The percentage of mass shootings is statistically nonexistent and is also not targeted by any proposed bill.Quote:
Originally Posted by bbobb
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The percentage of mass shootings is statistically nonexistent and is also not targeted by any proposed bill.Quote:
Originally Posted by bbobb
Voter registration fraud gets confused with voter fraud.Quote:
Originally Posted by bbobb
Voter registration fraud is when people register people unlawfully. It does happen, usually by some minimum-wage level nobodies trying to meet their bosses' unreasonable quotas. States normally require people to turn in all these documents to the clerks where they are verified. So whatever. And in the end, a guy writing up phony registration documents to keep his job isn't going to go cast votes under those names. So it doesn't really matter.
Voter fraud is when people actually go and vote unlawfully. All evidence is that this is really, really slight. If you think about it, the idea of a guy driving around to multiple precincts to vote in a election multiple times is just bizarre. It's a huge amount of work, it's time consuming, and it makes barely any evidence. For it to make a difference, you'd have to have this huge corrupt machine coordinating it from the top down - not unheard of in this country, of course (Boss Tweed and the like), but that would merely be a symptom to a bigger problem.
And yes, those voter fraud bills are just designed to disenfranchise minorities. Republicans pushing it have been caught on tape saying as much. Gee, I wonder why minorities don't vote for Republicans.
http://www.the-nextlevel.com/tnl/att...2&d=1365464879Quote:
Originally Posted by Fe 26
Again with the team stuff. The Republican Party is obsolescent. Don't even bother asking what they are proposing - it's a waste of time and typing. It's really a nothing question, up there with "But Bush . . . ."Quote:
Originally Posted by Diff-chan
Chicago has to be one of the most liberal, dyed-in-the-wool Democratic cities in the country but it's also characterized by horrendous gun violence - horrendous both in the quantity of deaths and in how many schoolchildren are the victims. I honestly don't think anything would be helped by allowing Chicagoans to legally carry concealed weapons. Generally speaking, the neighborhoods with the most gun violence are the neighborhoods where everyone else knows that they are surrounded by guns and are at high risk of getting shot if they mess around, but a lot of them still mess around. This results in shootouts and in kids and other innocents getting caught in the crossfire.
Concealed carry laws would have little impact; closing gun show loopholes would probably have no impact. This is a systemic problem of a different sort. I see a lot of posts where TNL is making fun of "Jim Bob" or Texans or whatever. Well, there are a bunch of goddamn idiots in the city, too, and they love their guns just as much as the good ol' boys do. This is a multifaceted problem, and fighting the NRA is only a small part of it, yet it's consistently treated like it's the whole battle.
Fe 26 has some good suggestions. We also need to recognize these gun deaths are a social issue that won't be solved by simple gun laws. I think this battle will be won only when we have the courage to ask more of people and not raise them to be over-entitled babies perpetually one step away from being oh-my-GOD so offended if someone is disagreeable to them. I feel like we are encouraging violence by the way we're raising kids. That if we took all the guns in America and dumped them in Japan or France - countries with far fewer people - they wouldn't have a twentieth of these problems.
We are raising psychos. It is a uniquely American problem. The closest thing might be some warlord-governed third-world cesspool. But we don't seem to be much like Europe anymore.
Some of this is due "this thing we call the 1960s." I feel we substituted one set of problems for another but are suddenly paralyzed when it comes to addressing the new problems head-on. We have just gotten extremely proficient at lecturing and being outraged.
Handguns are silly.
Take them away.
Go choke on your constitution.
The US has something that Europe hasn't had in a couple thousand years. The 'Frontier' and the mindset that goes along with it. That big open space between the Mississippi river and California is why the gun culture of the US has lasted as long as it has. We were in the unique position of having cheap mass produced guns while still having a lot of land to explore and/or conquer. A very unique position for a culture (much like we were able to build drivable roads before our major cities fully matured).
That is one of the big reasons that you don't see the same kind of culture in other countries. They never had a frontier. Or if they did, it was the US or Asia or China. After WW2 and the German's version of imperialism, everyone in the UK and EU got a really bad taste in their mouth. They don't really want imperialism anymore. And without the promises of cheap labor and wealth, they don't really care about 'frontier' either.
But stuff like the gold rush, guns, cheap or free land, your own farm as far as your eyes can see, inventing something new, etc, is all part of the American frontier, and a big part of what we are as a country.
Ultimately, I think that is what a lot of conservatives are fighting for when they fight against gun legislation. It has nothing to do with feeling safe or fighting the upcoming horde. They're fighting for an ideal. A feeling. A memory that could quickly fade from this earth. And to be replaced by what? The ordinary? The plain? Mediocrity? Same old shit, different day? A simple job, making an average pay, that you do nothing with but pay your house payment with, buy stupid vacations to Disney world, and buy food to fill your gullet with?
Like it or not, but guns are part of that American energy that forever wants more. And hunger and will are what distinguish us.
Ic is silly.Quote:
Originally Posted by icarusfall
take him away
Go choke on your owls
No one wants to touch this because you can't get into it without talking about American minorities, or at least people assume as much. An overwhelming number of the people who get killed and convicted in the US drug war are nonwhite. No one is going to stand up and suggest improvements at the risk of sounding critical of the non-majorities of the US.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick
There is a lot of racism involved in the gun debate. Many conservatives willfully ignore all the poor minority members. Its something "that just happens" and they just assume it is because they are <insert racial slur here>. Democrats don't say anything because they don't want to sound critical of any disadvantaged group in the US. That is why a couple thousand or more young nonwhites can murder each other each month and no one says a thing but the whole country goes bat shit insane when a couple white children die.
The gun issue shows just how racist the upper crust and ruling elite are in this country. It isn't there problem until it is one of their own.
Social problems are a far bigger issue than America's "gun problem" and are what fuels the need/want for guns in this country. You can cite statistics from other countries all that you want about their post-gun world but it's useless as a comparison. I said this before and got called out on it but I'll say it again: most gun violence in this country is driven by opportunistic crime and this type of crime and attitude is heavily ingrained into our culture. The cities with the worst crime rates that have done the most to try and curb gun related violence have seen few results. Diff pointed out NYC but I believe the lower crime rate there is related to the city being cleaned up in many other ways.
The "if they took the guns away, only the criminals would have them and we couldn't defend ourselves" is a stupid one to make. I think America has outgrown the stage where personal weapons for defense against other individuals was/is practical. I thought about getting a handgun and a CCW permit because I live in a shitty neighborhood now (my area isn't very bad) but I ultimately decided that I'd rather not be put into a situation where I'd have to make a choice to use it and any consequences that may arise from doing so. I may get robbed one night walking back from my car but I probably won't get shot if I don't do anything stupid. I can replace my wallet and anything else but I can't replace my or anyone else's life. People get way too caught up in that shit like it's some sort or game. The chances of you ever NEEDING a concealed weapon are very low but the chances of you or an innocent person getting hurt if you do use one are probably pretty high.
Call me crazy if you wish but I still believe that overall civilian ownership is an important deterrence against both foreign and domestic oppression. The question of how much is an interesting one though. I don't think that you can justify CCW permits with the Constitution in a concrete manner. I still think people should be able to own handguns and/or certain assault weapons but I've become a little conflicted on the extent. This country may have turned out much better or much worse if we had addressed these issues while it was still possible to eliminate large amounts of both legal and illegal guns in our populace. I think that an armed populace will prevent the government from ever reaching a certain level of totalitarianism and will also prevent any foreign power from ever invading and occupying any part of this country. This may not seem like a real issue right now but it could be different in 40 years. I suppose it's ultimately a matter of opinion.
Someone else said that if we dumped all of our guns in Japan that they'd probably have a far less severe issue with gun violence. They're probably right. The US has far greater problems related to it's school systems, minority discrimination, drugs, etc. If we addressed these issues, the gun debate wouldn't be such a large thing. If you think about it, we're probably at a point where it would be impossible to remove guns from our society. The gun debate is just political bickering used to defer from discussion and action related to more important and more solvable issues. I think gun violence is a symptom of different social issues and not a direct one itself.
I'm all for improved regulation and enforcement (to a reasonable extent) but I still think there are far more important issues to address. If America legalized drugs, that'd probably have a larger positive effect on gun related crime than tougher gun regulation. Same thing with education and class based welfare. I don't have a problem with most people legally owning guns and I think they're hardly the problem. It may sound heartless, but mass shootings are a very very very small part of gun violence (and violence in general) statistics and individual incidents shouldn't be grounds for federal level action. It's the same type of political fear-mongering that the government used after 9/11. If my son got killed in one, my opinion could be different but I don't really want to think of it. Somebody blowing up a building with a bomb is probably just as likely but probably unavoidable in the grand scheme of things. Changing laws based primarily on the emotional response of the deaths of several hundred people in the past 20 or 30 years seems unwise when there are 300 million people in the country. I'm not saying it shouldn't be a part of the discussion but emotional responses don't always give the best results.
Unfortunately, the right types of regulation may be impossible to put into place. If guns were made with non removable gps tracking devices or finger print recognition, it may do a lot to prevent them from being purchased legally and then sold illegally but how many people would want the government to know what exactly they owned and what they were doing with it? Closing certain loopholes and stricter background checks may help a little so they're still worth pursuing. You're only going to be able to go so far with it in the end though.
We waste too much energy on this discussion as a nation. There are other things that we'd have an easier time changing that would have a much larger positive effect on the nation as a whole.
Long post, I was responding to several pages of posts. I'm not trolling. I think I laid out everything in a reasonable manner so I'm not interested in engaging in pointless personal attacks because my opinion may be different than yours. This lack of civility on the board and country in general is what makes it so hard to have cordial and progressive discussions on the matter. I think things have been pretty good the last page or so; let's try and keep it that way.
You're an odd duck Gohron. You don't think it is practical to own a gun to defend yourself against other individuals, but you think they are a good deterrent for something like an invasion from China.