Amnesty International's "Unsubscribe" Campaign: Voluntary Torture

I haven't renewed my Amnesty International membership yet this year and now I have a reason to worry instead of just a nagging feeling of guilt. The group, recipient of the 1977 Nobel Peace Prize, has filmed spots where actors/performance artists are tortured to show what our governments are doing to interrogate some prisoners. There is a very disturbing spot up now where an artist is willingly put into stress positions over a six-hour period. There will be another spot released to cinemas on May 12 that shows a voluntary participant being briefly subjected to waterboarding.

As much as I hate terrorism (and performance art for that matter), I find the even mildly routine use of these methods incompatible with American ideals. We were told Abu Ghraib was just an anomaly and we have let many transgressions slide, but we need to make a real change with this election. There's a point where we have to stop worrying about our TVs, cell phones, and Gamerscores long enough to make sure we are doing at least something to make the world a more humane place.

I'm not against torture. I should be, but I'm not.

I feel the same.

I wish I could care, I really do...but I don't.

Sometimes I wish I could change the fact that I care about myself so much more than others, but I can't just force it.

I blame TNL.

You're mistaken. I care deeply about the subject but I'm not against its use in warfare. If only for the sole benefit of making our soldiers feel like they're making a difference.

Not like the terrorists are torturing our people either.

That's not the point.

The fact that we do this kind of thing is bullshit.

I don't care if it saves American lives, it's wrong.

No. The point is .. whats fair in war?

Nothing.

The terrorists torture our guys. We should be able to torture theres.

That's bullshit justification.

"Well, the terrorists rape our women..."

If we stoop to the same level of our enemies, then we have no justification to denounce their actions. We're just as bad as they are.

America is better than that. We're not some 3rd world rag tag group of terrorists. We're the best fucking country in the world and need to lead by example.

Jack Bauer does it the best.

If torturing some will actually lead to stopping something that would kill many, I am not against it. But if it would lead to nothing then whats the point.

Honestly, I can't wait until circumstance will let me move away from here.

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Originally Posted by Advocate

The terrorists torture our guys. We should be able to torture theres.

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This means we can torture any brown people we find... right?

We're Americans, we're supposedly the good guys.
Yea, we're going to do it anyway, we should just dispense with the pretense and allow them to go full on to achieve optimal results. We've lost our position as leaders of the world and aren't going to care about reclaiming it.

Tough times call for tough measures. I'm for moderate physical pressure. I used to do charity work for Amnesty International (producing radio shows against torture), until it dawned on me just how biased they were. In Europe they probably market themself differently, than on your side of the ocean. They strike me as being mainly an anti-american and anti-zionist organisation, and they always side with our worst enemies.

You can't be a real person, right?

Oh but I am, and I'm entitled to my opinion. I do respect yours.

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Originally Posted by dakidski

They strike me as being mainly an anti-american and anti-zionist organisation, and they always side with our worst enemies.

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Your opinion on torture is fine, but this statement seems pretty silly.

Torture is never permissible. It is anathema to our republic, our Constitution, and to the concept of universal human rights it helped inspire. Torture will not win the "war on Terror." Only under steadfast adherence to our national principles of justice, equality, and dignity will we prevail.

p.s. See my sig.

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Originally Posted by icarusfall

Your opinion on torture is fine, but this statement seems pretty silly.

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yeah, well, I'm a very dramatic person! Perhaps I should clarify: My perception is, that they are extremely selective where they focus their criticism. I'm quite confident about their anti-american/israel bias, they know their european customer base very well, and aim to please them. Maybe, in the future, I'll translate some of the marketing they don't wan't Americans to know about.

Biff posts are a kind of torture, but those aren't illegal.

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Originally Posted by MarsKitten

Yea, we're going to do it anyway, we should just dispense with the pretense and allow them to go full on to achieve optimal results. We've lost our position as leaders of the world and aren't going to care about reclaiming it.

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Oh rly? Who is, then? The Chinese? The Germans? The French or the Brits? The fucking Canadians?

You're delusional.

According to the interview with the guy who played the prisoner he only did that for a few minutes at a time, not six straight hours.

Still, interesting video.

6 hours or best for the tough guy.

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Originally Posted by dakidski

Maybe, in the future, I'll translate some of the marketing they don't wan't Americans to know about.

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Please do.

Torture should not happen, at all. Just because our enemies do it is not a reason that we should. America should be better than that.

Key word being should.

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Originally Posted by sleeve

Torture is never permissible. It is anathema to our republic, our Constitution, and to the concept of universal human rights it helped inspire. Torture will not win the "war on Terror." Only under steadfast adherence to our national principles of justice, equality, and dignity will we prevail.

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Permissible isn't the question anymore, that era is over. Expediency is the word of the day. The better argument in my mind is whether it hurts our causes where public opinion matters when we torture. I think we were better able to accomplish our political goals when we were considered the world leader in human rights unquestioningly. We traded that for whatever information torture has or will yield us. I think that was a bad trade.

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Originally Posted by Rich

Oh rly? Who is, then? The Chinese? The Germans? The French or the Brits? The fucking Canadians?

You're delusional.

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Doesn't matter, we're not anymore, there's a void left by the fact that we're not the world leaders on human rights anymore. We were at one point because we used our political/military/economic might at one time to do human rights as a counter to the communists. We've kinda abandoned that with the cold war. The fact that we bandied about the Geneva conventions and at least gave lip service to them was something.

As for delusional I challenge your credentials to make such a claim.

Human rights doesn't mean shit when it comes to leading the world.

The U.S. is undoubtedly still the leader of the world politically and economically and only recently can you even make a case for the EU/EEC.

I promise you that torturing a few scumbags isn't going to change that.

We've always tortured, we just don't hear about it as much when a Democrat is running the show.

Oh for the love of god.

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Originally Posted by SpoDaddy

We've always tortured, we just don't hear about it as much when a Democrat is running the show.

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No other president has made such a big deal trying to legalize torture. Yeah we had shit like the school of the americas but this is hurting our world position like nothing else on the human rights front.

As for economic/military, yeah we're still #1 for a bit longer till china decides to catch up.

No other President has felt the need to legalize torture. By most accounts we tortured a lot more during the cold war than now.

Yeah but we never got called on that shit, nor had our names attached to torture like we do now.

China will not catch up the US in terms of economics and by association, military.

Well, unless we put a (way left) Democrat in office. Then we can get on our pedestal and pretend that human rights effects our position in the world in real terms and other countries' view of us matters in, again, real terms.

As much as our economy is in the shitter thanks to the current crisis (which is the result of laissez-faire moreso than the Republicans) it will be rectified and Europe is hurting too.

And besides, even if China caught up to us (which they won't, because lets face it, their economy is pegged to ours)...OMG THEIR HUMAN RIGHTS RECORD IS DEPLORABLE.

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Originally Posted by SpoDaddy

We've always tortured, we just don't hear about it as much when a Democrat is running the show.

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Originally Posted by Rich

Well, unless we put a (way left) Democrat in office.

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You two go have fun together now.

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Originally Posted by MarsKitten

Yeah but we never got called on that shit, nor had our names attached to torture like we do now.

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That's a PR issue.

Look we've let it get to the point where it affects how people perceive us. We've got generals speaking out against it, presidents defending it, pictures coming out of gitmo and abu grab. Obviously this is a bigger issue than its been in a long while and is hurting our credibility while no solid gains have been made from torture yet.

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Originally Posted by SpoDaddy

That's a PR issue.

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What does Melf have to do with this?

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Originally Posted by Advocate

What does Melf have to do with this?

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Everything.

China won't grow from an economics standpoint unless other first-world countries decide to lay down and let China take in more of the world's resources. Until that happens, China ain't gonna jump up in that category.

When China allowed American Car companies to start selling cars in their country. That industry boomed HUGE. They are now debuting cars for America over in China (ex: The new Buick). SUPER CHEAP labor and a whole market ripe for American and Japanese cars.

What the hell does that have to do with anything?

Tommy Tallarico has no respect, patience, understanding, or care for anyone that condones, performs, promotes, or justifies any form of torture for any reason that isn't related to sexual fetishes. I can't define one as a human being if they would accept torture.

Tommy Tallarico

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Originally Posted by sleeve

Torture is never permissible. It is anathema to our republic, our Constitution, and to the concept of universal human rights it helped inspire. Torture will not win the "war on Terror." Only under steadfast adherence to our national principles of justice, equality, and dignity will we prevail.

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This is the only acceptable answer.

The obvious trend here is that it's the intelligent members of the board, and bbobb, coming out on the right side of this issue.

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Originally Posted by MarsKitten

As for economic/military, yeah we're still #1 for a bit longer till china decides to catch up.

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Yeah, not to beat a dead horse, but they did decide that about 200 years ago. They still aren't all that close.

Fuck torture.

Say fuck torture all you want, but its still a politically viable idea in the united states because enough people would tolerate it.
/against torture but has no illusion that we'll ever stop doing it.

If it keeps our side's morale up, torture them to your heart's content.

There's more important things than your troops morale.

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Originally Posted by Razor Ramon

If it keeps our side's morale up, torture them to your heart's content.

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This is quite possibly the most offensively stupid thing I've ever seen. Torture does as much psychological damage to the person doing it as to the victim. It's the surest way to ruin a soldier's morale, for life.

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Originally Posted by arjue

There's more important things than your troops morale.

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We all have our priorities.

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Originally Posted by The Gas

This is quite possibly the most offensively stupid thing I've ever seen. Torture does as much psychological damage to the person doing it as to the victim. It's the surest way to ruin a soldier's morale, for life.

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Thank you, Dr. Phil.

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Originally Posted by Razor Ramon

If it keeps our side's morale up, torture them to your heart's content.

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This is flat out deplorable. Absolutely nothing can excuse this kind of thinking.

link

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Originally Posted by USAF Col Morris Davis, Ret., Chief Prosecutor at Guantanamo from 2005-07

TWENTY-SEVEN years ago, in the final days of the Iran hostage crisis, the C.I.A.’s Tehran station chief, Tom Ahern, faced his principal interrogator for the last time. The interrogator said the abuse Mr. Ahern had suffered was inconsistent with his own personal values and with the values of Islam and, as if to wipe the slate clean, he offered Mr. Ahern a chance to abuse him just as he had abused the hostages. Mr. Ahern looked the interrogator in the eyes and said, “We don’t do stuff like that.”

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Moral High Ground FTMFW.

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Originally Posted by Advocate

No. The point is .. whats fair in war?

Nothing.

The terrorists torture our guys. We should be able to torture theres.

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Don't be a fucking idiot.

We HAVE to have rules in war. There's a reason we don't allow glass bullets, indescriminate bombing, targeting of civilians, refusing to fight under a flag or wearing a uniform, torture, slave labor of POWs, or any of the other items prohibited in the Geneva Conventions.

Without rules, war will become more heinous, gruesome, despicable, and inhumane than it already is.

Without rules, war will become unspeakably evil.

Proof?

Witness those wars where combat was waged with no holds barred: sub-Saharan Africa, the Eastern Front, Iran-Iraq, the Eastern Front, Nanching, the Eastern Front, Guadalcanal (pre-US restraint), the Eastern Front...you get the idea.

To use a quick example, in Guadalcanal (fought in '42 b/4 the US had any Pacific victories and WWII very much in doubt) the USMC was committing gross atrocities (shrinking heads of Japanese dead, taking body "medals" like ears, hands, etc.). The war was turning into a contest of cruelty with the Japanese bayoneting live captives and the Americans taking trophies. Fortunately, the US brass got wind of this and put an end to it (from the US side at least).

If we take the "anything goes" approach to war, there is no limit to the suffering that will be unleashed on combatants and civilians.

There will be no limit to the unspeakable evil that will occur.

War is precisely when we should be concerned about what's "fair" and what is not allowed because so much is at stake.

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Originally Posted by The_Meach

link



Moral High Ground FTMFW.

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That story is more badass than the seal who threw himself on a gernade.

American Heroes, imo.

I've been called a "fucking traitor" on these boards for voicing my opinion on the matter in the past, but oh well.

Torture, in and of itself, has no place in modern warfare. It has been proven time and again that your chances of getting legitimate, credible information from a person receiving torture are no greater than any other coercive measure.

That having been said, I see no benefit in announcing such a policy to the international community. If we remain silent on the issue, and keep our high-road ways to ourselves, it gives us a more intimidating posture in the face of our enemies.

The democratic countries that are most likely to observe the terms of the Geneva Conventions are least likely to be our enemies in the foreseeable future. While I'm not in favor of resorting to such barbarism, trumpeting our idealism to the enemy will only make matters worse.

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Originally Posted by squall_vb

Torture, in and of itself, has no place in modern warfare. It has been proven time and again that your chances of getting legitimate, credible information from a person receiving torture are no greater than any other coercive measure.

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Actually, your "chances" are worse.

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Originally Posted by squall

The democratic countries that are most likely to observe the terms of the Geneva Conventions are least likely to be our enemies in the foreseeable future.

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Yeah...

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Originally Posted by squall

While I'm not in favor of resorting to such barbarism, trumpeting our idealism to the enemy will only make matters worse.

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I'm not following you. If we renounce torture things will only get worse?

God damn, I really hope some of you guys are posting "internet personality" bad-guy schtick.

As for our country, I can only hope the next prez brings the executive office back to where it should be.

Bush has been doing terrible things with power he shouldn't even have.

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Originally Posted by squall_vb

The democratic countries that are most likely to observe the terms of the Geneva Conventions are least likely to be our enemies in the foreseeable future.

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Okay, but we don't just need to keep them from becoming our enemies, we need to keep them from renouncing us as allies. If we let the world think we torture, how eager do you think the openly civilized democracies will be to come to our aid the next time we have a major crisis?

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Originally Posted by dakidski

yeah, well, I'm a very dramatic person! Perhaps I should clarify: My perception is, that they are extremely selective where they focus their criticism. I'm quite confident about their anti-american/israel bias, they know their european customer base very well, and aim to please them. Maybe, in the future, I'll translate some of the marketing they don't wan't Americans to know about.

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So you're saying they're for the torture of Americans and Zionists? That's what you're saying? That would be a bias..

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Originally Posted by SpoDaddy

We've always tortured, we just don't hear about it as much when a Democrat is running the show.

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Well, I'm convinced. Clearly, because both parties utilize torture, that makes it right.

How quickly the feeble minded idiots change their tune.
The same ones who blasted me when I said the US was indeed torturing people a few years ago and who said the US would NEVER do such a thing are now the ones defending the use of torture and calling it necessary.

You guys make me sick.

Oh BTW Dakidski, do you respect my opinions?

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Originally Posted by icarusfall

I don't care if it saves American lives

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It would be tough to make a case that it does.

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Originally Posted by StriderKyo

It would be tough to make a case that it does.

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I agree - but that's the justification used.

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Originally Posted by Almaci

How quickly the feeble minded idiots change their tune.
The same ones who blasted me when I said the US was indeed torturing people a few years ago and who said the US would NEVER do such a thing are now the ones defending the use of torture and calling it necessary.

You guys make me sick.

Oh BTW Dakidski, do you respect my opinions?

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always mate.

EUROTRASH ARGUMENT GO!

Nah, Dakidski`s ass is still red from the spankings I gave him last time.

Almaci, get over yourself. You've been living in my shadow since I got here.

Almaci+g0zen are the TNL Weather Underground.

You have no idea who The Weather Underground were, don't front.

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Originally Posted by dakidski

Almaci+g0zen are the TNL Weather Underground.

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Piece of northern Eurotrash acting as if he understands THE WORLD again.

Just pathetic.

Hey its my oppinion and you respect it.

I think if anyone here were to be capable of blowing shit up in the name of something it'd be me.

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Originally Posted by g0zen

You have no idea who The Weather Underground were, don't front.

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I'm willing to bet you're right. However, you're not even on that level.

I never said I was. I'm not a terrorist.

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Originally Posted by The_Meach

Don't be a fucking idiot.

We HAVE to have rules in war.

Without rules, war will become more heinous, gruesome, despicable, and inhumane than it already is.

Without rules, war will become unspeakably evil.

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Like what? Killing innocent people who obviously aren't soldiers and are targets of fanaticism? Like blowing up two office buildings with white collar workers in NYC? Like blowing up restaurants and malls in Israel, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc... with innocent men, women, and children? Like that?

War has already lost its rules. Long ago. And if you think any of the so-called "civilized" nations of the world haven't been engaging in torture for centuries then you're seriously naive and uninformed.

What jingoistic bullshit. It's the same kind of 'well we were hit first' whining the terrorists themselves use to justify their heinous actions. No amount of claiming outrages of the past changes the fact that if we engage in torture and do not work to prevent it then we're no longer Americans, we're just the better equipped terrorists. So fine, scream and cry about how they did this so it's fine for us to do it now, but don't call yourself a patriot. Because you're anything but. You're the kind of person Jefferson and Paine loathed with every fiber of their being.

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Originally Posted by Advocate

Not like the terrorists are torturing our people either.

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the terrorists hijacked planes full of civilians and flew them into buildings. i guess we should do that too.

almaci is owning everyone in his own head

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Originally Posted by g0zen

What jingoistic bullshit. It's the same kind of 'well we were hit first' whining the terrorists themselves use to justify their heinous actions. No amount of claiming outrages of the past changes the fact that if we engage in torture and do not work to prevent it then we're no longer Americans, we're just the better equipped terrorists. So fine, scream and cry about how they did this so it's fine for us to do it now, but don't call yourself a patriot. Because you're anything but. You're the kind of person Jefferson and Paine loathed with every fiber of their being.

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Wow.

Please read and then re-read my post and tell me exactly where I advocated or condoned torture, the use of torture, or anything of the sort. All I said is that it exists and it's been a part of this and every government for hundreds, if not thousands, of years and nothing you can say is going to change that fact. There are no rules in war - and the ones that do, supposedly, follow the rules bend them and break them at every turn possible in order to satisfy their own needs.

And then jump off of your fucking unintuitive soap box and into a fucking lake.

You have absolutely no idea what the fuck you're talking about. Stop.

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Originally Posted by g0zen

You have absolutely no idea what the fuck you're talking about. Stop.

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Right. Keep living in your little dream world. I hear it's nice there.

Edit:

Torture in the Civil War

WMD's / Poison Gas in World War I

You're not going to debate war ethics in World War II, I hope?

Torture by the French in the Algerian War (1940's/1950's)

Vietnam, 2005

Torture as a U.S. policy in the Vietnam War

Torture in the Korean War

From Torture and Punishment in Elizabethean Times:

"Torture has been used for at least 2,000 years and has been widespread. Early Greek and Roman laws specified that only slaves could be tortured, but soon freemen could be tortured in cases of treason. The right to torture slaves was abolished in Roman law in AD 240. In the Middle Ages, torture was included in proceedings of the Catholic Church, which legally employed torture to obtain confessions."

Would you like me to provide examples from each and every war of the past two thousand years to further convey the fact that I know of what I speak and you don't? Perhaps you should step aside with a little humility.

g0zen hasn't debated whether or not these things happen, he's just calling you out on the idea of supporting the continued role of torture and garbage in wars, which you haven't been clear on. Why are you losing your shit over that?

Tommy Tallarico

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Originally Posted by Tommy Tallarico

g0zen hasn't debated whether or not these things happen, he's just calling you out on the idea of supporting the continued role of torture and garbage in wars, which you haven't been clear on. Why are you losing your shit over that?

Tommy Tallarico

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I would move to say that he lost his shit over me stating what I thought was obvious - breaking of war "rules" and torture have been going on for thousands of years and nothing is going to change the nature of war. There cannot be fair play in war. Period. What I do and don't condone or approve of is absolutely meaningless and wasn't stated.

Sure, I'm against torture, WMD's, killing civilians, etc...

It doesn't mean a thing.

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Originally Posted by haohmaru

It doesn't mean a thing.

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Yes it does.

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Originally Posted by icarusfall

Yes it does.

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I wish that were true.

It means you have a conscience that's functioning. That's important.

Nothing will ever change if we don't even have ideals we'd like to see happen.

I am for the use of non-physical torture on enemies of the state.

Now playing Ozzy over and over again to a bunch of jihadists isn't a big deal in my opinion. Cutting off fingers and putting bamboo shoots in somebodies fingernails is. \

The people who used waterboarding as a tool to get information should be forced to endure the same treatment.

I don't like the fact that Almaci and Gozen focus on the US while ignoring the fact that the rest of the "civilized" world is just as, if not more guilty. This wah wah the us sucks is not only annoying it's flies in the face of Gozen's employer, who is, you guessed it...The Government.


PS Gozen, Jefferson was an asshole, bad example :)

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Originally Posted by g0zen

So fine, scream and cry about how they did this so it's fine for us to do it now, but don't call yourself a patriot. Because you're anything but. You're the kind of person Jefferson and Paine loathed with every fiber of their being.

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He didn't do any of that, you jumped on him for stating the situation of terrorism, not his opinion on it. War is disgusting and unspeakably evil. It is already, it always was, and all signs point to a not so bright future. I didn't see him claiming to be a patriot.

Trying to shut people up with aggressive argumentative tactics is unpatriotic.

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Originally Posted by Biff

I don't like the fact that Almaci and Gozen focus on the US while ignoring the fact that the rest of the "civilized" world is just as, if not more guilty.

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I'm a United States citizen, and what matters to me is what my government does in my name. I don't want to be just as guilty as the former imperial powers or brutal third-world despots, I want America to stand above all that shit, like it was designed to. American values isn't bullshit right-wing Christian horseshit, it's supposed to be about liberty and democracy. The real shit, not just words tacked onto campaign slogans.

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Originally Posted by Biff

This wah wah the us sucks is not only annoying it's flies in the face of Gozen's employer, who is, you guessed it...The Government.

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To the best of my knowledge, the government of the state of Tennessee has yet to torture anyone. Though you could probably make a case that the sales tax is pretty close.

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Originally Posted by Biff

PS Gozen, Jefferson was an asshole, bad example :)

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Without Jefferson we'd have no Constitution and no Bill of Rights. There wasn't anything 'assholish' about him that you couldn't level against any of our founding fathers.

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Originally Posted by Destin

He didn't do any of that, you jumped on him for stating the situation of terrorism, not his opinion on it. War is disgusting and unspeakably evil. It is already, it always was, and all signs point to a not so bright future. I didn't see him claiming to be a patriot.

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Bullshit, he paraded out the same old "they did X, Y, and Z, to us. So we're right to do unspeakable things to them, it's only fair" argument and then completely backpedaled when I called him out on it.

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Originally Posted by g0zen

Bullshit, he paraded out the same old "they did X, Y, and Z, to us. So we're right to do unspeakable things to them, it's only fair" argument and then completely backpedaled when I called him out on it.

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Don't even fucking pretend to speak for me or for my intentions. I in NO WAY condone torture, killing innocents, or other measures of warfare in any sense of the word. I don't even like hunting animals for sport.

That doesn't mean that I'm blind to the actions of this country and countless other governments throughout the course of history.

Again. You're wrong. Have the humility to admit it or apologize. And a hearty FUCK YOU for guessing (wrongly) what I truly believe.

Bullshit. You're still backpedaling, out one side of your mouth you slam people condemning torture by talking about all the horrible things terrorists did to us and how 'hey we've been doing it forever' and now out of the other you feign outrage and talk about how you'd never think of condoning it, when you already did. You're a conscious fraud and if you're waiting for an apology then get comfy, because it ain't fucking coming.

Dude, you're an asshole for creating an argument that wasn't there and creating a position that I didn't take.

I might as well make the argument that you love torture, hate the U.S. government, and are secretly a communist mole on a video game message board.

Congratulations on being a complete ignoramus. You win.

Edit: And just so we're completely clear: The actions of terrorism were described by me to address "rules of war" that don't exist and in no way, shape, or form were used to justify the use of torture as a means to an end. What you're reading into isn't there and wasn't intended and I have absolutely no reason to lie to an adrenaline pumped hate mongering zealot such as you. What do I care what you think? I DO care, however, you telling people what I think - particularly when it's flat out wrong.

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Originally Posted by haohmaru

Like what? Killing innocent people who obviously aren't soldiers and are targets of fanaticism? Like blowing up two office buildings with white collar workers in NYC? Like blowing up restaurants and malls in Israel, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc... with innocent men, women, and children? Like that?

War has already lost its rules. Long ago. And if you think any of the so-called "civilized" nations of the world haven't been engaging in torture for centuries then you're seriously naive and uninformed.

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Oh yeah, because the people in Iraq have been responsible for that right.

Seriously you twit, after 6 years of government lies, propaganda and mismanagment you STILL use that tired old disproven line?

Simply pathetic.

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Originally Posted by Biff

I am for the use of non-physical torture on enemies of the state.

Now playing Ozzy over and over again to a bunch of jihadists isn't a big deal in my opinion. Cutting off fingers and putting bamboo shoots in somebodies fingernails is. \

The people who used waterboarding as a tool to get information should be forced to endure the same treatment.

I don't like the fact that Almaci and Gozen focus on the US while ignoring the fact that the rest of the "civilized" world is just as, if not more guilty. This wah wah the us sucks is not only annoying it's flies in the face of Gozen's employer, who is, you guessed it...The Government.


PS Gozen, Jefferson was an asshole, bad example :)

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Huh what?

Your ignorance is truly bliss.

Oh, great. Another dolt who forgot to take reading comprehension.

So, there aren't suicide bombers blowing up shit in Iraq, Israel and Afghanistan? That's been "disproven"? By whom, exactly? Are you next going say that the Holocaust has been "disproven" and that Christians weren't fed to Lions and that Muslims are really being treated fairly by the United States?

And, just so we're crystal clear, nothing in my statement has anything to do with the war in Iraq either.

Are those soldiers engaged in war or terrorists using terror to achieve chaos?
Was the UK IN WAR for 4 decades with Ireland or Northern Island(part of the UK at that) or was it a government against a terrorist group?
Hows about Germany and the Rote armee fraction?
Belgium and the CCC?
Was the US at war with itself with its homegrown terrorists in the 60s and 70s?

Big distinctions no?


Oh BTW, regarding Iraq.
How many suicide attacks and Al Queda members where there before you guys barged in on false pretense?

Go on, enlighten me.

How many attacks have hit the US since 9/11? I'd say we're doing the job.

How many suicide attacks...? Isn't one, just one, too many when we're discussing the "rules of war"?

I'm not going to turn this into an Almaci Iraq war debate. That's not what my statement was about - it was addressing a particular post that talked about the war having rules and me saying that that doesn't exist. I used suicide bombers as an example. I can use the U.S.'s condoning certain methods of torture as another violation. War is awful and what it does to innocent people are awful - whatever side you're on.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Almaci

Oh BTW, regarding Iraq.
How many suicide attacks and Al Queda members where there before you guys barged in on false pretense?

Go on, enlighten me.

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Hmmm, let's ask the Kurds, Israel, and Kuwait that question, k? I love how Almaci is backing a nation AND a terrorist group that believes genocide is a useful and acceptable solution, this debate is over, he's a zealot or he's coming off that way to get a rise out of people. Don't need to get banned for this one :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Biff

How many attacks have hit the US since 9/11? I'd say we're doing the job.

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The sniper case, Anthrax, another plane that flew in an appartment building, attack at El Al counter at LAX and these are just from memory.
Thats way more then the years predating 9/11.