"A lot of Americans" is far from most people. Thinking that anyone can fall into a job where great healthcare is affordable is a pretty general generalization.
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"A lot of Americans" is far from most people. Thinking that anyone can fall into a job where great healthcare is affordable is a pretty general generalization.
Where in that post did I equate "a lot of Americans" with most people?Quote:
Originally Posted by Finch
And... the mentality that we are stuck "falling" into a job as you phrased it is a psychological problem that sets back a lot of people who "wish" they had things like decent health insurance or better jobs.
Some people do "fall" into jobs, but many do not. Many "seek" jobs and work to get them so that they can have insurance, while passivity yields its own prison.
<3 DacaZ
It's costing you more and not working as well as it could be, though. No one said this is going to kill us all, but it's fucked up and it's time to make it better. Even for the people that have healthcare, it's overpriced, overcomplicated, and not as effective.Quote:
Originally Posted by DacaZ
What the fuck is this upside you're hanging on to that you feel outweighs all the lives of people that are left out? It just sounds like a fear of change thing. "I'm getting by ok, so don't rock the boat." It's not that scary. The rest of the world does it and they're not dying in the streets.
I do? My parents both worked at Sears when I was young, and I never went to a private school after third grade.Quote:
Originally Posted by icarusfall
I guess if by "privileged" you mean that my parents weren't worthless pieces of lazy shit that set a horrid example, then you'd be right.
I openly said I'd be up for change if I saw numbers that worked. I don't fear change at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogacuda
That would make a great bumper sticker. And it feels good to say it. We can even get a bunch of musicians together and sing it ala "We Are The World."Quote:
It's fucked up and it's time we make it better.
The only reason the numbers aren't working is because they're trying to compromise so dopes like Yoshi don't shit their pants. Except they're going to shit their pants anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by DacaZ
If we just do this thing right it's really not that complicated.
haoh posted the info back a page or two. It has to do with high and low cost caps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowutopia
You don't pick your parents. Stop acting like you had some role in this, or that anyone that wasn't as lucky fucked up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshi
Or that anyone not making a lot of money is lazy for that matter. It's practically a fact that the more money you make, the less hard you have to work. Success hinges on talent and luck far more than hard work. People humping boxes in factories can work their balls off for 12 hours a day and not get shit for it.
You didn't. That's the point. You're talking like we should all aim for a job like yours and if we don't, well, we're fucked.Quote:
Originally Posted by DacaZ
So what you're saying is that everyone should strive for these "jobs" that provide better health insurance? There aren't enough jobs like that for "everyone". This "You can get anything you work for" is the biggest bullshit lie and Americans are told it every day.Quote:
And... the mentality that we are stuck "falling" into a job as you phrased it is a psychological problem that sets back a lot of people who "wish" they had things like decent health insurance or better jobs.
Some people do "fall" into jobs, but many do not. Many "seek" jobs and work to get them so that they can have insurance, while passivity yields its own prison.
i will say that i am happy to see a thread where people are arguing about something important instead of a thread where everyone is agreeing that something stupid is stupid!
Amazing you see what you want to see. Did you not see the multiple times that I posted that I'm not against reform, so long as it doesn't amount to a fucked up "something is better than nothing" scheme?Quote:
Originally Posted by Finch
And yes, I do believe EVERYONE should AIM to get a good job like mine that offers good insurance. What a heartless fuck I am. I should just wring my hands and let loose with bumber sticker platitudes. That'll help. But no, not everyone will get the job they want/deserve, mainly because we don't live somewhere over the rainbow. Hence my initial "show me the numbers and I'm all for it" pitch.
Yes, that's what I'm saying. Everyone should strive for them. Like I said, I'm a heartless prick. No, there aren't enough jobs like that for everyone. See above, that's why I'd like to see some numbers and a plan that will be equitable for all. I just don't think such a animal is feasible.Quote:
So what you're saying is that everyone should strive for these "jobs" that provide better health insurance? There aren't enough jobs like that for "everyone". This "You can get anything you work for" is the biggest bullshit lie and Americans are told it every day.
This makes me sad that people really feel this way. For a lot of people this kind of thinking is self-fulfilling prophecy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogacuda
I'm not saying hard work is irrelevant, I'm saying a lot of people bust their ass and will never, EVER get anywhere with it, because they aren't good enough or they haven't had an opportunity.Quote:
Originally Posted by DacaZ
It's just a fucking fact. I've worked a lot of shitty blue collar jobs in my day, and it's hard as fuck. Far harder than anything I do now. The only reason I don't still do that is because I happen to be able to write about video games better than most people, and I happen to have had the opportunity to do it. I'm lucky.
Yes, I still bust my ass, but honestly, there's not many people who wouldn't bust their ass if it was really going to get them shit. There are a lot of people that work 100 times harder than Yoshi ever has and won't make shit, too.
I agree with a lot of what you said there. There's a lot of shit that factors in. Call it luck, call it God given/genetic talent, all that jazz and that's never going to change. I'd beg to differ on your last sentence, but a lot of that comes down to just how many people are many, I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogacuda
Exactly. Let's not even bring lazy into the equation. Rich or poor, people don't have the same advantages. You're talking like the playing field is fair and all someone needs to do is apply themselves. Do you really want your salary lowered if everyone suddenly went to college and pursued math? No, you'd rather live in a dreamland where you're free to criticize others that they should be more like you, but the reality of that would be fucking horrifying to you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshi
Also: Are you really this greedy? You measure yourself by your bank account? No one's talking about abolishing work. All people want is access to subsidized healthcare. So that all the people that build everything you like can afford to take their kids to the doctor or get a broken bone set.
Get fucked.
It's easy for young, healthy people with good benefits to be oblivious to how easily a private health care system can fuck you royally.
Out of nowhere in my early 20s, I started getting really bad muscle pain and fatigue. I still suffer every day of my life with this because doctors haven't found the source of it. I'm unlucky to have this but I would be even more unlucky if I had to pay for all the doctor's visits, biopsies, etc. all out of my own pocket. If not for government health care, I would have been thousands of dollars in debt before even finishing school and I would likely still be in the same situation physically. The amount I have spent in dental despite taking proper care of my teeth (dental's not covered by taxes here) has been bad enough.
Except that the cost of your health care is not in your hands. It's in the medical care industry's hands. Your health is barely in your own hands and then all you can do is improve your odds. It's almost cute in a naive way that you think you have that much control over your health and associated expenses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshi
An old guy w/ no insurance staggers into a hospital with severe pneumonia and dies after 3 days in the hospital, some one or group(s) is/are going to pay out the ass for that.
If you contract an "uncoverable pre-existing condition" and lose your current health care you might pay wayyyyyy out the ass later.
Of course you could go for a bike ride on a nature trail, get Aortic dissection and never see your kid(s) again. Even Lance Goddamn Armstrong got cancer.
This and run away costs are why damn near every other undeveloped country has had the government step in to deal with health insurance and curb the human abuse/neglect we see all the time in the US. IIRC, only other major country on Earth with a US equivalent system is fucking China.
Consider looking into Fibromyalgia?Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoZeedeater
Yeah, I have. That's what it often gets called but it's more a general term for the symptoms than a single cause.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bojack
Zeed, check your PM's as I don't want to derail the thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoZeedeater
I did! However, i responded to that statement and what it implied. How about, "A percentage of Americans that are not the majority see the current healthcare as okay and something that will be okay down the road." See, that's even less general. I have a lot of posts that you never read and here you are saying that i'm only seeing what i want to see. Don't be so angry, guy!Quote:
Originally Posted by DacaZ
You spelled "bumper" wrong. HONK!Quote:
And yes, I do believe EVERYONE should AIM to get a good job like mine that offers good insurance. What a heartless fuck I am. I should just wring my hands and let loose with bumber sticker platitudes. That'll help. But no, not everyone will get the job they want/deserve, mainly because we don't live somewhere over the rainbow. Hence my initial "show me the numbers and I'm all for it" pitch.
It's not what you said, it's the way you're saying it. There are two groups in your statements: the people who try and the people who don't. There are more lines of work out there than "The ones that provide healthcare that you should strive for" and "The ones that don't so they don't count".
I know you said you owned your own company at one point, but you don't seem to be very sympathetic to those freelancers, tiny companies, moms and pops. My company employs a single person besides the guy that owns it. I buy my own health insurance, but i'd really like something that didn't feel like an emergency parachute that will certainly become more expensive and may or may not work when i really need it. I don't want free health insurance, i want health insurance that doesn't feel like i'm placing bets on whether they'll cover what i have.
A pal of mine has a brain tumor that causes a physical defect. He's not retarded, but like it or not this preemptively thwarts his attempts at getting a good job and his chances at buying good health insurance. We're not talking "Hold Hands, Unicorns", we're talking "This is the real world, not everyone's like you." This works in other countries, why not the US?
I'm reading that "I like it if it works" line, but it reads more "I like it if i like it."
Here's what i'm not getting, and maybe it's just because i'm ignorant; Say a bill is passed. People are going to like it, people are going to hate it, who's to say who's really right? Why can't whatever happens be a work in progress?
The only people who are okay with doing nothing are the people that are fine here. This is not the majority! There will never be a system that will work to everyone's benefit, but it'd be great if it leaned towards the more instead of the less.
Well, i'd take out the talent part. Success hinges on 1/3rd talent, 1/3rd hard work, and 5,000/3rds luck.Quote:
This makes me sad that people really feel this way. For a lot of people this kind of thinking is self-fulfilling prophecy.
I'm not angry at all. Sorry you perceive me as such. Yes, a percentage of Americans believe the current system is fine. I believe it works for a lot of people. A lot of people it doesn't work for. I think you have a lot more say in whether it works for an individual than you seem to. That's fine. From my experience there's a great deal of pessimistic determinism philosophy abound in the camp that is for universal healthcare, and I think that says a lot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Finch
LOL. Actually that would be classified as a typo. But well played, sir!Quote:
You spelled "bumper" wrong. HONK!
Yes, there are people who try and people who don't. I did say that. Are there people who almost try and almost don't? Small business is precisely an area I would like to see reform in, but you've probably already forgotten again that I was in favor of equitable reform. You seem to after every post.Quote:
It's not what you said, it's the way you're saying it. There are two groups in your statements: the people who try and the people who don't. There are more lines of work out there than "The ones that provide healthcare that you should strive for" and "The ones that don't so they don't count".
I know you said you owned your own company at one point, but you don't seem to be very sympathetic to those freelancers, tiny companies, moms and pops. My company employs a single person besides the guy that owns it. I buy my own health insurance, but i'd really like something that didn't feel like an emergency parachute that will certainly become more expensive and may or may not work when i really need it. I don't want free health insurance, i want health insurance that doesn't feel like i'm placing bets on whether they'll cover what i have.
I will speak to that small biz point also, with this. When you start a business, you create a model that determines how much money you need to make to live comfortably, make it worth your while, however you prefer to think about it. If, in the current system, you can't make that model work, you have no biz being in biz. That applies to health care as well under the current system. I had a biz with just a handful of employees. I made it work. It can be done.
Yes, I will like it if I like it. We agree!!Quote:
A pal of mine has a brain tumor that causes a physical defect. He's not retarded, but like it or not this preemptively thwarts his attempts at getting a good job and his chances at buying good health insurance. We're not talking "Hold Hands, Unicorns", we're talking "This is the real world, not everyone's like you." This works in other countries, why not the US?
I'm reading that "I like it if it works" line, but it reads more "I like it if i like it."
Here's what i'm not getting, and maybe it's just because i'm ignorant; Say a bill is passed. People are going to like it, people are going to hate it, who's to say who's really right? Why can't whatever happens be a work in progress?
The only people who are okay with doing nothing are the people that are fine here. This is not the majority! There will never be a system that will work to everyone's benefit, but it'd be great if it leaned towards the more instead of the less.
Edit:
In thinking this over, indulge me with this. You seem like a clever guy. I don't mean that in jest. So if affordable healthcare is so high on your list, as it should be, why wouldn't you find a job that offers it to you instead of staying where you are.
Quote:
Originally Posted by icarusfall
Quote:
Originally Posted by icarusfall
I love you Icarus but this is getting tired. It's really easy to demonize everyone that has more money than you for not wanting to subsidize you with it, but it's not valuable as analysis.Quote:
Originally Posted by icarusfall
This is nonsense, because you're ignoring the biggest factor of all, which is skill. People that develop skills that are marketable make the most money, and very few people are too stupid to develop any marketable skills. Developing a skill and then marketing it is scary and hard work, and a lot of people would rather just take a low-responsibility job that doesn't pay as well. I know a lot of people that choose to work shitty retail jobs. They have access to college educations but they don't want the stress that comes with a high paying job involving real responsibility. They'd rather work "hard" at the shitty retail job and never have to think about work or firing people or making payroll when they're not working. A lot of people would rather work "hard" at a shitty job than work a job that pays more and involves less physical labor, but is far more stressful and mentally taxing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogacuda
Taking out a bunch of college loans and getting an education, only to then put yourself out there in a high stress job for $40k per year, is scary but it's the only way for most people to get started on the road to making a good living. The people that choose to take that route shouldn't be forced to subsidize the people that say "Fuck it, I'm going to go work with my buddies at GameStop and force other people to provide my safety net".
In this thread, you can see
a) who has good healthcare
b) who doesn't
c) who doesn't even live in the US
Sometimes I wish b) would follow c)'s lead if they want health care so badly and they find it impossible to get
Having people pay for other people's care isn't going to fix the crux of America's problem with health. It's not the lack of care. No one takes care of themselves, everyone sues everyone, doctors overprescribe stupid expensive bullshit
I don't think that's the real problem. I think it's the fact that health care providers have the market cornered and don't want to lose it. But what do I know. I'm just a guy who reads the newspaper every day about it and has a well thought-out opinion instead of speaking out incoherently.
Maybe you should try something else then. Not that I don't believe that isn't true either, but I don't think Obama's plan eliminates that. Which means people pay even MORE than what he thinks they're going to have to pay.
I"m not actually demonizing people that make more than me for not wanting to subsidize me. I'm mad they don't want to subsidize anyone other than the disabled/young/old. I don't have to frame it in those terms, but the nature of the argument kind of forces me to. I'm saying it's shitty to not want the best for your fellow man. If that means higher taxes so that everyone can afford doctor's visits, then we should be ok with that. Socialized medicine isn't going to put anyone in the poor house who's doing fine now. They would enjoy the exact same lifestyle - but everyone could go to the damn doctor. And hearing office folk talk about who should get out there and work and stop being lazy raises my ire.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpoDaddy
And I'll take every opportunity to remind Yoshi I hope his family kills him. :tu:
But doctor's visits aren't why things cost so damn much (for you)
Lawsuits do. A big suit is worth like 10k visits.
Keeping people alive with fringe care does. We spend so much on this now it's ridiculous. All the other countries? Nope.
And yes, the overprescription of medicine is out of control. I bet 80% of what people take right now is not needed.
Checkups do not cost much. Or they shouldn't. Not if these things above went away. With this other system, all of this stays around! It solves nothing and just waters everything down.
I'm all for a change in philosophy. Parts of the system suck, but those parts aren't what's being targeted
I don't think it's that they don't want to subsidize anyone; they don't want to subsidize everyone, regardless of whether they're doing the best they can or gaming the system. Regardless, if everyone could have the best possible health care I would happily pay more, but I'm not willing to pay more for inferior care, hair transplants, chiropractors, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by icarusfall
Common misconception. I do agree there needs to be some reform in medical lawsuits, and this does add to the total cost of healthcare, but it's actually a relatively low percentage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joust Williams
The insurance costs more than the actual lawsuits.
I'm always shocked by the lack of empathy in some people.
Why is it so difficult to understand that in another person's life there are so many variables that make it different from yours, you can't just go around applying what little lessons you've learned to their lives?
To a lot of people, I had a privileged life growing up. Compared to other people, the last ten years of my life were totally tragic. You know what my experiences have taught me about all of your lives? Nothing.
You can be born into a rich family and work your ass off, you can be born into a poor family and work your ass off. Is one harder than the other? Sometimes-- it depends, but that's not the point. It's never fair, and I don't think anyone believes it can or even should be. But how about a little bit of empathy sometimes.
If there is one thing I've learned in my life that can be made into a common truth, it's that NOBODY gets to where they're going by themselves. No successful person has ever become successful without some kind of help or cooperation from somebody else. Whether it be a loan, having a good teacher, knowing the right connections, or just having the luck of having good parents. I'm NOT saying hard work doesn't pay off. But people that act like they crawled up from the same slime as everyone else and got to the top all by themselves piss me off something serious.
I cannot even count the number of "conservatives" (I don't want to make this into a right/left thing but here I have to) who talk tough until something bad happens to THEM, and then they're suddenly all understanding. I've seen it over and over, and anything can happen to anybody.
I worked a lot of shitty jobs for nothing, I went to college (with scholarships!), and I have health insurance and a pretty nice, cushy job now. At this point it seems like my standard of living can only go up. But I know my life isn't the one and only reality, and I think it's only humane to have universal health care coverage. REAL universal health care, which Obama is arguably not even proposing (but that's another discussion). I'd still happily pay higher taxes, and I wouldn't stop complaining about improving the system either.
Someone lives in a small town where they were born. They're happy with a modest life, they get married, have two kids. Neither of them went to college, and they work at a Walmart and a fast food place (I know, but somebody has to work there). They work hard and barely get by, but it's all right, until one of them gets cancer.
Anyone who looks at the above scenario and thinks "Toughen the fuck up" or "tough shit" is just acting like a worthless human being. Getting good grades and graduating college and becoming an accountant is by some definition tough, but it's nothing compared to some things. I've never had a close family member get cancer, and I've never become an accountant, but it's not that hard to use your imagination once in awhile.
You can live your life caring only about what happens to you, but it makes you a pretty worthless human being.
Here's my main issue with Obama's health plan. The doctors are against it. The insurance companies are for it.
"but it's all right, until one of them gets cancer"
Obama's plan does not fix this
Quote:
Originally Posted by Salsashark
Great examples.
The truth is empathy is only born through experience. I know plenty of conservatives myself who seem to lack both. This Republican nonsense of "But, why are you CHOOSING to be poor?" is really fucking getting old.
Dacaz is right to a point. There are a lot of people who set themselves up for failure. A lot. And it sucks because the pattern they get stuck in dictates the rest of their life.
There are FAR more people who work hard, take their opportunities when they come (and make them when they can), and still cannot get ahead. People with families, or kids who are sick, or any number of ridiculous burdens. I'm tired too of hearing, "I did it, so you can to" or "Stop being lazy" from these assholes. Life is not even handed. Even the mighty and balanced U.S. of A, does not provide the same opportunities to everyone.
I get that Republicans love the "Trial by Fire" idea of the human spirit, only they seem to forget very quickly what that trial was like and that there was a very real chance they might have fallen flat on their face. When shit finally goes wrong for these people, it's amazing to watch how fast they collapse without their cushy jobs and lifestyles.
Not everyone in America can make 100,000 a year if they just "Work harder" or "Do better." My old Boss could never understand why I was trying to get myself into a second job. From behind his desk and his 200,000 a year salary he'd look at me and go "Why do you WANT to work a second job anyway?"
I told him "Want has nothing to do with it, man." He could never understand how 30,000 a year couldn't be enough for someone to live on. Amazing.
If this is true I'm not happy about it either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Advocate
I live just fine on WAY less than 30k a year. You're doing it wrong.
I don't think Obama's health plan is The Answer. But it's a step in the right direction.
I live just fine on WAY less than 30k a year too. But I have no insurance so I'm sure I'd have to change the definition of "just fine" if I got cancer or something else really expensive to battle.
There are other factors to consider mind you. I'm stating the story as in, he had no idea how or why I'd seek a way to make more money. As in he did not understand cost of living in MA.Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh
59% of doctors are in favor of it. You're wrong. Also the insurance companies are spending shitloads to battle it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Advocate
I was going to make a post but I read this and it was a really good point. I haven't HAD to go the hospital or doctors office for most of my life.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoZeedeater
Icarus also brings up a lot of good points, especially when talking about the fact that not everybody will achieve to the level needed to pay for insurance but I'll say this:
As I mentioned before, I've done some really shitty, down the totem pole work and I've always been insured during my adult life. I also had a heroin addict father for a portion of my childhood with a mother not quite right in the head (but she's great, so don't hate) and they had me insured for my ENTIRE childhood and neither ever made a lot of money.
Here's what really bugs me about a lot of people: The average IQ in this country basically shows that your average person, with enough focus and time, can understand nearly ANYTHING. People have so much potential to accomplish things, no matter their background or current position in life. If everyone did achieve however, the whole point of striving for it would be mostly pointless.
Of course there's plenty of people in bad situations, but it still isn't that hard to pay for insurance. I could get basic insurance for the purposes of emergencies and basic doctors visits for probably cheaper outside of an employer than I pay for my good insurance now.
Sounds like you may have a mitochondrial disorder or something like it. Look up the baseball player Rocco Baldelli and maybe that'll help you out.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoZeedeater
The article is from March.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogacuda
Hell I'll help you with an argument against myself. Here.
Even though the AMA is for it, more and more doctors are going against it. Especially as Congress modifies it, so it can pass through cleanly.
And show me the article where they are fighting it?
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2...a-new-message/
http://content.usatoday.com/communit.../07/68494623/1
http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/07...y5174896.shtml
Hey DACAZ I'm insured too, with good coverage (dental, health, eye, very good coverage in case of high bills/emergency) and pay less than 50 a month for it.
It's still shitty.
This isn't about Republicans having no empathy or Democrats buying votes, so let's stop pretending all Republicans hate the poor and all Democrats exploit the poor. I think we can all agree that the current system has flaws. It's the best quality care in the world, but not everyone can afford it. So the question is, how do we make that care affordable to everyone without diluting it's quality? The answer is certainly not government-run healthcare, as everything the government touches drops in quality and spikes in price.
This is key. There's too much fucking compromise. Do it right or don't do it. On this we can agree. It's amazing how people can't fucking get together on anything until they break it in half.Quote:
Originally Posted by Advocate
Not ignoring your links, but I'm way busy and can't read them right now. I will say that ad is backed by a medical research group and not the health insurance association of america like the original, so that's not really helping your case.
Most doctors, according to the most recent polls, are strongly opposed to the currently proposed system because they don't want bureaucrats and accountants telling them how to treat their patients. Insurance companies aren't lobbying to battle the overhaul, they're lobbying to shape it in a way that nets them the most tax dollars.
Isn't this how it is now, except for the independently wealthy?Quote:
Originally Posted by SpoDaddy
The currently proposed system doesn't mean shit to me, because there won't be a workable bill up to a vote until near the end of the year. That said, no one has read all 11,000 pages of it and I think there's a lot of people with a lot of misconceptions about it. Including the two of us, I'm sure.
Which one? I posted three articles. One of them is yes medical, but the other is the Health Insurance lobby. The same one that made the original commercial. I believe those vids are 2&3.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogacuda
Two points.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogacuda
1: Kinda. Doctors have freedoms now, but the way its CURRENTLY crafted. No.
2. Shockingly. Obama's ORIGINAL bill was 660 pages. Since the Senate and the House grabbed it. Its gone up to 1100.
I wonder why.
#2 is the same as #1 so I didn't look at the third. I did now, though, and it's clever and subversive, but it is NOT support for universal single payer healthcare nor the current proposed system. What it is is an attempt to subvert this effort to try to replace it with one that benefits them. It's a clever tactic, really.Because moderates fuck up everything :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Advocate
We need real liberals with some backbone.
I think it has been well known that at any time this this topic has come up, I've been for tort reform. Yeah, when I was younger I was against universal health care, but even then I wanted tort reform.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheebs
You never said anything about small business reform! There is no equitable reform unless there's a fucking revolution where all doctors, insurance companies, etc. go non-profit and start a sliding scale pay system. This has been said elsewhere!Quote:
Originally Posted by DacaZ
Now you say you're for equitable reform, but right now the playing field is far from equal. Is there a right way to do this? Government funded healthcare isn't necessarily the right thing (since ultimately we're paying for it anyway!), but if this buy-in thing could bring down prices for the peeps that need it brought down, it'd be a good thing a few years down the road. Maybe not today. Maybe not tomorrow. But someday. The next day, everyone could afford healthcare except the homeless, but they don't matter anyway. OR... ???
I would think it'd have more to do with doing exactly what you want to do and not having to worry about a boss man. Fuck comfort, in this economy if you can still fasten your belt you're doing okay. On a tangent, this is the first month since April of last year that i'm back to a 40 hour work week. February and March were just awful. I was hoping for this healthcare thing to make something open where 1-employee company me could buy into a group or sommat so that i had coverage i could rely on!Quote:
I will speak to that small biz point also, with this. When you start a business, you create a model that determines how much money you need to make to live comfortably, make it worth your while, however you prefer to think about it. If, in the current system, you can't make that model work, you have no biz being in biz. That applies to health care as well under the current system. I had a biz with just a handful of employees. I made it work. It can be done.
I've tried! I was even hypothetically hired by a company that provided excellent coverage, cancer care, the works, they even paid well! It fell through a day before my first day (everyone including myself are betting shipped to China), though, and i kind of stuck with the job i'm at because i felt it a little umbrella in a storm of shit. I love my job! I could be paid a bit better, but the benefit of not having anyone breathing down my neck, actually working for someone in my own field, and more than anything liking my boss are all pretty important to me.Quote:
Edit:
In thinking this over, indulge me with this. You seem like a clever guy. I don't mean that in jest. So if affordable healthcare is so high on your list, as it should be, why wouldn't you find a job that offers it to you instead of staying where you are.
HOWEVER! If i wasn't so lazy and wasn't such a log on my off time, i could probably land a lot more freelance work than i've been -hurf hurf- falling into. I could even afford a better provider!
This healthcare bill as of right now looks like wafflewafflewafflewafflemixmixmixmixwafflewaffleroachesweevilsmixmixwaffle to just about anyone. There have been a few ideas- government plan, requirements for businesses with a payroll of $250k or more (which doesn't apply to me ;__;), the only solid i've heard from Bamms is that he won't sign it if it raises the deficit; and then all i've heard is gobbledygook about what would or wouldn't work better, whose fault this really is (and i'm hearing it from all sides that its not THEIR fault), and what country we shouldn't emulate (the only one anyone knows anything about seems to be Canada), but WHAT THE FUCK IS REALLY GOING ON HERE? The man's keeping you down, me down. That's what!
fixed :) *kinda supports what you originally said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogacuda
Here's something I sent YAWA. (Not taking away what I said in this thread already.)Quote:
Originally Posted by buttcheeks
*I deleted the first part of the quote.
Quote:
I know its hard out there I know the hard ships, but I do not agree with hand outs. I do not agree with the gov't controlling something that I can get willingly.
I also know that private businesses are hardest hit with Health insurance. Oh I know. So, its not easy for me to say that Obama's plan sucks. It does. It doesn't address TORT, it doesn't address Prescription drug makers, nor does it address in any way shape or form the lowering of cost to hospitals. None.
TORT might not be a killer overall. But in certain states it is. NJ being a prime example. Not only is NJ the countries highest in auto insurance, its second highest in medical malpractice suits. Part of the cost is the lawsuits. The other half is caused by the prescription drug makers raping of the US customer. Why is it okay for Canada to have Glucophage (diabetic medicine) at like 20 bucks a bottle or whatever it is now, (190 pills). But here in the US ... its 196? Explain that one. So, then what insurers do is absorb the cost and then dole (sp?) it out to everyone else on their plans.
The finale is hospitals. They over charge everyone due to everyone going to the hospital for things like a common cold. It takes money and time for doctors there to check on these people. So, what they do is take those charges and add them to customers bills who have insurance. Basically pass the bill on to the legal insured people. Then the insurance companies dole it out to the rest of their clients. The other factor of this equation are the people who put in false info and those who put in false insurance companies. Basically the same thing happens.
I know the last one will be resolved WITH universal healthcare. I'm just trying to share why I feel Obama's plan sucks. If it addressed those concerns, I'd be all for it.
Also, when I worked for Staples. Making 12 bucks an hour. I had better healthcare than Dacaz. I had 5 dollar co-pay, 10 prescription, 50 co pay for hospital, a PCP, and it was an HMO not a PPO. They took 7 bucks out of my paycheck every two weeks.
It was awesome.
We need members of Congress that care more about serving the best interests of the country than getting re-elected. No political office should be available for more than one term; the permanent political campaign is killing the country. No more career politicians.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogacuda
QOTDQuote:
Originally Posted by SpoDaddy
Wow! I always disagree with you SpoDaddy, but i completely agree with that!
just a little comment: I've worked the factory floor. I've packed 75 watt combos for a month and load pallets and 18 wheeler trailers, by hand, for months, in the MS summer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogacuda
factory work wears you out. The people who do that kind of work deserve some sympathy. If you get into that sort of work, and do not already have an education, you will die there.
After a full day of work, I never wanted to read or study when I got home. You're just fucking tired.
If you get into a position like that in life, you will not improve yourself unless someone or something gives you a hand. It has nothing to do with race, background, education, natural skill or intelligence.
You never disagree with me in the bedroom.Quote:
Originally Posted by Finch
i can't when you have that ball gag in my mouth!
in the words of scrouge mcduck's dadQuote:
Originally Posted by DacaZ
"Work smarter, not harder"
and that is really how this country works.
Scrooge McDuck bought Mrs. Beakley a Halloween card and a rotten cake for her birthday. that's also how this country works.
man, you are going to be great in politicsQuote:
Originally Posted by Razor Ramon
"listen to me, I'VE READ THINGS, UNLIKE YOU, WITH YOUR LIFE, AND EMOTIONS, AND EXPERIENCES. I'VE LIKE, THOUGHT ABOUT MORE THAN YOU, I'M SMARTER. HAR HAR HAR"
the people will love you
God, I love Scrooge and Donald.Quote:
Originally Posted by Finch
he wasn't being a jerk, it was in response to Joust's nonsense.Quote:
man, you are going to be great in politics
"listen to me, I'VE READ THINGS, UNLIKE YOU, WITH YOUR LIFE, AND EMOTIONS, AND EXPERIENCES. I'VE LIKE, THOUGHT ABOUT MORE THAN YOU, I'M SMARTER. HAR HAR HAR"
the people will love you
replying to joust and being a jerk, are not exclusive
however, it's completely okay if you're a jerk when replying to joust, especially if you are well-read in reputable news sources
\\\\\\\\\ <- cat's butt on the keyboard, silly kitty
yeah, fuck joust.
Well the hard core republicans, while they're spouting a lot of bullshit, aren't the ones fucking this bill up, since they won't vote for it anyway. It's all this pork and gravy they throw in to try to persuade the moderates. This is the one thing that disappoints me most about Obama (though it isn't something that surprises me, I called it all along, but I hoped I was wrong) is that he compromises and walks the middle way too much. Sometimes I wish he was the radical liberal the repubs painted him as, because at least then we'd get some consistent, coherent ideas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Advocate
Nice maths. If I piss in a bathtub or piss in the ocean; what's gonna be more yellow by the end?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gohron
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Australia
Check the country of birth.
There are papers, going over this in large detail; I can remember a paper I once read in Oncology class that compared Canadian/USA border towns for cancer survival. Exact same demographics, only difference was health care system; for the Americans cancer survival was proportional to socio-economic status, in Canada it wasn't.
Your life-expectancy is lower because you have a horrible health care system, and you let your poor die, regardless of the reason of their poverty.
http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/co...tract/dyp193v1
http://www.ajph.org/cgi/content/abstract/87/7/1156
That's the same platform Ron Paul ran on.Quote:
Originally Posted by buttcheeks
A person shouldn't have to make a choice between a job he likes and a job he doesn't like just so he can see a doctor.Quote:
Originally Posted by DacaZ
SHUT UP HIPPIE
http://www.extremeinet.com/YouShallNotPass2.jpg
NO... BILL... SHALL... NOT... PASS!!!!
You've never been to the Southern United States, have you? It is NOT the same country that I live in. Different areas have different problems and some have a lot more poor people. This is a really big place with a lot of people to take care of. We can't win them all. From what I've seen, it appears that socialist practices work far better with smaller populations than they do with large ones.Quote:
Originally Posted by AstroBlue
I don't know how you get that. MS has some of the smallest population density in the country, and many of our socialist systems are complete bull shit.
Financially, your state is being propped up by the northeast and the west coast, despite whatever posturing your governor does about taking bailout money. You depend on a kind of "socialism" or "redistribution of wealth." Social programs do work well on a large scale, because there's always more balance.
Schools for example, are done on a small scale, and thus range from great to apocalyptic depending on if you drive a few miles.
I can't wait.
http://www.the-nextlevel.com/board/a...1&d=1248898332
I'm aware of it. They teach that in MS studies in high school. The state takes in more money than it puts out. And the largest source of income comes from the government in the form of welfare, government pensions, and vet stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogacuda
I laugh a smug laugh every time we have an election and the state goes red.
Hypocrisy, your name is redneck.
but that doesn't mean that it works. Because isn't the idea of all those hand outs, to help people and get them out of the hole? So, if it works, how has the hand outs become status quo for MS?
IMO, it isn't really OMG hand outs work or OMG pull yourself up by the bootstraps. Regardless of what you choose, if you have it set up poorly, and the masses are naive, stupid, and content at being both, any political outlook will fail. Success starts in the hearts and minds of the people.
It's not the moderate Republicans that are holding things up. It's the moderate Democrats. If the Democrats were united on this they wouldn't need a single Republican vote to pass it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogacuda
If by "work well" you mean one group of people overpays so another group can get a free ride, then yes, it works for a little while. Eventually the people that are overpaying find ways around the system and the system falls apart. This is happening already with Canadian health care; private clinics are a booming business because people don't want to wait in a line. Every time a new private clinic opens up the line gets longer for the people that can't afford to buy private care, because another doctor just left the public system. So now in Canada the people with money get good care, and the people without money get awful care (or no care, if the queue is long enough).Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogacuda
Small scale social programs almost always work better because, on a small scale, it's more likely that everyone in the tax pool will be paying equally into the system.
That's not a good example, because the rules are different for each school district. I live next to New Haven, and the public schools are shit there because Yale (and 10 other colleges) own an obscene amount of property in New Haven and pay no taxes on any of it. I've noticed that a lot of ivy league schools are similar (my girlfriend goes to Columbia, which sits in the middle of Harlem). These schools are cancers in their communities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogacuda
Yes, this is what I was referring too. Hence why I said we need real liberals with backbone.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpoDaddy
Whenever you want to run a stable business you need a large war chest. In the same way small business are vulnerable, unstable, and tend to go belly up at the first downturn, a larger scale social program is more sustainable. That's all. Obviously you still have to make the numbers work to begin with, but if you can do that, it's easier.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpoDaddy
Well Canada's system isn't really ideal, because it's a public-private hybrid where the governement actually outsources through private businesses and ends up paying more as a result.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpoDaddy
And yes, that's one of the options being put on the table for us too, and I don't think that's a great option, but I still think Canada's system works better overall than ours.
I don't get those who so ardently support a single-payer system as the first resort. We've seen the problems that such a system can create in England. Our government has proven its incompetence time and again, I just can't see them doing health care for the general population any differently.
Meanwhile, we have amazing quality health care with our private system... if you can afford it. Some people can't afford it, due to systemic problems already spelled out in this thread. So the ideal course of action would be to rectify these problems and, in so doing, make it more affordable.
Rather than throwing the baby out with the bathwater, why not tweak our high-quality system so that it is easier to buy into, rather than dooming everyone to rationed misery from the very start?
Tempting, but I won't touch it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogacuda
i am quite possibly thinking that a gubment-plan isn't necessary!
Bluedogs make progress! It makes me feel a lot less cynical about this mess. Will the yellerdog democrats and the spodog and squalldog republicans find any common ground here?
i wonder if yellerdog is a yellerdog democrat.
We have?Quote:
Originally Posted by squall_vb
Everyone who actually has experience with national health care please raise your hand.Quote:
Meanwhile, we have amazing quality health care with our private system... if you can afford it. Some people can't afford it, due to systemic problems already spelled out in this thread. So the ideal course of action would be to rectify these problems and, in so doing, make it more affordable.
Rather than throwing the baby out with the bathwater, why not tweak our high-quality system so that it is easier to buy into, rather than dooming everyone to rationed misery from the very start?
Yeah, that's what I thought, you guys don't know what the fuck you're talking about. My healthcare now costs me much much less than it did in the US and it's significantly better, and when I worked in the US I had what was considered good health insurance.
Why are people in this thread defending for-profit insurance?
Because they're faggots.
I DON'T WANT YOUR CHEAP DIRTY JAP DOCTORS
I don't know if it's "national" or not, as that depends on the person here with whom you're speaking, but PR has a island-wide system. It's full of holes, few choices and long lines, but it's a shit load better than no care at all. It's worthless for prescriptions and referrals, but it's great for hospitalization. Better than nothing, imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by bbobb
Private care is much better, but expensive as hell, especially when people here make literally half what they would make stateside.
But you should see all the cool tentacle instruments they have.
Yes. Do a Google search.Quote:
Originally Posted by bbobb
Actually, I DO know what the fuck I'm talking about, and I DO have experience with government-run health care. It's great if you need some allergy meds. But if you have a serious problem? Not so great.Quote:
Everyone who actually has experience with national health care please raise your hand.
Yeah, that's what I thought, you guys don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
Privately run isn't the same as privately paid for. You can use your provincial care cards at privately owned clinics. The government re-imburses them. I never have to wait long to see my doctor either. Walk-in clinics have annoying line ups but I never use those.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpoDaddy
We've also seen the benefits. England's system isn't perfect either, but I'd trade it for ours in a heartbeat. It's really much better.Quote:
Originally Posted by squall_vb
Where does your experience come from?Quote:
Originally Posted by squall_vb
Cuz unless you lived somewhere for a while you're just talking apocryphal bullshit.
Yeaaaah, what serious problem did you or yours have, VB? A cousin's cousin's friend does not count.
I wouldn't say "much" better, but I would agree that it is better in certain cases. But I don't think those limited gains are worth what we would lose in going to the single-payer system you so admire... especially when a few tweaks and regulations could make our private system truly great.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogacuda
I have personal experience, but I'd rather not get into it here. Take that however you want.Quote:
Originally Posted by icarusfall
It's considerably better on a statistically average base, and I think that speaks more than any anecdotal examples.Quote:
Originally Posted by squall_vb
This is really just a humanitarian fucking thing, honestly. It's amazing what a bunch of selfish social darwinists Americans can be sometimes, and it's even more amazing how Americans always think they're the elite even when they aren't, or they defend the elite even when they're not.
I really don't see why we should have to sacrifice 15% of the country on the altar of the 1% who have so much money they can pay for top-tier healthcare above what's available in other countries. It's really a stupid way to look at things.
What, is it FM to M related?Quote:
Originally Posted by squall_vb
It is ok. We do not judge.
Statistically, the uninsured are in the minority. So are the mega-wealthy. The majority of Americans are covered. Granted, they're covered by insurance companies that have too much of a free hand, and that's something I want to see fixed. But they're covered.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogacuda
If you think Fannie Med will improve the quality of care for the majority of Americans, you're kidding yourself.
Like Yoshi said, if they're under 18, over 65, or handicapped, it's a humanitarian thing. I haven't heard one person in this discussion say that those groups shouldn't receive help. As for everyone else, it's a "take responsibility for yourself" thing.Quote:
This is really just a humanitarian fucking thing, honestly. It's amazing what a bunch of selfish social darwinists Americans can be sometimes, and it's even more amazing how Americans always think they're the elite even when they aren't, or they defend the elite even when they're not.
It's also an issue of constitutional authority... as in, the federal government has none. There's nothing to stop the states from engaging their own programs (as Massachusetts has done), but the federal government has no such power.
If it was, I would have a much bigger dick.Quote:
Originally Posted by YellerDog
I don't think you understand the difference between average and median.Quote:
Originally Posted by squall_vb
Dude, shit happens in life. Healtcare is as justifiable of a human right as just about anything. This is exactly the kind of crap I was talking about that I find obscene about this country.Quote:
Originally Posted by squall_vb
*something I messaged YAWA.
I like the gov't out of my life. But there needs to be regulations, there needs to be policing of the prescription drug makers. There needs to be TORT reform. There needs to be tighter control over insurance companies.
There are laws out there, but those laws have loopholes and these companies are exploiting them. They need regulations and laws need to be re-written.
Obama's plan is like putting a band aid on a bleeding jugular. It won't work.