back down, Team Dan goes for an air combo - he does a super-jump Weak Punch, but it's blocked (had it landed, he could've either done a nice air combo, or possibly gone for the infinite). Upon landing from the super jump, team Dan tries to land a combo, but Sentinel assist is there to protect Viscant's Doom.
...I just realized I'm only seven seconds into the fight. I'll be less explicit for now...
Okay, seven seconds into the fight. Between seconds 7 and 16, you see Team Dan do some zoning with the Smart Bombs - he super jumps and drops them on Viscant. At about 22 seconds, Team Dan makes Viscant block a j.HP, which Viscant push-blocks, presumably by accident (my guess is he was trying to air dash, but air dash and push-block are both done by hitting both punches). This leaves Doom suspended in the air, and open for an infinite - Team Dan goes for the infinite, but Viscant push-blocks another of his hits (this time on purpose), and as Team Dan makes his second attempt to nail Doom, Viscant quickly whips out Super Photon Array, and it nails Ironman and does a hefty chunk of damage. We're at about 25 seconds into the match. At about 29 seconds into the match, Team Dan pulls a nice corner sequence which does a good amount of chip damage to Viscant, then cancels into Ironman's Proton Cannon. But since Proton Cannon is NOT a safe move if the opponent blocks, he immediately DHCs into Storm's Hailstorm - a nice sequence, took two super meter levels, and did good chip damage. Unforunately, Viscant tried calling in Sentinel for some reason near the end of Ironman's attack - I'm guessing this was an accident, and because of it, Sentinel eats the Hailstorm. Immediately Storm goes into anti-Doom mode. Since Doom can't reach the same heights as Storm can, she can always super-jump and out-chip damage Doom, forcing Doom to play another game. We're at 37 seconds. Expecting more random sj.HPs from Team Dan (as you'll see, random sj.HPs are a common method to build meter with Storm), Viscant does Super Photon Array and cancels into Storm's Hailstorm - had he predicted right, Team Dan's Storm would've eaten tons of damage, but Team Dan was wisely cautious, and gets away with just chip damage. This brings the match to Storm versus Storm - 42 seconds. You see them going back-and-forth a few times, taking turns with their assists and trying to land j.HPs. Team Dan takes the initiative and stops the stand-off with a Typhoon XX Hailstorm, which catches Viscant's Doom assist. There's a lot of mirrored stuff here (which is common in ALL mirror-matches) - both Storm's doing what chip damage they can, and keeping their own assists safe by staying on top of the other guy when they're own assist is in jeopardy. Finally, Viscant jumps up and pulls out a random Lightning Attack, which connects, and then cancels into Storm's Lightning Storm super - we're at 1:17. At 1:20, Team Dan misses the Typhoon XX Hailstorm, and Viscant just jumps over the Typhoon, lands, and combos Team Dan's Storm. After that, Viscant floats over Team Dan to get him to call an assist (as a means of keeping Storm from landing with a combo attempt), but he's baited - Viscant does a whiffed Lightning Storm, and DHCs into Sentinel's Hyper Sentinel Force - it all hits Team Dan's Doom assist, and hurts him pretty badly. We're at 1:29. Viscant flies with Sentinel and tries to stomp Storm to death, but before he can, Team Dan wisely calls in Ironman (and you can see how smart his timing was - he waited for Sentinel to be in the air so that he couldn't easily combo Ironman during his silly taunt). Ironman has some solid opportunities to land the infinite versus Sentinel, so it's a good move. At about 1:39, you can see Team Dan doing some nice zoning against Sentinel with the sj.HPs, and when one of them connects (1:40), he immediately goes for the infinite - but he's too high, and has to settle for an air throw. Between 1:40 and 2:10 there's just a lot of zoning each other going on, and Sentinel finally gains the upper-hand by landing a Frying Pan (j.HP), and then a c.HP (Mouth-Laser). Upon Ironman dying, Viscant goes immediately for the guard break - with Sentinel, if he can get Team Dan to block his j.HP Frying Pan on his way down, Doom won't be able to block until he lands. Viscant manages to get that down, and cancels into Fly to continue the guard break, but the spacing is damned-difficult unless he's got the opponent cornered - that means guard break failed, and we're at 2:12. Team Dan super jumps and expects Viscant to follow him up via Sentinel's Fly, so he quickly does Super Pink Shit, and DHCs to Storm's Hailstorm - remember, that's nearly instant, and Sentinel cannot block while he's flying. Sentinel eats tons of damage at 2:16. Between 2:16 and 2:24, Team Dan is just desperately trying to kill of Sentinel via chip damage - he super jumps up high while calling Doom, and throws out vertical Typhoons. Viscant misses a couple of opportunities to escape, and eventually falls victim to the chip damage. Sentinel dies. As Viscant's Doom drops in after Sentinel's death, Team Dan tries to cross Viscant up by dashing under him and trying to hit him with a standing HK - Storm's launcher. But Viscant's a seasoned player, and when Doom comes out he IMMEDIATELY goes into his Dive Kick, which takes him over Storm's s.HK, and then cancels into Super Pink Shit - at this point you can see Team Dan's Storm start to cry, and Viscant DHCs out to his own Storm via Hailstorm. At 2:31, Team Dan's Storm is dead. All he has left is Doom. At this point, Team Dan is pretty much doomed (seriously, no pun-intended). They beat around the bush a bit, and at 2:52 Team Dan pulls out with some Super Pink Shit to try and cause some chip damage to Viscant. But Viscant dashes under him, super-jumps up, and nails him with a super - peaced.
Actually, I think I mentioned somewhere about the guard-breaking in MvC2 being a glitch, and though I didn't use the term, it's somewhat implied that the use of it is "cheap". -and the guard breaks that people use around here *are* unavoidable. Especially easy to execute is the "guard-break the incoming characters when the previous one dies"...maybe you all know something I don't, but I don't know how you avoid this unless the other guy messes up. In the case of Cable's j.FP into AHVB, even letting yourself get hit guarantees the combo (and the fact that letting yourself get hit is considered a solution is just ludicrous).
Also, maybe there's some terminology confusion here, but I've never heard of guard breaks being in "every Capcom fighter", let alone "all fightes". Some games, like Alpha 3 have it built in as a feature, not a glitch, but I don't recall any guard breaks in SF3 or SF2, unless you're talking about overheads or throws...even though it's quite obvious you're not.
Of course, I wasn't so obsessive about those games back then, so maybe I just missed it. What guard breaks are you guys referring to?
I said equal usefulness, not same style and exectution. But if your defination of "deep" includes "hugely unbalanced", which you pretty much said (as much as me stating what you suggested), then so be it.Quote:
Originally posted by MarkRyan
Oh, so you want Mortal Kombat II. Go play Mortal Kombat II where all the characters have basically the same moves. You don't want anyone to have an advantage. You'd like them all to be the same. Sounds like fun :).
Then explain why the 100%s do 100%. Btw, this also includes moves which don't create re-dizzies, such as an alternating attack repeated back and forth so as to create an infinite, where the opponent never leaves the ground.Quote:
Don't tell me I'm wrong, you numbwit. Re-dizzies mean that all "infinites" can never be true infinites because the opponent will FLY into the air (RE-DIZZY, get it?) after about 50 hits of any infinite. Did you read that? Fifty hits of an infinite = about 60% damage max. Now STFU.
I consider block-damage kills stupid in their exectution. They're there, so take advantage of them, I'm not saying stop, I'm refering to Capcom to stop. One of the reasons I brought it up is because of the huge amounts of block damage that can be dealt out in 2D fighting games (SFIII can also deal quite a bit with some Supers, though MvC2 again doles out way more).Quote:
You consider it stupid?
I believe the term you're looking for is "glitchy". But then, I guess it's that well-tuned nature of it that helped "tame" Cammy getting stuck in the ceiling and Gambit locking onto Servbots for three minutes.Quote:
That was Capcom's remedy since they KNEW there was no way to tame an engine so robust and flexible.
Yeah, real stable.
There are a number of ways to avoid the guard break by Cable you just cited. Taking the hit IS an option - if they don't expect you to take the hit, then they miss with the Hyper Viper Beam. If they expect it, then you get comboed - it's a risk and chance either way. If you think that taking the hit is ridiculous it's only because you're not used to even being confronted with the situation.Quote:
Originally posted by Apokryphos
In the case of Cable's j.FP into AHVB, even letting yourself get hit guarantees the combo (and the fact that letting yourself get hit is considered a solution is just ludicrous).
Also, maybe there's some terminology confusion here, but I've never heard of guard breaks being in "every Capcom fighter", let alone "all fightes". Some games, like Alpha 3 have it built in as a feature, not a glitch, but I don't recall any guard breaks in SF3 or SF2, unless you're talking about overheads or throws...even though it's quite obvious you're not.
Actually, the guard break versus Cable is a lot more complicated than I just described. There's another option - push block the j.HP butllet Cable shoots - you'll freeze in the air. From there, it depends on your character. You could air dash, fly, teleport, do some move that re-positions you. A lot of the time you WON'T be able to avoid the AHVB entirely, but you sure as Hell can do something about letting him connect three of them on you. Of course, you could avoid the situation almost entirely by doing a safe DHC out to your next character - it'll cost two super levels, but at least you're safe. So many options.
As far as it being in every Capcom game, the logic is this. The way a guard break works in MvC2 is that during a normal jump, you are limited to performing ONE action - block, normal attack, super attack. Of course with all the cancelling you can do, you can stretch your ONE action to include a couple (i.e. you can block the j.HP from Cable, and still be able to cancel with Fly). However, you can NOT cancel anything into a block... Which means that if you block once during your normal jump, you cannot block for the remainder of that jump, until you land. MvC2 sets up some pretty convinient situations where you can really take advantage of this game engine nuance. The properties apply to all Street Fighters that have air blocking.
You did just read what I wrote, didn't you? There are NO 100% infinites in the game, save perhaps Anakaris', though it's hardly even a true infinite.Quote:
Originally posted by MechDeus
Then explain why the 100%s do 100%. Btw, this also includes moves which don't create re-dizzies, such as an alternating attack repeated back and forth so as to create an infinite, where the opponent never leaves the ground.
Read this.
When a character gets hit a bunch consecutively, as in an infinite, no matter where they are on the screen, after a while they will RE-DIZZY. How many times would you like me to type that? RE-DIZZY. They FLY INTO THE AIR SO THAT THE COMBO ENDS. YOU CANNOT AVOID IT, YOU CANNOT GET RID OF IT.
Oh wow, that all got posted while I was doing stuff and typing, so I was sorta oblivous to it when I posted. But yeah, I still want to know about all these alleged guard breaks.
Also, that was a very nice break down of the match. I read something very similar from the actual players at SRK about a tournament CvS2 match a while back, which was cool because they told what they were thinking at certain moments. Although you did a nice job, chances are there as alot going on mentally that an observer wouldn't ever know.
Oh wait a minute, I'm talking about MvC2 here :D
Okay, just kidding, but compared to something like SF3 or Tekken (which I know I shouldn't even bring up), MvC2 doesn't rely much on subtley. Everything is pretty much right there on the screen, it's usually just a matter of how difficult it is to counter, or in many cases, actually perform. I don't have the time to discuss this endlessly, since it's clear that MarkRyan will always think MvC2 is the greatest, and I never will, but I just don't see the actual depth of gameplay being as satisfying as the more refined fighters.
I mentioned this earlier, but no one seemed to notice, but there is a definite difference between something having depth, and something being complicated. Your match breakdown was an excellent way of detailing how *complicated* MvC2 is. Oh, I know the game has depth, but it's mired beneath an unrefined engine and a plethora of technical anomalies that only players with an unhealthy love for the game will have access to.
Also, a long match analysis doesn't really prove anything. I could write an essay on the delicate interplay of offense and defense in a tournament level bomberman match. Or rather, an SF3 match, or even a light-weight game like MK2. The fact is, when people are *in* to something enough, strategies will continue to develope and new things will be discovered. Most games simply lack the followers to explore them so devoutly, but this is why even the crappiest games can be fun with human competition.
And, if you think it fitting to use that video match a reference material, it is in my personal opinion that much of what happened in that match was simply not much fun, in regards to a fighting game. I don't want to break it down point by point, but I think the abundance of super jumping is pretty symptomatic of the loose "fighting" generally found in MvC2. How super jumping is a cop-out solution by Capcom isn't really the issue (even though it ires me), so I won't extrapolate, but ultimately, all that super jumping is just not fun. But it's necessary.
Oh, and those low-res sprites just look nasty over the 3D backgrounds. So MvC2 *can't* be the greatest :p
edit: Damn it, it just happened again. Anyway, that's exactly how I thought guard breaks work, and it hardly applies to all capcom fighters. It's fine that solutions sorta exist, but the fact that strategies are based around a glitch is just something we shouldn't have to put up with in the first place. Granted, only people with an encyclopedic knowledge of MvC2 will be executing guard breaks and escapes *on purpose*, but they happen often enough during during casual to advanced play to make the game sloppy.
Seriously, what is this definite difference between deep gameplay and complicated gameplay? I mean, if only those players with an "unhealthy love for the game" have access to certain aspects of the gameplay in Marvel vs. Capcom 2, then how can you question the depth? I really don't get it.Quote:
Originally posted by Apokryphos
I mentioned this earlier, but no one seemed to notice, but there is a definite difference between something having depth, and something being complicated. Your match breakdown was an excellent way of detailing how *complicated* MvC2 is. Oh, I know the game has depth, but it's mired beneath an unrefined engine and a plethora of technical anomalies that only players with an unhealthy love for the game will have access to.
Mark's breath smells like cat food.
Hah hah, what's that mean?Quote:
Originally posted by Will
Mark's breath smells like cat food.
I can't believe this has turned into YET ANOTHER MVC2 debate...just play what you like :) personally, now that I got a DC stick I'm absolutly loving SF3:TS not to mention I'm getting back into all my old fighters that I haven't touched for a while. But to answer the question SF3:TS
What stick did you get, BooMsta?
I mannaged to snag hold of an official DC arcade stick from PaCrappa, now all I need is another one...
Argh, can't seem to download the vid, so I'll just go by your description. You're right, they're obviously using more of a positional game than I usually see. The fact that it largely seems to consist of super jumping and projectile traps doesn't get me jazzed, though. But that's just me. I also think, as Apok said, that you could break down a Violence Fight match in much the same way, with certain characters matching well against others, and certain moves having openings.
The game still doesn't require single frame reactions like SF3 does, but that's a pretty pointless argument, since only superhuman players can parry and kara at that level anyway. The hit detection also isn't as fine-tuned, and MvC2 doesn't force you to learn every character's moves, (as being able to parry with any consistency does) only their tendencies. But with its roster, that's probably a good thing. I do like the push-block, which has been in the series for quite a while.
With the exception of the infinites, though, playing MvC2 at a competent level is alot easier than SF3. Learn the right traps, how to switch up characters and you're halfway there. There's no shortcuts to playing well with SF3's red/blue parries, kara throwing and variable chains, only practice. But that's a matter of preference. Speaking of infinites...
I'm sorry, but you're wrong. I've had Iron Man do a 100% to me, using fly/unfly/airdash juggles. I've also seen videos of Morrigan doing an endless juggle with the same trick. Not as easy as Iron Man's, but still very possible. That video and a few others like it used to be up on Shoryuken.com before they melted down. Unfortunately I can't seem to find it on the web, and I have no reason to stockpile such things myself.Quote:
originally posted by MarkRyan
You did just read what I wrote, didn't you? There are NO 100% infinites in the game, save perhaps Anakaris', though it's hardly even a true infinite.
Read this.
When a character gets hit a bunch consecutively, as in an infinite, no matter where they are on the screen, after a while they will RE-DIZZY. How many times would you like me to type that? RE-DIZZY. They FLY INTO THE AIR SO THAT THE COMBO ENDS. YOU CANNOT AVOID IT, YOU CANNOT GET RID OF IT.
None of us ever said there was no strategy in MvC2, and you've done a good job of demonstrating that there is. But again, I'll point to the layers of mindgame added by the parry system, and how it radically alters the fighting game concept as the source of the bulk of SF3's depth. With a tighter game system as well, you're more able to directly control space than in MvC2, which emphasizes quick decision making, rather than just running to the other side of the screen while your opponent is 80 feet up.
I also have problems with the super jump zoning/hour long combo fundamentals of the game, which effectively take one player out of the action for long stretches, but I realize some think that's rad.
And besides, that soundtrack's still horrible:D
It's streaming, if you're just trying to download it. Just click and watch.Quote:
Originally posted by StriderKyo
Argh, can't seem to download the vid, so I'll just go by your description.
There was tons of keep-away tactics (one of the reasons why I like parrying and SFIII's more CC-focused style), I started wondering how many times Doom was going to leap into the air and shoot. They had him do that more times in that match then I've used a Hadoken with Ryu outside a combo in SFIII:TS in the last month.Quote:
The fact that it largely seems to consist of super jumping and projectile traps doesn't get me jazzed, though.
All I got was "Windows Media Player Error. Unable to access this media. You may not be connected to the network." Except I am.Quote:
Originally posted by MechDeus
It's streaming, if you're just trying to download it. Just click and watch.
Hrm, don't know what it is. Just tried it again and it's still working for me.Quote:
Originally posted by StriderKyo
All I got was "Windows Media Player Error. Windows Media Player is unable to open this file. You may not be connected to the network." Except I am.
**Boards being slow so skipping to the end**
Street Fighter 2 Turbo
King of the Fighters 98
Street Fighter 3: Third Strike
Super Street Fighter 2: Turbo
Samurai Showdown 2
And HOPEFULLY....No one said MVC2. It can be your favorite.....but then of course people also like Frogger.
Worst.
Fighting.
Game.
Ever.
Er, no, nobody said MvC2 at all...(puts past behind him)Quote:
Originally posted by Sl1p
**Boards being slow so skipping to the end**
And HOPEFULLY....No one said MVC2. It can be your favorite.....but then of course people also like Frogger.
Worst.
Fighting.
Game.
Ever.
:lol: Funnier then TNL posters being oblivious to Zidane's love of MGS:SOL...Quote:
Originally posted by Sl1p
And HOPEFULLY....No one said MVC2.
...
Looks like I missed something D=
...Quote:
Marvel vs. Capcom 2 is undoubtedly the best fighting game ever made. Now I can understand getting frustrated with the game easily... It's a VERY different game than your typical fighter, and if you wanted to re-classify it entirely, I wouldn't object. It's much more strategic than any other fighting game, much more complex, and ultimately more fun for those that get into it.
Excuse me while I dial out to Australia....
I literally know 8 year olds who are "good" at MVC2 because they are good at memorizing how to do stupid combo's, corner traps, weird glitches and other things.
I put good in quotations because being "good" at MVC2 is like being "good" at breakout. Can you make the ball hit the paddle? VERRRYYY GOOOOOOD!!!!!!!
Oh! And I can't believe I forgot SFA2! Yes, custom combos were cheap as hell (CC, Blow through whatever attack, trip, insert combo here), but it was still a solid game.
Urban Champion...shit, even that takes more skill than MVC2. It has more depth in the fact that you can dodge back tapping backwards alone XD
:lol: yea Hadoken have become useless in 3rd Strike THANK GOD! I use Ryu and I don’t even use fireballs in combo, there are better more powerful moves to comboQuote:
Originally posted by MechDeus
I started wondering how many times Doom was going to leap into the air and shoot. They had him do that more times in that match then I've used a Hadoken with Ryu outside a combo in SFIII:TS in the last month.
Best 2D fighting game ever? Vampire Savior, bitches. Boo-yah. :)
Runner ups? Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo, Marvel Super Heroes, KoF '95/'98, Street Fighter Alpha 2, MVC2.
Not necessarily. ;)Quote:
Originally posted by MajinRyu
yea Hadoken have become useless in 3rd Strike...
I just find it funny that MarkRyan doesn't know what the word "infinite" means.
Oh, and btw, MvC2 ==> worst fighting game ever.
It was great until we all learned how to play it.