Mega Man 9: Official Thread

Well my point was not about whether 4-color is more appealing than 16-color, but rather how to most effectively use a 16-color palette and the ways that differs from a 4-color palette. The answer to the 4-color artist struggling with the transition to 16-color is not, as you suggested, to simply eliminate 10 or so colors from the palette.

I never claimed to be an artist. I'm just explaining why trying to throw more colors into an 8-bit-style sprite is not going to look great.

Maybe I should have used Mega Man Wily Wars as an example, so I could have kept things in the old-school design, and remove that issue from the equation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Frogacuda

but rather how to most effectively use a 16-color palette and the ways that differs from a 4-color palette.

---

That's great, but your example shows that you don't understand how to do that.

Quote:

---

The answer to the 4-color artist struggling with the transition to 16-color is not, as you suggested, to simply eliminate 10 or so colors from the palette

---

Admit it though, it looks a hell of a lot better for a sprite that size.

Ultimate Mega MAN design:

http://www.the-nextlevel.com/board/a...1&d=1214544828

8-bit MeganMa moved fast, 16-bits nintendon't. That's why i like 8-bits MeganMa. I'd be excited, but those screens are not exciting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cigsthecat

That's great, but your example shows that you don't understand how to do that.

---

Admittedly I'm not the best person to sell this, but I will say that you're not going to find much in the way of quality 16-color+ sprite art that doesn't do this (at least as far as stuff attempting any kind of outlines). Your interpretation has certainly not persuaded me in this regard.

Incidentally, did you prefer Hugo's original look?
http://www.the-nextlevel.com/board/a...1&d=1214545458

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Frogacuda

Your interpretation has certainly not persuaded me in this regard.

---

So this ->http://www.the-nextlevel.com/board/a...1&d=1214544971 http://www.the-nextlevel.com/board/a...1&d=1214538973<- looks better than this to you? Really?

Quote:

---

Incidentally, did you prefer Hugo's original look?
http://www.the-nextlevel.com/board/a...1&d=1214545458

---

Not a fair comparison at all. Here's the size of the Mega Man sprite compared to Hugo:

http://www.the-nextlevel.com/board/a...1&d=1214546682

Just because something can have more colors doesn't mean it should. You can't tell me you expect the Mega Man sprite to have as much detail as Hugo, it's simply impossible to do in an appealing way.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cigsthecat

So this ->http://www.the-nextlevel.com/board/a...1&d=1214544971 http://www.the-nextlevel.com/board/a...1&d=1214538973<- looks better than this to you? Really?

---

Yeah, it really does. I know we agree on a lot of things as far as art and animation goes, but we are on totally different planets on this one. I mean if you see him with weaker shoulders and a wider waist and that's your interpretation, I can easily convey that with just a few different pixels:
http://www.the-nextlevel.com/board/a...1&d=1214549337
And that would change none of what I said about line technique or shading.

Quote:

---

Just because something can have more colors doesn't mean it should. You can't tell me you expect the Mega Man sprite to have as much detail as Hugo, it's simply impossible to do in an appealing way.

---

It's not a matter of it having as much detail, and I don't think I attempted to add or subtract any detail compared to your picture.

But, as a 2D animator, I am sure you could lecture me about the importance of line weight. In pixel art, especially low-res pixel art, you can't actually vary the thickness of an outline, so in order to create the illusion of a thinner outline, you need to blend it with the surrounding colors. It's an anti-aliasing technique. You can blend it darker or lighter in the picture to vary the strength of the implied stroke.

Pixel art is all about suggesting things that aren't really there. You can't really add texture, detail, fully formed faces, variable line width, all these things... But the more colors you have, the easier it gets to imply these subtleties, and the only way to do this is effectively working with your palette. This is MOST important in small sprites.

Y'know, your argument has made me realize why I loved the art style in Mega Man Powered Up - the SD look is closer to the proportions of the 8-bit characters than anything later than 7.

Quote:

---

Pixel art is all about suggesting things that aren't really there. You can't really add texture, detail, fully formed faces, variable line width, all these things... But the more colors you have, the easier it gets to imply these subtleties, and the only way to do this is effectively working with your palette. This is MOST important in small sprites.

---

When I look at your edit, and even those other original sprites all I see is unnecessary detail being added that only serves to subtract from the power of the image. As you add more gray washed out tones all you're doing is lessening the impact. I don't appreciate the insinuation that I'm out of my element here either. Feel free to show me some amazing sprites you've done.

My goal was to create a crisp, clear sprite with bold color and I think I've done that. Really this is a problem I have with many SNES era sprites- the artists started adding a ton of extraneous shading that muddied up the work. It really is unnecessary, especially in smaller sprites. The less you have to work with the more careful you have to be with your palette.

The best 8bit sprite work was strong, clear powerful stuff that really stands the test of time. Many artists (outside the realm of sprites) would benefit from applying those principals to their work.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cigsthecat

Feel free to show me some amazing sprites you've done.

---

I don't think either of us have created any great sprites. So I defer to greater authority by looking at great sprites and the techniques they use and accepting critiques from experienced sprite artists with more talent than myself. None of this is shit that I came up with.

I could bring up Aladdin, Earthworm Jim, Street Fighter Alpha and a billion other popular pieces of sprite work to make my case. Can you name any 16-bit sprites with black outlines that you think really use their palette better than 4-color sprites did, just for the sake of illustrating your point?

Quote:

---

My goal was to create a crisp, clear sprite with bold color and I think I've done that.

---

You are out of your element, cigs, because you're an amazing artist, and you've created a sprite that doesn't look good at all to me. The head is shaped like a cube, his pants are pulled up to his nipples, and the highlights don't suggest the form of the subject at all.

Quote:

---

The best 8bit sprite work was strong, clear powerful stuff that really stands the test of time.

---

But we're talking about 16-bit stuff, here, not 8-bit, and how to properly utilize a larger palette. "Don't" is not really an answer. This discussion was not about whether Mega Man looked better in 8-bit or 16-bit, but whether or not just shoving more colors into an 8-bit sprite was the best way to make it look batter.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cigsthecat

Really this is a problem I have with many SNES era sprites- the artists started adding a ton of extraneous shading that muddied up the work.

---

Well I didn't add more shading than was in the original, just changed it, but shading shouldn't be the real issue here.

I could minimize and simplify the shading in my sprite, darken the outlines, and bring in more black, but still utilize the palette effectively in order to create smoother lines. Just basic anti-aliasing stuff to better suggest curves and such.
This has no more shading per se -->http://www.the-nextlevel.com/board/a...1&d=1214554835 than http://www.the-nextlevel.com/board/a...1&d=1214538973 <--this, but doesn't suffer from square head, boxing glove, or other problems of form because it can hint at curves better.

Again, I might not be 100% sure what you're getting at since we clearly have a conflict of taste here as well, but I really think there are ways to use a larger palette to enhance your vision. Adding colors is not automatically going to hurt your work.