The Obama Presidency

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsO...47761120090724


Awwwww... Crowley was the one who suggested the peace beer. That's what i like about Murica.
i still have to say i don't think it was as big a distraction from healthcare as anything else has been. There are those obnoxious rioters in Iran that are selfishly calling attention to themselves, that completely unimportant war in Afghanistan, those whiney disarmed ex-Iranians in Iraq trying to get us to pay attention to them by getting shot and persecuted. Hell, they're terrars. They all just want us to ignore the health bill so that it's passed. Or isn't passed. Or something.

"One side has to worry about being racist, one side has to worry about discrimination."

And this will never change as long as we have Al Sharptons running around. It's only an issue if you make it one.

Let's ignore it and it'll go away.

The irony of the beer thing was that it was meant as a way of saying, "let's let this slide" but it turned into a whole media circus that prolonged the coverage.

It's been fine in the civilized states so far. This country has more need of an economic stabilizer on the playing field than it does a racial one. Those who make more money tend to have better education. I worry about that more than I worry about if someone hates me because of my olive-colored skin.

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Originally Posted by Razor Ramon

It's been fine in the civilized states so far. This country has more needs more of an economic stabilizer on the playing field than it does a racial one. Those who make more money tend to have better education. I worry about that more than I worry about if someone hates me because of my olive-colored skin.

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if i was a cop i'd arrest you every day, not because i knew what you were doing, but because i knew that you were doing it.


also i agree with everything you said.

can I be the bad cop that beats him?

You have nothing of merit to add to this discussion so why are you trying to participate? This can be a thread where the ill-informed can come and find out what's going on with politics and instead of taking it seriously you're here posting your tripe. If you have insults you know where to post them. Do this thread a favor and turn your fucking computer off you dumb piece of shit.

Mr. Maglight don't like the cut of your jib, son

Well one thing Philly did right.

http://www.philly.com/philly/busines...All=y#comments

http://www.philly.com/dailynews/local/52353042.html

___Yoshi would be proud. ___

ps: excuse the shaky cam. I didn't film it.

pss: I usually boo Andy Reid louder.

Part 1:


Part 2:

I can't watch those videos. All i see and hear is HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONK!
Reading the articles, it sounds like the past few pages in this thread. People are screaming at each other why it's necessary or why it's the worst thing ever. And no one really knows what's going on. The discussion of abortion and suicide is assisted suicide coming up in this shows that. It's like a summer reading book where 10% of the people read the Cliff's Notes, 10% watched the movie, 10% heard the gist of what happens from the Cliff's Notes people, 10% made a whole bunch of shit up, 10% heard a combination of everything else, and everyone else is still wondering what really happened to Michael Jackson. We're all fucked in the end.
Fuck it. I've got an idea: HEALTHCARE FOR NO ONE! No health insurance, no high costs, no doctors at all. If you're caught doing so much as putting hurt-juice on a boo boo, you will be shot on sight.

All I want healthcare wise is a govt run, or a contracted company that's soul purpose is to allow for me to join up with 300 random people to pay insurance as though we were part of a company. Since there is no way to do that I can as of now only get half assed health benefits for a modest sum of around 200, or I could get healthcare plans you'd find at a company for 500+ and that's ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Advocate

Well one thing Philly did right.

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Yelled screamed and booed like they were at a wrestling match? Because Philly's been doing that right for a long fucking time.

I happen to agree with our president.

Our federal government has a disturbingly consistent pattern of failure and incompetence. This is the same government that managed to bungle the $1 billion Cash for Clunkers program. But somehow, when it comes to health care, they're going to magically get it right? This will be the exception to the rule?

Hopefully this post doesn't result in a visit from the White House Snitch Brigade. Or make me too un-American.

LOL.

Nice one Prez.

Heard this the other day on O&A. Thought it was Hilarious!

In all fairness to Hillary Clinton holy fuck I never thought I would say that, the question was pretty damn insulting, translation goofs aside.

Unfortunately for her, the end result is still hilarious.

Insulting? Yeah.
I'll be the first to admit I don't know/care about politics, hence my lack of presence in this thread, but in my mind the secretary of state should be a little more...diplomatic when dealing with tough situations. That could have been handled a million different ways, yet she picks the one that makes her look like an ass.

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Originally Posted by Some Stupid Japanese Name

Insulting? Yeah.
I'll be the first to admit I don't know/care about politics, hence my lack of presence in this thread, but in my mind the secretary of state should be a little more...diplomatic when dealing with tough situations. That could have been handled a million different ways, yet she picks the one that makes her look like an ass.

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I agree that a more measured, diplomatic response would probably be the most desirable. But then again, part of me really enjoyed seeing the organic reaction of a real person, as opposed to the standard, contrived bullshit persona of your everyday politician. The dismissive shrug at the end was especially profound.

She certainly could have handled it better, but I would be lying if I didn't say that there was something pleasantly refreshing about the realness of it all.

edit: Also, someone needs to talk to her about the pantsuits. Especially sitting down in the pantsuits... It ain't pretty.

HEY GUYS!

President's Still Black, Still Gonna Be Black Tomorrow.

Oh Man!

pantsuits or not, there ain't nothing pretty about Hilary.

I really didn't have a problem with the Hillary one. She should have been more restrained. Yet it wasn't a gaffe like President Obama's.

LOL. She's a mean spirited, angry at the world, douche. Is this really news to anyone?

The USPS thing is complicated. If the public option becomes a separate independently funded government corporation, then yes, it's comparable to USPS. USPS usually does better but has suffered by its main function being replaced by something vastly more convenient, internal clusterfuckery, and FedEx/UPS doing certain things better anyway. Government health insurance would have the advantage of not having to worry about being replaced by internets. It would be post-wonderful if other insurance companies did things better and for a better price. Internal clusterfuckery is certain, though!
As funny as it is if you watch it at face value, in context this really isn't a horrible HAW HAW HAW moment. USPS does their job reasonably well.

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Our federal government has a disturbingly consistent pattern of failure and incompetence. This is the same government that managed to bungle the $1 billion Cash for Clunkers program. But somehow, when it comes to health care, they're going to magically get it right? This will be the exception to the rule?

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Cash for Clunkers worked for the people who used it, and the under-estimate of demand was quickly remedied.
I fully expect a public option to be the biggest clusterfuck ever (at first) but as long as it's not an "Okay we tried" effort, and something that people genuinely get behind (treading on rainbows and unicorns territory), it could become good in some areas and better handled elsewhere in others.
Aughhhhguh. You know what, though? I wish people wouldn't focus on this whole public vs. private thing. This whole debate hinges on the shit that's not going to make a difference anyway. Shitty healthcare comes as easy as running up emergency room bills.
What would be nice is this whole cutting costs thing, some kind of regulation over who can be accepted and who can be dropped, and some kind of limit over how many exclusions and exceptions can be listed in a 9,000 health insurance guide book. The problem is that this is giant turd that's been allowed to ferment for way too long. It'd be way easy to let it sit, but it's just going to get worse.
I would like to hear the whole of the blue-dog compromise. I'm sure it's somewhere but it's late and i should have never looked at this thread.

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Hopefully this post doesn't result in a visit from the White House Snitch Brigade. Or make me too un-American.

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Today in the news: Nancy Pelosi is a caustic bitch who gets defensive when you look at her funny. Let's act surprised.
Tomorrow: Americans are mostly fat and shameless
And Squall.... Big brother is so 1984.




Man! I bet that poor kid went home and cried after Hillary was all mean bitch.

After making a complete mockery of the office by going on every talk show that would have him, Obama wastes more time going to represent his political machine... I mean home town... and their Olympic bid and fails. It's been almost 9 months now, and he still has accomplished nothing.

But Yoshi, Ba-rot Obama has helped to rid the world of Zombie Michael Jacko in President Evil #2 100 days later

http://www.antarctic-press.com/html/..._V001_N002.jpg

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Originally Posted by Yoshi

It's been almost 9 months now, and he still has accomplished nothing.

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Market's up 17.64% compared to -16.43% for Bush and 9.48% Clinton in the same period?

(Jan 20 - Oct 1 of ING YR)

You're smarter than that.

Chicago getting dropped first was pretty lols.

It should infuriate people that he spent a lot of tax money to fly over there just in case Chicago won so that he could claim that he had something to do with it.

And that doesn't even mention the fact that while he's doing that he's not solving all of the crises that he claims exist back home.

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Originally Posted by Yoshi

After making a complete mockery of the office by going on every talk show that would have him, Obama wastes more time going to represent his political machine... I mean home town... and their Olympic bid and fails. It's been almost 9 months now, and he still has accomplished nothing.

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Hey, he's like totally charging up to do a kamehameha of stimulus. Just you wait and see! It's gonna be awesome! We'll have a chicken in every pot any day now.

Honestly, it's still congress fucking everything up as usual. I wonder if it would be possible for Obama, or any pres to do well with our rancid cunts of congress people we have.

RE: Dow partial recovery - Also why shouldn't it count? Rush and Mark Levin (sp?) sure liked to attribute market confidence in Obama to the massive fall in Feb-March. They don't talk much now.

The Dow is just about the worst indicator of anything, unless you look at long-term trends, which are all positive always. Think about it. There are a lot of people who make their living in the market with their money or others. No matter how bleak things look, these people have to invest or tell others to invest in something. That something then drives the Dow back up. It's somewhat self-fulfilling.

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Originally Posted by Bojack

I wonder if it would be possible for Obama, or any pres to do well with our rancid cunts of congress people we have.

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This is a fair question. Although when you can't get your own party to line up, it's hard to get a free pass.

RE: Dow again - Well tell that shit to the radio. I'd like to listen to conservative 'news' but it seems most the time, all they do is play up fan service with bullshit like this or whether or not Obama's a citizen.

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Originally Posted by Yoshi

This is a fair question. Although when you can't get your own party to line up, it's hard to get a free pass.

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Indeed he doesn't get a free pass which makes it quite dissappointing. I was hoping he wouldn't be all hat and no cattle but unless he shapes up soon I won't be voting for him in 2012 most likely. Fool me once and all but if you can't get shit done w/ a government controlled by your own party.....

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Originally Posted by Yoshi

After making a complete mockery of the office by going on every talk show that would have him, Obama wastes more time going to represent his political machine... I mean home town... and their Olympic bid and fails.

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The Cash for Clunkers causes worse than expected September sales, as well as possible lower than expected sales throughout the year and this is what you have? Goodness. That he actually went is stupider than not getting the bid for that shit hole of a city.
And please. Speaking to the public through a medium that people will pay attention to is a mockery? Hey, president has something to say, we should hear it through news clips on AM840 and AM770 so it can be washed through the liberal and conservative mouthpieces. That way we won't have to think, we'll know what we're supposed to think.

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It's been almost 9 months now, and he still has accomplished nothing.

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So what's all this i hear about moving our country closer to socialism? He can't be doing that by accomplishing nothing.
(Children's Healthcare bill finally passed, Iran is being told to calm down while Israel is being told to stop being dicks, Credit Reform passed, the rest of the world doesn't hate the US (even though they always should). There's more! But who the fuck knows when it'll pay off or turn out to be a Bad Idea Afterall.))



Obama should learn to use that executive power shit. That'll show everyone.

His words were that Unemployment will not go passed 8%. Two days ago it was announced its 9.8.

Awesome.

Good thing that stimulus package that was passed in March is doing a bang up job.

Hows the GM bailout? The one where GM promised the Gov't that, if they (gov't) bail them out. Saturn would find a buyer and the US would NOT lose another car company .... oh wait. Penske just bailed on the deal and GM is closing down Saturn by years end.

I like how Obama is about to approve another 35 billion to housing and FHA loans. AWESOME.

THANKS OBAMA!

I agree I was not happy with the flying to appeal for the Olympics especially cause honestly Rio deserved it anyways.

But his administration has lead to more open talks with the rest of the world which is a great thing, he's got several things (Healthcare, Climate Control, and hopefully he focuses on Afghanistan like he should)

And while the Cash for Clunkers caused September sales to take a hit, it was still effective in many ways that it allowed car sales to clear older inventory and it put many people back to work which is still a gamble that may or may not pay off depending how sales go the following months.

Something that will effect my opinion of him is how he handles Afghanistan, I firmly believe that we should be putting effort there, and while looking for a new strategy is good we can't take too long. And honestly I'd be in all favor for someone to take out Karzai so we could get someone in there who could provide a better ally and affirm more backing from the govt which we all know is corrupt as shit.

And yeah So Saturn is being closed, they had a deal that would work but they balked, yeah that's the govt fault, what a stupid fucking thing to attack.

Gasp Unemployment went to 9.8% he should have stopped that! are you saying he should have put more money into the economy, the very thing you're whining about, or he should have let it go in which unemployment would probably be well into the double digits months ago? I'd love to hear which answer you have to something that was gonig to happen to anyway.

The economy is stabilizing like it or not, but companies will always be quicker to cut jobs than they will be to hire more people.

So far Obama has a lot in the works, but none that have completely come to fruition yet, good thing he has 3 more years for those to work out huh.

One thing that bothers me is the Republican party who seems to rarely get involved, I think it's both parties faults and that pisses me off, more bi-partisan less strong arming.

I'm actually so far kind of pleased with how Hilary Clinton is working out at Secretary of State, that scares me, but I've been doing some reading and she does have a few opinions I really like.

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Originally Posted by Finch

So what's all this i hear about moving our country closer to socialism? He can't be doing that by accomplishing nothing.

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I agree. I didn't say I was disappointed that he had done nothing.

And ask yourself how Cash for Clunkers will be paid for before you praise it.

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Originally Posted by Thief Silver

I agree I was not happy with the flying to appeal for the Olympics especially cause honestly Rio deserved it anyways.

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I really didn't have a problem with him going to Copenhagen. Tony Blair went and got it for England. Putin went to Copenhagen and got the Olympics for 2014.

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Originally Posted by Thief Silver

And while the Cash for Clunkers caused September sales to take a hit, it was still effective in many ways that it allowed car sales to clear older inventory and it put many people back to work which is still a gamble that may or may not pay off depending how sales go the following months.

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No it really wasn't. It hurt more than helped. The inventory would have moved either way. Cash for Clunkers did nothing, but polish a turd.

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Originally Posted by Thief Silver

Something that will effect my opinion of him is how he handles Afghanistan, I firmly believe that we should be putting effort there, and while looking for a new strategy is good we can't take too long.

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There is a strategy; it's to increase the troop numbers. Its Congress and his own party that don't want to increase it.

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Originally Posted by Thief Silver

And yeah So Saturn is being closed, they had a deal that would work but they balked, yeah that's the govt fault, what a stupid fucking thing to attack.

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No its not. It was part of the deal that GM agreed too. If you understood where I am coming from and not what party I am aligned too. You'd understand I was more or less going after GM and the flimsy contract the gov't signed. If there was more regulations GM would have tried harder to find a suitable partner.

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Originally Posted by Thief Silver

Gasp Unemployment went to 9.8% he should have stopped that!

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Nope its not his fault, but he never should have promised on TV that his stimulus would stop unemployment from going over 8%.

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Originally Posted by Thief Silver

are you saying he should have put more money into the economy, the very thing you're whining about, or he should have let it go in which unemployment would probably be well into the double digits months ago? I'd love to hear which answer you have to something that was gonig to happen to anyway.

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Read above.

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Originally Posted by Thief Silver

The economy is stabilizing like it or not, but companies will always be quicker to cut jobs than they will be to hire more people.

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Please tell me what is showing you the economy is stabilizing.

The stock market? No, we've gone over that the Stock Market is not a proper guideline to how the economy is going. Typically the Stock Market is the last sign that the economy is growing or falling.

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Originally Posted by Thief Silver

So far Obama has a lot in the works, but none that have completely come to fruition yet, good thing he has 3 more years for those to work out huh.

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Like?

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Originally Posted by Thief Silver

One thing that bothers me is the Republican party who seems to rarely get involved, I think it's both parties faults and that pisses me off, more bi-partisan less strong arming.

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Good thing the Dems control both the Senate and the House. I mean they have the majority in both. Obama could easily pass all his bills he wants, why is it taking so long for his healthcare plan to get through.

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Originally Posted by Thief Silver

I'm actually so far kind of pleased with how Hilary Clinton is working out at Secretary of State, that scares me, but I've been doing some reading and she does have a few opinions I really like.

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I'd rather have Hillary as president. No lie.

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There is a strategy; it's to increase the troop numbers. Its Congress and his own party that don't want to increase it.

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That's not a strategy that's an increase in resources, it wouldn't hurt to spend a few weeks looking at how those resources are being used. As long as he within the end of this month sends more troops and maybe makes some changes then I will be happy. But I am a strong believer in the war there.

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Nope its not his fault, but he never should have promised on TV that his stimulus would stop unemployment from going over 8%.

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he's a politician who made something he can't live up to, mistake but they all do it sadly.

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Please tell me what is showing you the economy is stabilizing.

The stock market? No, we've gone over that the Stock Market is not a proper guideline to how the economy is going. Typically the Stock Market is the last sign that the economy is growing or falling.

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Housing markets and spending are both stabilizing, even if it's due to money from the Govt tricking the people into being confident is a way to get things back to normal. Unemployment rates will be the last thing to be fixed I believe, it just makes sense from a business stand point to wait out rehiring people.

Leaving, I'll post more later.

If you know what McChrystal is asking for its to increase the Troops, thereby allowing for them to enact the strategy they want. There is a strategy and right now they need to increase the troops to match the increase in Al Qaeda forces.

Jobs is usually one of the first indicators, though. I hope someone like Rich will correct me. I honestly want him too. He took economics for christ sake!!!

Obama is fucked in Afghanistan. If he does the right thing and authorizes another surge, he will have to admit that Bush was right. If he doesn't, it's going to be a disaster, and he is going to have more blood on his hands. I hope he chooses to fail in the correct manner for the country for once.

Reading Thief's arguments is really sad. He essentially admitted to voting without understanding the issues, and its clear he still doesn't get it.

FYI: Thief I just noticed you said Spending is stabilizing. Really? Obama has spent a shit ton of money and he plans to spend more ... aka 35 Billion more in housing by next week. The healthcare bill will increase spending as well .. by a shit ton by the way.

I think he meant consumer spending, but a lot of that has been artificially generated with stuff like the Cash for Clunkers, which of course we will have to pay for at some point.

Oh. In that case ...

http://www.cbc.ca/money/story/2009/0...nce-falls.html

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Originally Posted by Advocate

Jobs is usually one of the first indicators, though. I hope someone like Rich will correct me. I honestly want him too. He took economics for christ sake!!!

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And I'm still unemployed. The 9.8% is disheartening, to say the least. At this point, I want to just go back to school, but I can't afford that and my parents won't pay for a graduate degree. I want a stupid government (NYC) analyst position so badly, but no one is hiring, especially entry level. It's gotten to the point where I only bother searching for a job once or twice a week. Not like it matters though, since no one calls back. I wish I spent time networking in college.

http://www.the-nextlevel.com/board/a...1&d=1254535385

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Originally Posted by Yoshi

And ask yourself how Cash for Clunkers will be paid for before you praise it.

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By sucking Chinese cock. The same way Washington pays for everything else.

Well China paid for the bailout, cash for clunkers, and the GM/Chrysler mess. Oh lets not forget hey also paid for the Cap and Trade.

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Originally Posted by Advocate

Well China paid for the bailout, cash for clunkers, and the GM/Chrysler mess. Oh lets not forget hey also paid for the Cap and Trade.

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Ha we got them fuckers good! They gave us bazillions and what do they have to show for it? Shit that's what! We didn't do a damn thing for anyone with that cash and fuck 'em if they think we're paying them back ever. They can burn their shit they'll never make this money back!

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Originally Posted by Bojack

Ha we got them fuckers good! They gave us bazillions and what do they have to show for it? Shit that's what! We didn't do a damn thing for anyone with that cash and fuck 'em if they think we're paying them back ever. They can burn their shit they'll never make this money back!

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are you black? Or are you an Acorn worker?

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Originally Posted by Advocate

Well China paid for the bailout, cash for clunkers, and the GM/Chrysler mess. Oh lets not forget hey also paid for the Cap and Trade.

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I guess it's a good thing that the Saturn deal fell through; it sounded like Penske just wanted to sell rebadged Chinese imports through the Saturn dealer network once the contract with GM expired.

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Originally Posted by Advocate

are you black? Or are you an Acorn worker?

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Nope, just a cocky smart ass cracka.

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Originally Posted by Yoshi

Obama is fucked in Afghanistan. If he does the right thing and authorizes another surge, he will have to admit that Bush was right. If he doesn't, it's going to be a disaster, and he is going to have more blood on his hands. I hope he chooses to fail in the correct manner for the country for once.

Reading Thief's arguments is really sad. He essentially admitted to voting without understanding the issues, and its clear he still doesn't get it.

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What do I not get?

How healthcare reform is being pushed through without actually having it just plain forced on everyone?

How forcefully creating consumer confidence in the economy can lead to actual increase in the economy?

How we have a president who is actually taking part in the world instead of fighting it and engaging in one of the most important things, Diplomacy? Sorry but it can't all be about America, though we can certainly lead the way, and I know you have these bullshit ideas about talking to people, justifying their ideals and making them seem significant when sometimes they're not.

On the international front I'm incredibly happy with Obama, his foreign policy is what I hoped for which I know you don't like because its' not us saying "HEY, WE'RE IN CHARGE, FUCK YALL IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT."

And what will he have to admit Bush was right about? You mean when he kind of ignore Afghanistan and just focused Solely on Iraq? Bush had some right ideas and the more I look at it, going over there is not necessarily a terrible thing but it was handled in a shit manner. And the surged worked well, there's proof of that, it also didn't work well in Nam and just added to the humiliation.

He needs to send more troops, but there's little harm in taking a look at how the resources are managed. Right now a lot of the problems is they clear out Taliban, then because they're short handed they leave to another town, Taliban returns, kills anyone who helped us, and the situation becomes worse. So I think from there, the answer is more troops, but I don't know everything about the war from that point, and we have to clean up their corrupt government as well, because people get treated like shit there from everyone.

And yeah, we have healthcare reform, we have him actually pushing for more energy efficiency, and whether or not global warming is truly all man's fault we still have the abilities to slow it's course and we should. Healthcare reform should be going faster, but at this point it's in congress's hands.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Advocate

FYI: Thief I just noticed you said Spending is stabilizing. Really? Obama has spent a shit ton of money and he plans to spend more ... aka 35 Billion more in housing by next week. The healthcare bill will increase spending as well .. by a shit ton by the way.

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Healthcare hemorrhages money, the longer it's put off the more money is lost, I suppose we could wait until we have a surplus or something to fix it, but we'll have lost extra money from waiting too long.

But I mean I can see the greatest country in the world not being able to do what so many others have. Sure why not.

We should have either let the companies fail with no bail outs, or we continue putting money into the economy. Both methods are are dreadful. Unless someone has a brilliant middle ground. Bush along with everyone else pushed the initial bail outs through, it's not a partisan issue, it's just one that now that the repubs are outnumbered they can go to the opposite side. If the republicans were in charge the democrats would be doing the same thing.

We still have people putting bullshit earmarks on bills for things we don't need, lobbyists still persuade the govt to throw more money their way, buying contracts so that they can get the work even if they're more expensive or less efficient. It's an everyone problem.

Oh and Unemployment and Consumer spending still aren't going up much, but they've been going down less for the last 5 months. Feel free to point out a scenario where these statistics jump back immediately. Because if it's sound I'll write you in for president. As I said things are stabilizing, in the process of, in a process that will probably take a bit of time sadly, things are not stable yet. No one (I think) is dumb enough to say "Hey, things are back to normal" they're still getting worse, at a much slower rate.

Is it time for me to get back in this politics thread or not?

It's time if you want it to be!

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Originally Posted by MarsKitten

Is it time for me to get back in this politics thread or not?

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no.

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Originally Posted by Thief Silver

What do I not get?

How healthcare reform is being pushed through without actually having it just plain forced on everyone?

How forcefully creating consumer confidence in the economy can lead to actual increase in the economy?

How we have a president who is actually taking part in the world instead of fighting it and engaging in one of the most important things, Diplomacy? Sorry but it can't all be about America, though we can certainly lead the way, and I know you have these bullshit ideas about talking to people, justifying their ideals and making them seem significant when sometimes they're not.

On the international front I'm incredibly happy with Obama, his foreign policy is what I hoped for which I know you don't like because its' not us saying "HEY, WE'RE IN CHARGE, FUCK YALL IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT."

And what will he have to admit Bush was right about? You mean when he kind of ignore Afghanistan and just focused Solely on Iraq? Bush had some right ideas and the more I look at it, going over there is not necessarily a terrible thing but it was handled in a shit manner. And the surged worked well, there's proof of that, it also didn't work well in Nam and just added to the humiliation.

He needs to send more troops, but there's little harm in taking a look at how the resources are managed. Right now a lot of the problems is they clear out Taliban, then because they're short handed they leave to another town, Taliban returns, kills anyone who helped us, and the situation becomes worse. So I think from there, the answer is more troops, but I don't know everything about the war from that point, and we have to clean up their corrupt government as well, because people get treated like shit there from everyone.

And yeah, we have healthcare reform, we have him actually pushing for more energy efficiency, and whether or not global warming is truly all man's fault we still have the abilities to slow it's course and we should. Healthcare reform should be going faster, but at this point it's in congress's hands.

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You answered your own question over and over.

It's a good thing I can comfort myself knowing that John McCain would have folded to a majority of Democrats in Congress faster than you can say "Fuckface", so really how you voted last election made 0 difference.

The saddest part of all this in my eyes, is something that became blatantly obvious to us all over the last 8 years. Even though by 2012 I'm sure the majority of the ADD generation will have forgotten 2001-2006, happily pulling the lever for Sarah Palin, it is still relevant to mention that both parties shit their pants and drop the ball when they finally get enough power to actually commit their agenda to paper and law.

This nation politicizes everything now. Everything, and we are coming closer and closer to the day when it would be entirely conceivable that some preventable disaster (Giant, flaming, meteor or something) will be coming to ruin our day, and we will be doomed as our fearless leaders in both parties sit on their hands and endlessly debate whether the giant rock actually exists as it burns hole in our fucking atmosphere.

Also Healthcare without a public option is not worth a fucking reform. Continue to screw the middle class and just make it widely accessible to the Upper class and extremely poor. We will be better off that way.

The insurance companies are greedy faggots who overcharge for everything and have the nerve to put a limit on the coverage they will give you depending on how sick you are, but it is clear to me now that we care more about them than individual taxpayer and his accessible options in this country. We always have, and we always will. So fuck it. Everyone who can't afford health care get sick and leave the burden on the consumer instead. Everyone who can't afford health care get sick and declare bankruptcy. Hit the pocket books of the upper class in other ways, till they understand that there is NO DECENT MIDDLE CLASS OPTION FOR HEALTHCARE IN THIS COUNTRY THAT ISN'T EITHER JOB DEPENDENT OR DISABILITY DEPENDENT, and everytime someone gets sick and can't pay for it, you can pick up the fucking bill in your premiums till you decide to do something about it.

I love how people buy so openly the conservative line about how we should pity insurance companies for having bad business models, and how a cheap public option would drive them under.

That's the fucking entire point of capitalism faggots.

move to Canada

but I agree with paragraph 3. The bickering is shit.

Oh shut the fuck up with that.

Wanting relevant middle class health care options is not unconstitutional nor is it socialism.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by youandwhosearmy

Also Healthcare without a public option is not worth a fucking reform.

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Truth. I'd got as far as to say if it's even an option and not a true single payer system, it's not worth doing.

I think part of the problem we can't get shit done anymore is that the existence of 24 hour news networks means the media has to constantly justify the fact that they're on 24 hours by making everything sound like the fucking apocaplypse.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thief Silver

Healthcare hemorrhages money, the longer it's put off the more money is lost, I suppose we could wait until we have a surplus or something to fix it, but we'll have lost extra money from waiting too long.

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Who is "we"? Who is hemorrhaging money? How is money "lost"? Is it set on fire? Put down your beer hat with a glass of the Kool Aid on each side.

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But I mean I can see the greatest country in the world not being able to do what so many others have. Sure why not.

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Stop asking the "can we" question and ask the "should we" one. It's nearly always more important.

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We should have either let the companies fail with no bail outs, or we continue putting money into the economy. Both methods are are dreadful. Unless someone has a brilliant middle ground. Bush along with everyone else pushed the initial bail outs through, it's not a partisan issue, it's just one that now that the repubs are outnumbered they can go to the opposite side. If the republicans were in charge the democrats would be doing the same thing.

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No, it isn't a partisan thing. It's those who understand economics against those who don't. Unfortunately, both Bush and Obama fall in the latter category. Bush absolutely should have never signed a bail out, but he did, which I agree makes him as guilty as Obama in the pissing away of tax money down rat holes from where it will never return.

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We still have people putting bullshit earmarks on bills for things we don't need, lobbyists still persuade the govt to throw more money their way, buying contracts so that they can get the work even if they're more expensive or less efficient. It's an everyone problem.

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Yes, we do. One of the banking industries biggest supporters is now our Vice President. Biden has been in that industries pocket since before you knew who the fuck he was.

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Oh and Unemployment and Consumer spending still aren't going up much, but they've been going down less for the last 5 months. Feel free to point out a scenario where these statistics jump back immediately. Because if it's sound I'll write you in for president. As I said things are stabilizing, in the process of, in a process that will probably take a bit of time sadly, things are not stable yet. No one (I think) is dumb enough to say "Hey, things are back to normal" they're still getting worse, at a much slower rate.

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They've been stabilizing over the last five months, huh? And Obama took office eight months ago. So explain to me what he did that would have a macroeconomic effect less than three months after it was signed into law. And that assumes he signed it his first day in office. At least you're in good company in the group that doesn't understand economics.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Frogacuda

I think part of the problem we can't get shit done anymore is that the existence of 24 hour news networks means the media has to constantly justify the fact that they're on 24 hours by making everything sound like the fucking apocaplypse.

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Amen to this.

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Originally Posted by youandwhosearmy

I love how people buy so openly the conservative line about how we should pity insurance companies for having bad business models, and how a cheap public option would drive them under.

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Bad business models should drive companies out of business. Big government subsidized with even more money than it is allegedly saving shouldn't. "That's the fucking entire point of capitalism faggots."

This thread is fascinating though. It's gone from everything in the world being Bush's fault to now being our political system. So much for...

and that's my biggest problem with Obama. His fans (well, not all fans, but the ones on blogs and such) are zealots and watching them dance and spin is hilarious. He hasn't done much yet, nor did I expect him to in less than a year. But apparently some people believe he's already parted the seas and fixed half of the world's ills.

Insurance companies have bad business models Yoshi, and they all tow each other in so premiums stay at a certain price, not because they are necessary to function as a company, but because they are more profitable and we need to keep the share holders happy.

That's wonderful if you're selling HD Televisions, but it's bullshit when you are dealing with my fucking HEALTH. If you can't find a way to be profitable competing with lets say 20 dollars a week government insurance, that is your own fucking greedy ass fault as a company, because as it is, you have 40 million+ Americans not currently covered, and that's a pretty big market to grab.

I have no pity for a company that can't adjust to bring their product to more people.

But as we have fought on this before always you think companies having to worry about the bottom line more than the quality of their product, because worrying about either goes hand in hand with how successful they are, and I'm telling you when you apply it to something like health care, taking that stance is naive to the point of absurdity. Even if you have a paying customer as an insurance company, you can still decide NOT to cover them for any number of reasons if it is going to affect your bottom line. Since you pretty much never suffer any kind of public outings or government blow back for it, it isn't anything to be afraid of as a company either.

Could you please explain to us where people's rights end and where personal responsibility begins? Because clearly you're not reading from the Constitution.

Excuse me? Considering I had a father denied cancer treatments because his insurance company decided they had paid enough out of their pocket, so he died a lot sooner, and lot more painfully than he should have, I'd like you to specify your question better please.

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Originally Posted by Yoshi

Because clearly you're not reading from the Constitution.

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Considering we have a Federal Reserve at all, no one is reading from the constitution anymore apparently.

While that is a sad story, why would the government taking over help that case? The US has the highest cancer survival rate in the world. Because the governments in other countries don't fund that nearly as much as they do other treatment.

Here is where I am coming from. If everyone has to be covered on my dime, I want smoking to be illegal. I want obesity to be illegal. I want anything else that generates more risk on my investment to be limited, because rights and freedoms are forever linked. If you want more rights, you sometimes have to give up freedoms to get them. Nothing is free.

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Originally Posted by Joust Williams

While that is a sad story, why would the government taking over help that case? The US has the highest cancer survival rate in the world. Because the governments in other countries don't fund that nearly as much as they do other treatment.

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And that's wonderful. However it still leaves my step mother about 55,000 dollars in debt, when she wouldn't be in debt at all otherwise.

That's my point about it. If you have not forgone coverage in your life, or had a relative whose bills you had to pay because they couldn't afford it, you have no ground to stand on in this argument because those without coverage right now live in fear not just of being sick, or perhaps dying from it, but leaving their families with absurd amounts of money to pay back after they are gone. A lot of people without it state they'd rather just kill themselves than leave that kind of burden for those left behind.

If middle class, hardworking, Americans even have to think of it that way, WE ARE DOING SOMETHING WRONG.

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Originally Posted by Yoshi

Here is where I am coming from. If everyone has to be covered on my dime, I want smoking to be illegal. I want obesity to be illegal. I want anything else that generates more risk on my investment to be limited, because rights and freedoms are forever linked. If you want more rights, you sometimes have to give up freedoms to get them. Nothing is free.

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I agree to be honest. I'd want drinking to be illegal alongside smoking to be honest. That being said, you know it would never happen.

Anyway congress just took a step to making smoking illegal this year and they did it without even having a public option.

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Originally Posted by youandwhosearmy

If you have not forgone coverage in your life, or had a relative whose bills you had to pay because they couldn't afford it, you have no ground to stand on in this argument

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Bullshit. I pay taxes, so I have a leg to stand on in every argument regarding the subject.

Every insurance option I have ever looked into plainly states the maximum liability if one exists. If that number is not suitable to the risk the family is willing to take, they should choose a different plan or get a secondary provider to subsidize it. The company doesn't "decide" they have paid enough. They tell you to read the fucking contract you signed.

Yeah but he wouldn't have been treated in another country either. Look, health care is not a miracle science. My grandfather had cancer spread so rapidly, they performed surgery to remove it all so he could live 4 more years, he was virtually in a coma because of the surgery (not supposed to happen) for several months, and he died a few months later. All that for nothing.

I'm not seeing how the government is going to help your situation. What would have happened is that he wouldn't have been treated at all and then no debt. Is that better? I don't know.

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Originally Posted by youandwhosearmy

I agree to be honest. I'd want drinking to be illegal alongside smoking to be honest. That being said, you know it would never happen.

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I agree it will never happen, and it shouldn't. And neither should nationalized health care. Part of freedom is responsibility.

It fascinates me that the same people who went ape shit over the Patriot Act want nationalized health care. I guess those hypocrites think big brother is great, as long as they get to choose which bed he sleeps on in their house.

Yoshi. People who can't afford SECOND plans can't get them. There are people in this country who can't afford a 1st plan. SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT YOUR ABSURD REPUBLICAN BULLSHIT PERSONAL RESPONSIBILTY.

WANTING AFFORDABLE SINGLE PAYER HEALTH INSURANCE IN THIS COUNTRY IS NOT FUCKING ANYTHING UP, and the only ones not doing a damn thing about it, are those wonderful greedy piece of shit insurance companies you love so much.

And considering I watched it fucking happen to my Father do not tell me how you fantasize this shit works, you are wrong.

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Originally Posted by Yoshi

I agree it will never happen, and it shouldn't. And neither should nationalized health care. Part of freedom is responsibility.

It fascinates me that the same people who went ape shit over the Patriot Act want nationalized health care. I guess those hypocrites think big brother is great, as long as they get to choose which bed he sleeps on in their house.

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You have completely missed the point. You are politicizing this. You should try to understand the other side of this for once Yoshi. You really should. Especially since unpaid health insurance bills affect your premiums.

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Originally Posted by Joust Williams

Yeah but he wouldn't have been treated in another country either. Look, health care is not a miracle science. My grandfather had cancer spread so rapidly, they performed surgery to remove it all so he could live 4 more years, he was virtually in a coma because of the surgery (not supposed to happen) for several months, and he died a few months later. All that for nothing.

I'm not seeing how the government is going to help your situation. What would have happened is that he wouldn't have been treated at all and then no debt. Is that better? I don't know.

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That's exactly my point. At least my step mother would not be 55,000 dollars in debt. I would say yes it is, considering it's same outcome wouldn't you?

Apply it to yourself, would rather die and cost your kids 200,000 dollars, or die and cost them nothing?

Stop making this personal with anecdotes. I'm not going there, and neither should you.

I want to see a study on the spending habbits of the X million who "can't afford" insurance. I have no doubt that some percentage of the number is legit, but I guarantee you a significant percentage of it is people who can't get their priorities straight and have satellite TV, brand new cars, jewelry, etc. There is absolutely no reason why anyone should subsidize those people. It's like the people who use food stamps to buy lobster at the grocery store. It absolutely happens, and that is where the effort to fix the problem should start. How do you improve a system that you haven't bothered to study enough to understand its true weaknesses?

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Originally Posted by youandwhosearmy

You have completely missed the point. You are politicizing this. You should try to understand the other side of this for once Yoshi. You really should. Especially since unpaid health insurance bills affect your premiums.

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There are no unpaid bills if you deny service. Let the kids, elderly, and handicapped in. Let those who should be working to pay their own damn bills rot.

"That's exactly my point. At least my step mother would not be 55,000 dollars in debt. I would say yes it is, considering it's same outcome wouldn't you?"

Yes, but I don't have a crystal ball. With him being in the government's hands, it's a lose/lose unless something miraculous happens. And I don't see why you trust them when you don't trust them on anything else.

Of course this whole discussion is moot, because Obama can't get anything passed despite a large majority in both houses of Congress. That's what happens when your party is made up of people who are just anti-everything. They can't even agree on what to be against.

I'll stop making it personal when you stop politicizing it and taking a behind the glass wall stance. You have no experience on the other side of the fence with this shit Yoshi, therefore you have no real idea of what the other side of this goes through.

But I'll humor you.

I would think the amount of personal debt simply offering affordable, health care to single payers would clear up, would be enticing for anyone. That's more money that goes towards other things in the economy. That's people not inheriting thousands in debt when a parent dies, and not suddenly losing their cars, or their houses because they can't pay it off. That's the lack of the consumer being overwhelmed with bills that are both unfair and contribute to a snowball effect into a downward spiral.

I personally would think, not having to worry about health care anymore, would in the long run help immensely considering the #1 reason people get so sick and die leaving behind unreasonable debt is because we do not promote preventative care in this country. People can't afford it. You can't go and get screened if you don't have the money for it. You don't even think of it when you can't afford it. You just let that cough go, cause you know it's the choice between rent, bills, and an 800 dollar x-ray.

That's how I've looked at it for a long time though.

That all sounds great. Now show me how we pay for it.

And about this "never been on the other side" nonsense... my parents both worked at Sears when I was very young. I somehow doubt they had spectacular insurance. And if you mean me personally instead of my parents then I guess I was "lucky" to complete a public school education with the help of student loans. I know that road is not available to everyone, thus why it is called "public"... oh wait...

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Originally Posted by Joust Williams

"That's exactly my point. At least my step mother would not be 55,000 dollars in debt. I would say yes it is, considering it's same outcome wouldn't you?"

Yes, but I don't have a crystal ball. With him being in the government's hands, it's a lose/lose unless something miraculous happens. And I don't see why you trust them when you don't trust them on anything else.

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And I don't see why you trust corporations more concerned with the bottom line than your health, considering the health care industry does not really go hand in hand with quality of care and the bottom line.

I thought you said preventative care would save a ton of money? Isn't that the bottom line? How are they not related again? Quality and cost are always related. Bad quality generates waste, which always has a large price tag.

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Originally Posted by Yoshi

That all sounds great. Now show me how we pay for it.

And about this "never been on the other side" nonsense... my parents both worked at Sears when I was very young. I somehow doubt they had spectacular insurance. And if you mean me personally instead of my parents then I guess I was "lucky" to complete a public school education with the help of student loans. I know that road is not available to everyone, thus why it is called "public"... oh wait...

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No Yoshi there are plenty of people who cannot find a job with decent insurance, hence the complaint of no decent, affordable, single player plan. You hyping how much better you are than everyone because you chose a path that led to good fortune solves nothing and really just makes you look like a conceited prick.

And I meant your experience without insurance or being covered, or inheriting debt, or having an insurance company cop out on you, or not being able to afford it at all for a period of your life, while you were sick...

That clear it up?

And to answer your question about how we pay for it, it depends doesn't it? I mean considering something like 50 percent of personal debt ends up being health care related don't you think it kind of pays for itself in the long run when people aren't having to worry about those bills any more and can finally decide to go out and buy toasters, and shoes, and lip gloss again.

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Originally Posted by Yoshi

I thought you said preventative care would save a ton of money? Isn't that the bottom line? How are they not related again? Quality and cost are always related. Bad quality generates waste, which always has a large price tag.

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And what holds health care companies accountable for quality? Consumers certainly don't in this industry. Considering employers only offer you one company's insurance generally, and you'd have to go outside of your discounted work insurance to get anything else, and anything else is generally not an affordable option to the single payer, middle class employee, I have no idea where you are getting that this is regulated by consumers like everything else in capitalism.

The entire model of this is flawed without some kind of oversight, and has been for years and years.

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Originally Posted by youandwhosearmy

No Yoshi there are plenty of people who cannot find a job with decent insurance, hence the complaint of no decent, affordable, single player plan. You hyping how much better you are than everyone because you chose a path that led to good fortune solves nothing and really just makes you look like a conceited prick.

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"Good fortune". Everyone who is successful is either born that way or got lucky, right? It has nothing to do with no choosing some stupid liberal arts major that anyone with a fucking clue would know wasn't going to lead to a job with good insurance. Nope, it must just be bad luck. Woe is me. The world is out to get me...

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And to answer your question about how we pay for it, it depends doesn't it? I mean considering something like 50 percent of personal debt ends up being health care related don't you think it kind of pays for itself in the long run when people aren't having to worry about those bills any more and can finally decide to go out and buy toasters, and shoes, and lip gloss again.

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I want a source on 50% of personal debt being medical related. I would tie that right back to the priorities problem.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by youandwhosearmy

And what holds health care companies accountable for quality? Consumers certainly don't in this industry. Considering employers only offer you one companies insurance generally, and you'd have to go outside of your discounted work insurance to get anything else, and generally that is not affordable, I have no idea what you are talking about.

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It's in the insurance companies' best interests for their customers to get quality care. It improves their bottom line incredibly.

I turn on the tube and what do I see
A whole lotta people cryin' "Don't blame me"
They point their crooked little fingers at everbody else
spend all their time feelin' sorry for themselves
Victim of this, victim of that
Your momma's too thin; your daddy's too fat

Get over it
Get over it
All this whinin' and cryin' and pitchin' a fit
Get over it, get over it

You say you haven't been the same since you had your little crash
But you might feel better if they gave you some cash
The more I think about it, Old Billy was right
Let's kill all the lawyers - kill 'em tonight
You don't want to work; you want to live like a king
But the big, bad world doesn't owe you a thing

Get over it
Get over it
If you don't want to play, then you might as well split
Get over it, get over it

It's like going to confession every time I hear you speak
You're makin' the most of your losin' streak
Some call it sick, but I call it weak

You drag it around like a ball and chain
You wallow in the guilt; you wallow in the pain
You wave it like a flag, you wear it like a crown
Got your mind in the gutter, bringin' everybody down
Complain about the present and blame it on the past
I'd like to find your inner child and kick its little ass

Get over it
Get over it
All this bitchin' and moanin' and pitchin' a fit
Get over it, get over it

Get over it
Get over it
It's gotta stop sometime, so why don't you quit
Get over it, get over it

Get over it

Quote:

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Originally Posted by youandwhosearmy

considering the health care industry does not really go hand in hand with quality of care

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Would government health care go hand in hand with quality of care?

Would it? Really?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Yoshi

I turn on the tube and what do I see
A whole lotta people cryin' "Don't blame me"
They point their crooked little fingers at everbody else
spend all their time feelin' sorry for themselves
Victim of this, victim of that
Your momma's too thin; your daddy's too fat

Get over it
Get over it
All this whinin' and cryin' and pitchin' a fit
Get over it, get over it

You say you haven't been the same since you had your little crash
But you might feel better if they gave you some cash
The more I think about it, Old Billy was right
Let's kill all the lawyers - kill 'em tonight
You don't want to work; you want to live like a king
But the big, bad world doesn't owe you a thing

Get over it
Get over it
If you don't want to play, then you might as well split
Get over it, get over it

It's like going to confession every time I hear you speak
You're makin' the most of your losin' streak
Some call it sick, but I call it weak

You drag it around like a ball and chain
You wallow in the guilt; you wallow in the pain
You wave it like a flag, you wear it like a crown
Got your mind in the gutter, bringin' everybody down
Complain about the present and blame it on the past
I'd like to find your inner child and kick its little ass

Get over it
Get over it
All this bitchin' and moanin' and pitchin' a fit
Get over it, get over it

Get over it
Get over it
It's gotta stop sometime, so why don't you quit
Get over it, get over it

Get over it

---

Right over your head man. Right over your head.

Yes Yoshi I see it now. Your quoting of a Don Henley song has made it clear to me what I've been missing.

You worked hard, and you got somewhere amazing in your life, only and only because you worked hard.

Good fortune had nothing to do with it. Being born to parents with decent jobs who cared about you, was entirely in your 12 point plan for success while you were in the womb. Why didn't I plan earlier. I mean look at these things you managed without any help whatsoever!

Not being taken out by a mack truck. Brilliant!
Or how about not getting cancer? Astounding.
Being free of psychological disease? Wonderful
How about being born in America? You planned that one out perfectly too.

No Yoshi all of your accomplishments in this life have been entirely your doing, and not one fortunate thing has gone into you winding up where you are now.

You are an inspiration to us all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rich

Would government health care go hand in hand with quality of care?

Would it? Really?

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Depends on how much debt I inherit.

Mind you all of this because I had the nerve to come in here and say it sucks that the middle class don't have affordable single payer non-work related health care options in this country, and it would be nice if you didn't have to choose between treating cancer and going into unrecoverable debt.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by youandwhosearmy

Mind you all of this because I had the nerve to come in here and say it sucks that the middle class don't have affordable single payer non-work related health care options in this country, and it would be nice if you didn't have to choose between treating cancer and going into unrecoverable debt.

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black and white much?