The Obama Presidency

No one, on the other side, is saying that Hard work gets you nowhere.

You can and will wind up eating a giant shit sandwich at some point in your life and of course you should still work hard to get out of it, or have done everything you could to plan for it.

But some people don't have that drive. Some people don't have that ability, or the knowledge, or (and yes this is important) the opportunity. This Republican idea that working hard opens all doors for all people, is fucking ridiculous. Life simply does not work that way at all. Like the idea that giving Rich people more money means they are more likely to share it, it is fantasy.

Favor, luck, and chance play a huge role in where you wind up in life. That's all there is to it. Hard work and motivation can only get you so far, and sometimes nowhere at all. I am not arguing not to work hard. I am arguing that you not think that everything in your life is up to you and controllable. It is a path to insanity for when you are finally blindsided by something that you never expected to happen, you will kill yourself with guilt and shame. Life is a nonsense rollercoaster, you set your personal goals, work hard towards them, prepare yourself for as much of the worst as you can, and try not to act shocked when the inevitable loop comes out of nowhere and throws you out of the coaster.

The truth is, I'm happy for Yoshi, I really am, and imma let him finish, but Biff was the most successful and happy human being to ever grace these boards, and he worked harder than all of us too...

Flap flap flap. Batwing vee-jays in the skyyyyyyyyyyyyy!

I'm trying to decide if you're trolling or not. What about that was, flap, flap, flap?

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Originally Posted by youandwhosearmy

No one, on the other side, is saying that Hard work gets you nowhere.

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I'll say it then. Hard work in some situations gets you jack shit. Hard work if not coupled with being clever AND intelligent (these really are two separate things) will get you almost no where.

There are a lot of shitty people out there that will let a had working man work himself to death to make a buck. And if you put a hard working man, a lazy smart man, and a so-so people person in group to be considered for promotion, the people person will get promoted first, then the smart lazy person, and finally the hard working man.

Hard work, if not coupled with other skills or personality traits, will leave you spinning your wheels.

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Originally Posted by youandwhosearmy

I'm trying to decide if you're trolling or not. What about that was, flap, flap, flap?

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Yeller is either bored at work, or Biff gave him a Ben for his account.

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Originally Posted by youandwhosearmy

The truth is, I'm happy for Yoshi, I really am, and imma let him finish, but Biff was the most successful and happy human being to ever grace these boards, and he worked harder than all of us too...

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Wow. That joke's older than Yoshi's dick.

Which is like three days younger than the rest of him. SCIENCE!!

http://www.the-nextlevel.com/board/a...chmentid=49398

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Originally Posted by Fe 26

anyone that really believes this, has probably never really worked a hard physical job, or lived in shit.

There actually is a level of work in this country that is pretty damn hard to pull yourself above. If you spend your days busting your ass in a factory or digging ditches, you don't feel like do anything for self improvement when you get home. This is double true if you have kids and have to play mom/dad when you get home.

But oh well, I guess fuck those people. They should have known better when they were 11. They should have tried a little bit harder on that math test.

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Guh, how polarizing and unfair.

I'm tired when I get home. Sometimes the last thing I want is to sit down and mess more with computers, drawings, et al when that's what I do all day. But that's on me - especially in freelance, where you have to hustle for every job like it's the first job you've ever had, and there is zero job security.

The people who don't have time because "they play mom/dad?" First, that trivalizes the SHIT out of being a parent, somehow claiming that success in life is based on how much money you make, and other things/people are merely inconveniences. Second, consider this thought: how come these people aren't planning their families in the first place?

My girlfriend talks a lot with head-in-the-clouds idealism in terms of marriage and children. I told her as a part of my own personal ideology, I refuse to marry or have children until I'm financially grounded to do each. Sometimes she thinks I think more of money than of love or family - the exact opposite. I'll be DAMNED before I allow my future family to suffer because of impulsive, half-assed decision making NOW, even if that means waiting to do something that I would find emotionally and spiritually rewarding.

So now, should we say "fuck people like me?" That because I'm willing to sacrifice material goods and save money, and doing without the long-term things (marriage, kids) in the now, that somehow it's also my mandated duty by The State to give unto those who aren't as thoughtful?

YAWA says as hard as you work, you can't control everything and that's true. But at the very least I think we should encourage people to control themselves and live within their means while remaining vigilant in the pursuit of being proactive toward the goals they have in life.

Hero is on a roll in this thread.

"I remember my defining moment as a Nashville songwriter was when I was literally digging a ditch, cramming this shovel in the ground and throwing that dirt over my shoulder . . . and thinking my dad had said that if I kept trying to make a living writing songs, I’d end up digging a ditch." - Robert Earl Keen

Assuming you don't know who Robert Earl Keen is, he then left Nashville, gave up on songwriting for the pros, and came back to Texas to tour the bars here, eventually gaining notoriety and making a damn good living for himself.

Now, I'm not saying everyone should try to be poets like Robert Earl Keen. But if your killing yourself and not getting anywhere, you need to backtrack and take different patch. It's tougher with a family, sure, but in the long run, you can get further ahead.

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Originally Posted by Hero

YAWA says as hard as you work, you can't control everything and that's true. But at the very least I think we should encourage people to control themselves and live within their means while remaining vigilant in the pursuit of being proactive toward the goals they have in life.

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You're marginalizing the need everyone has for healthcare based on work ethic. (everyone in that retarded debate is) It's an aside at best. I agree with everything you're saying about personal responsibility. But the issue here is should people have the right to walk in to a hospital and get the care they need if they are an American citizen? The answer is either "yes" or "no". There are details to be hemmed out, but it all boils down to that. There will always be burdens on society and you can't escape it. The purpose here is to help those in need that may get shuffled or lost in the riff-raff. And there seems to be a growing number of these. (including people who ARE paying for insurance and should be covered for procedures but are still denied service based on nothing more than greed - this is what started this whole trend in the first place)

You paying for general medical support is no different than you paying for a postal service. I'd even argue it's MORE important than a postal service (you have Fed Ex and UPS now with better infrastructure, anyway). I'm not usually a liberal minded person when it comes to money, but this is one issue I make an exception. There is so much money going around and so much wasted spending in government - this is one area that should be completely revamped (where necessary) for everyone between your borders.

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Originally Posted by Drewbacca

There is so much money going around and so much wasted spending in government

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that would we let them run one more thing? Nope.

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Originally Posted by Hero

Second, consider this thought: how come these people aren't planning their families in the first place?

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Unplanned pregnancies FTW yo!

And here we are back at personal responsibility.

Yoshi's like the Bill Cosby of TNL.

.

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Originally Posted by Drewbacca

You paying for general medical support is no different than you paying for a postal service. I'd even argue it's MORE important than a postal service (you have Fed Ex and UPS now with better infrastructure, anyway). I'm not usually a liberal minded person when it comes to money, but this is one issue I make an exception. There is so much money going around and so much wasted spending in government - this is one area that should be completely revamped (where necessary) for everyone between your borders.

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Oh no, I totally agree in terms of wasted spending and denial of services. That shit needs to stop. But when you look at the way federally controlled ANYTHING can find a way to waste money, why would your solution to an already-bloated industry be the introduction of a federally funded/controlled "option?"

(Oh, P.S.almost forgot to mention my friend. She's a single mom, young, and never went to college before having her kid. Now thanks to friends, family, and her own determination, she works full time, takes classes part time, and has people who help her watch her daughter. And why this drastic attitude change in her life, and persistence to find new direction on her own? Because she wants her daughter to have a good life. Please, try to marginalize that for me. Tell me all that effort means jack shit and she'll never get anywhere.)

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Originally Posted by Yoshi

And here we are back at personal responsibility.

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Um, there's medically reported cases of failure on like all forms of birth control except castration/hysterectomy. Unless you're going to take an abstinence route (which is fine unless you hypocrticially did it before you were entirely ready for kids) unplanned preggers can happen to the best of 'em.

There's been reported cases of dual failure of vasectomy and tubal ligation. If that ain't playing it safe I dunno what is. I sure hope you never had sex until you were loaded and ready for kids, if not I think the hypocrisy train is leaving the station soon.

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Originally Posted by Hero

Please, try to marginalize that for me. Tell me all that effort means jack shit and she'll never get anywhere.)

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I don't think any one here will attempt to marginalize this persons work. However there are no guarantees. It's good that she is trying really hard. It is still folly to assume that she will attain the high level of wealth it takes to establish true security. She's actually the kind of person a low cost government plan would help the most.

http://img.4chan.org/b/src/1254782232223.jpg

Lrn2AbortNoob /insensitive!

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Originally Posted by Bojack

I don't think any one here will attempt to marginalize this persons work. However there are no guarantees. It's good that she is trying really hard. It is still folly to assume that she will attain the high level of wealth it takes to establish true security. She's actually the kind of person a low cost government plan would help the most.

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On the flipside, I could have everything planned down to a tee and there are still No Guarantees. I think with her though, with that mindset and determination, her chances of improving her life standing, even if only by a bit, is waaaaaaay higher than staying in a rut. She may never be ultra-rich, but she will damn well be better off in the long run having the kind of attitude and behavior she has today.

I think it breaks down into whether or not a person is self-starter. Someone who either uses the rat race or circumvents it to make their world a little bit better, day by day. Everyone thinks a measure of success "from nothing" only matters if it's Star Wars level success. Luke went from a nothing to protector of mankind in his lifetime, so anything less is failure or mediocre. People look at real life heroes the same way - MLK is lauded for all his accomplishements as if that's all he had to do to achieve them. When in fact I bet you there were many days and years of struggle, all of which being very unmonumental or heroic. But those were necessary for the big, news-worthy accomplishments he made.

So if my friend had to take welfare or felt it was needed, as well as doing what she's doing, then I don't see that as harmful to her character as long as its not detrimental to her determination. But then we have two very important questions. Would it harm her motivation to be given assistance with little to no accountabilty? And moreover, is it the God-given (or Governement-ordained) duty of every wage-earner to help her out? Wouldn't it be more proactive (and more accountable) if someone who knows her personally were to give just a wee bit more than what 50, 100, 1000 people are required to do without consent or consideration?

Or take another example - my younger brother. The guy does NOT have it hard but makes excuses for constant failure and medicrity. We all help A LOT and ask for nothing in return. Due to this "no questions asked" approach, we watch him practically take advantage of our charity and feel entitled to it. He's a good guy at heart, and works hard when he WANTS to, but has zero drive to do the real hard work - the kind no one is thrilled to do but needs to to get ahead. Because of that I've slowly been holding himself and myself accountable to my own standards. As much as it breaks my heart, I know its best to not give him any more handouts or freebies. I feel that if my parents don't follow suit, he may never learn "the hard way" until that way becomes the ONLY way - and by then it may be too late.

SO!

From personal experience I'm hard-pressed to find a universal "one-size-fits-all" solution that is fair to people, while fostering an ever-improving push forward as the human-collective in terms of learning, working, progress, technology...it seems when you promise something for nothing, you'll likely get nothing in return. Which is fine in terms of one's own charity, but hardly serves to better a society at-large.

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Originally Posted by Hero

Guh, how polarizing and unfair.

I'm tired when I get home. Sometimes the last thing I want is to sit down and mess more with computers, drawings, et al when that's what I do all day. But that's on me - especially in freelance, where you have to hustle for every job like it's the first job you've ever had, and there is zero job security.

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have a hard time believing you're as tired as someone who works in a a building making couches all day with no AC. Or a guy that boxes table saws all day. Or someone that loads 18 wheeler trailers most of the day, with a pallet jack, or by hand.

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Originally Posted by Hero

The people who don't have time because "they play mom/dad?" First, that trivalizes the SHIT out of being a parent, somehow claiming that success in life is based on how much money you make, and other things/people are merely inconveniences. Second, consider this thought: how come these people aren't planning their families in the first place?

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alright, get off the soap box. You knew what I meant. Some people have a lot of shit to do when they get home. Like raise kids.

All I was saying is that when people get out of high school, and they work physical labor jobs, it is hard to do that all day and then come home and raise kids, AND do night school or learn a skill, or something else like that.

No reason to go on a tirade about me saying "play" instead of "be"

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Originally Posted by Hero

My girlfriend talks a lot with head-in-the-clouds idealism in terms of marriage and children. I told her as a part of my own personal ideology, I refuse to marry or have children until I'm financially grounded to do each. Sometimes she thinks I think more of money than of love or family - the exact opposite. I'll be DAMNED before I allow my future family to suffer because of impulsive, half-assed decision making NOW, even if that means waiting to do something that I would find emotionally and spiritually rewarding.

So now, should we say "fuck people like me?" That because I'm willing to sacrifice material goods and save money, and doing without the long-term things (marriage, kids) in the now, that somehow it's also my mandated duty by The State to give unto those who aren't as thoughtful?

YAWA says as hard as you work, you can't control everything and that's true. But at the very least I think we should encourage people to control themselves and live within their means while remaining vigilant in the pursuit of being proactive toward the goals they have in life.

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That is all more cultural than anything. You were probably either raised with those values OR were intelligent when you were younger and learned by counter example. You saw people fucking up as a young man and thought about how to do better.

People give the government WAY WAY WAY to much credit as a way to socially engineer people. The rest of the world has socialized medicine and those countries have not all lit on fire yet. Snotty English men are not setting at home eating candy and cake. Japanese salary men are not playing mine sweep all day either.

If a health care plan passes, hardworking families will still teach their kids to work hard in case of that rainy day. Shitty families will still not raise their kids, and encourage them to be little shit heads.

People need to get pasted the idea that new bills and laws are going to magically change the American people. Racism didn't go away when slavery was abolished. People didn't stop working when we first got income tax. And the whole country didn't quit their jobs when we started welfare.

As far as i don't think a public option is the answer, i'm not sure why people are going nuts about it elbowing out the competition with unfair practices (lower costs). No one who has a good insurance plan is going to want this plan that keeps getting compared to Medicaid. Medicaid isn't top of the line Indian doctors patting you on the butt for FR££, it's waiting in line with people whose grocery store you would avoid. (apologies to those people)

Medicaid and medicare are piles of fucking shit.

Horrid, monstrous turds that are sentient and walk around and fuck you in the ass and shit in your mouth while showing you pictures of how it has done the very same thing to your mother and father.

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Originally Posted by Yoshi

that would we let them run one more thing? Nope.

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They should regulate it better if nothing else. A general consensus of what medical business practices are acceptable and which aren't as a rule of thumb for potential cases. With lobbyist running rampant it's impossible, though. Our banks up here never felt the sub-prime mortgage crunch because our government MAKES banks do background checks. The idiotic sub prime mortgage investments are much harder to be duped in to (there is a market, it just never got out of control). The government doesn't force my bank's hand to reject a loan. It just notes if anything looks out of order or underhanded about the way things are sold. Everything has to be explained. That's not bad regulation and saved our asses in the recession. (which we are actually out of the woods on according to world forecasts)

I feel comfortable knowing my money isn't going to be locked in a vault for 10 years while some corporate stooge gets his shit in order.

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Originally Posted by Hero

Oh no, I totally agree in terms of wasted spending and denial of services. That shit needs to stop. But when you look at the way federally controlled ANYTHING can find a way to waste money, why would your solution to an already-bloated industry be the introduction of a federally funded/controlled "option?"

(Oh, P.S.almost forgot to mention my friend. She's a single mom, young, and never went to college before having her kid. Now thanks to friends, family, and her own determination, she works full time, takes classes part time, and has people who help her watch her daughter. And why this drastic attitude change in her life, and persistence to find new direction on her own? Because she wants her daughter to have a good life. Please, try to marginalize that for me. Tell me all that effort means jack shit and she'll never get anywhere.)

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I wasn't the one marginalizing anything.

Your friend is working to a better life, that's great. There are plenty of people in America with stories like your friend who go to the hospital when they need assistance and get bullshit in return because there are dollar signs on their sickness. Again, that's the problem. Transparent NPO's are clearly the healthcare solution America needs.

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Originally Posted by Bojack

I don't think any one here will attempt to marginalize this persons work. However there are no guarantees. It's good that she is trying really hard. It is still folly to assume that she will attain the high level of wealth it takes to establish true security. She's actually the kind of person a low cost government plan would help the most.

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Shit happens, and to good people. You can't leave them in the lurch so there has to be a solution. And maybe you or Yoshi or Hero have to do something about it. I just hate all these retarded get-nowhere arguments circling the issue.

The line that hard work and determination doesn't get you anywhere is a losers mentality.

Serious.

I moved back to NJ and I was pout of work. I moved into Philly and applied to multiple jobs. I was determined to get a job. So, I went to this one place and I nagged and nagged. I got the job and in fact I have two more lined up, because in case this one fell through I kept nagging these other two places. Its bullshit to think this doesn't happen. It does. I can give you more accounts on my behalf of hard work and determination getting myself a promotion. Example 2: Moving up from a Buffet Line Server at the Borgata to a Prep Cook and then to a Line cook for the Black Label/High Roller lounge.

Real Talk.

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As much as it breaks my heart, I know its best to not give him any more handouts or freebies. I feel that if my parents don't follow suit, he may never learn "the hard way" until that way becomes the ONLY way - and by then it may be too late.

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But we're not talking about giving him rent money, or trying to motivate someone to do something productive with their lives. We're talking about a basic need such as medication or medical assistance that could creep up on him. Maybe he gets hit by a car next week (knock on wood) or develops diabetes. Regardless of whether or not he's a slug should society turn their back on him? He's not a serial rapist or a child molester. He's your brother. I don't think it's too much to ask to support your fellow citizen when it comes to medical aid. Rent and other social programs can fuck off. But this is a much bigger item to do without.

That's why I'm not getting in to this idiotic workplace entitlement argument in the first place. It's dumb as shit and can only serve to devolve the thread in to a "I WORK HARDER THAN YOU!" bullshitfest. Working hard and pre-planning should have nothing to do with basic healthcare needs. I say basic. If someone breaks their leg give them a plaster cast and charge them minimal fee for crutches. If they want a fibreglass walking cast they can pay for it or use insurance. But the basic need should be covered.

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Originally Posted by Drewbacca

There are plenty of people in America with stories like your friend who go to the hospital when they need assistance and get bullshit in return. Again, that's the problem. Transparent NPO's are clearly the healthcare solution America needs.

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Then they are doing it wrong. If you don't have insurance and you are sick or hurt. You go to the emergency room. They will NOT refuse you.

I can tell you countless times my sister who does not have insurance has done this. I can also tell you the countless times at Cooper Hospital at Camden, NJ. Where welfare moms and homeless people have taken advantage of this fact.

Its a known fact, A KNOWN FACT. If you don't have health insurance, no medicare, or medicaid. Go to the ER. You will get the medicine and the medical care you need. Will you be billed? Nope. Who will get the bill ... you ask? The people who HAVE Health Insurance.

So you're paying for their healthcare anyway. You can do better with it. They shouldn't have to wait until something is an emergency to get it fixed. How do you wait until you are dying from lack of penicillin before getting diabetes medication? Which should be consistently dosed out to the body.

The overflowing ER's aren't a solution. They're a band aid.

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Who will get the bill ... you ask?

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You'll get the bill and you'll get sued if you don't pay it. Doesn't mean they'll get money from you, you just can't open a bank account and will have to live on the fringe of society.... forever. Just because they can't turn you away doesn't mean they won't charge you.

No Finchie. Most welfare cases put a fake name and fake address on the form. So, no they don't get billed. The people know the system and take advantage of it all the time.

Mother works in the health industry at Cooper Hospital. My sister did this for years, so she knows the work arounds.

And so you make sure you never carry any form of ID on you. I've had two previous roommates sued from playing the emergency room game.

(honestly, what the fuck are we arguing about now?) Drew's right about whatever it is that we're talking about, except the emergency room isn't a band-aid, though, it's a fruit roll-up smeared with feces, and you have to be hemorrhaging fluids for 8 hours before you can get that fruit roll-up slapped on the wound. The emergency room is absolutely the shittiest place you can ever go of your own will, barring National Wholesale Liquidators, or being one of those people who get arrested because there's nowhere else to go.
This Medicaid business is only a half step above. You have to make appointments at shitty times of the day to go wait in a room full of sick people so you can get healthcare from a guy who's almost as skilled as sub-par doctor that you could get treatment from $100/month insurance (or like $30 per month if you work for any large employee that doesn't suck.)

I'm not entirely sure where i'm going with that except trying to say that emergency rooms suck and that anyone who isn't paying is getting pretty awful treatment no matter what they're doing.

I was in the emergency room a whole lot last year. Sometimes I had to wait upwards of 12 hours to be seen because there were people using it as a fucking doctors office.

Yoshi... you foot the bill for emergency rooms already, how is the black guy's healthcare plan any worse?

It isn't. It's just a transparent way for Yoshi and those who believe this issue is as cut and dry as, "The government fucks everything up they touch," to hang their hats on.

This isn't about going to the emergency room for a broken leg. It is about affordable preventative care, which uninsured Americans, and fuck, some insured Americans, cannot get at a reasonable rate.

This is about not being afraid to get an x-ray, or an MRI, or a stroke risk assessment, or a cough checked out, etc... because you might wind up going broke from it. I do not see the fault in finding this an unreasonable way to run health care in this country. I'll admit even Advocate's ideas on this would be good, but I still don't think it would be enough.

Too much regulation sucks, not enough however, which is a point every conservative in this thread misses, is just as fucking bad. We argue about this with almost everything, but at the end of the day, it still seems to me that hard working middle class citizens living in America, having to worry about the bills left behind and how they could ever afford them should they survive, all while they are dying from something, is fucking embarrassing.

The Obama plan fixes none of this, so it's kind of a moot point anyway.

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Originally Posted by Advocate

The line that hard work and determination doesn't get you anywhere is a losers mentality.

Serious.

I moved back to NJ and I was pout of work. I moved into Philly and applied to multiple jobs. I was determined to get a job. So, I went to this one place and I nagged and nagged. I got the job and in fact I have two more lined up, because in case this one fell through I kept nagging these other two places. Its bullshit to think this doesn't happen. It does. I can give you more accounts on my behalf of hard work and determination getting myself a promotion. Example 2: Moving up from a Buffet Line Server at the Borgata to a Prep Cook and then to a Line cook for the Black Label/High Roller lounge.

Real Talk.

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so, hows that getting laid thing working out for you?

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Originally Posted by youandwhosearmy

Too much regulation sucks, not enough however, which is a point every conservative in this thread misses, is just as fucking bad.

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I wonder if people argued this much when they started the FDA. Were Yoshi's running around with top hats talking about people who want to eat good food should work hard so they can live in the nice part of town and get the good cuts of meat?

Or how about child labor laws? I wonder if the same people said that families should work hard so their kids don't have to work?

There are a lot of men talking like women in this thread.

and a lot of women pretending to be men as well.

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Originally Posted by Fe 26

so, hows that getting laid thing working out for you?

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Even though this should be in the Singles Warpact thread.

Its going VERY well, thanks for asking.

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Originally Posted by youandwhosearmy

I'll admit even Advocate's ideas on this would be good, but I still don't think it would be enough.

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I know what I proposed would not be enough. Not addressing it years ago when it was apparent that it could be a problem (see: 1969). You have to make baby steps, cause if you do what Obama is proposing. The cost to the taxpayer is extremely high and thats something a lot of people do not want right now. And if anyone thinks that just by cutting out waste will cover the cost. I have a bridge too sell you. You need to raise taxes. And cutting Medicare by 5 million is a bad idea, since more and more of our families are retiring or entering the age of eligibility (see: 60 years old). It stands to reason if more are becoming eligible. You need to INCREASE cost. And since the longer this goes on Medicare will be bankrupt in 5 years (not some number I came up with either. Its fact.). So, when I say Tort Reform, Prescription drug company pricing regulation, and health insurance premium reform. Will it be the end all? No. But this will lower costs and put SOME money back in your pocket. And it will delay a health care crisis, by a few years and give us time to find a solution everyone can agree on.

OMG http://www.mcnaughtonart.com/artwork...tpiece_id=353#

No Harry Truman? He's more important than that hippie holding that sheet of music. What a loser. I hate that professor between Tim Allen and John McCain. He is so smug. I am also glad that they put the pregnant teenager on the "Bad Guy" side.

I agree with Yoshi that Obama hasn't accomplished anything yet and am starting to worry about his value as an actual leader. When it comes to communicating with other countries I think he's on the right path, the path that I know Yoshi doesn't agree with but whatever that's difference of opinion.

I hadn't posted here because I've been thinking a lot about it, and pushing for things to get done honestly isn't the same thing as getting it done.

Everyone always forgets the Credit Card Accountability and Disclosure Act, the Children's Health Insurance Act, and getting the FDA in on regulating tobacco.
Several presidents have tried to pass some kind of healthcare act, going all the way back to Truman in the 40's. It's not as easy as something like No Child Left Behind, where saying no would just make you look like a jerk. An FDR-caliber takeover of the banks and dropping a bomb on Hiroshima are great and all, but they're not going to happen every first year in office.


That said, Obama snubbed the Dalai Lama 'cause China doesn't kin to that. THAT AIN'T COOL, OBAMA.

No child left behind sucks though. Who the fuck would be proud of that?

I want to see sex education reform, I don't know what was wrong with the bill before but Abstinence only is stupid and every supporter of it is stupid.

It is beyond stupid in MS. They don't even try to be factual with it. The woman that talked to us in HS told us that each person you sleep with gets a peice of your soul. And that sleeping with someone is like sleeping with everyone they've slept with. So if you sleep with a girl, you're actually sleeping with a lot of dudes.

After that she handed out papers so we could sign them and send off for "promise" cards. A promise card being, a signed agreement that you will wait till marriage to have sex.

I shit you not.

HOLD EVERYTHING

Did Advocate get laid?

He is implying he did, or is with someone that soon will.

Seeing how he is not in jail, nor has he posted an epic page long post about how wonderful vagina is, and how right razor was in a certain thread, I'm going to go with the second.

edit: or he turned gay

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Originally Posted by Fe 26

He is implying he did, or is with someone that soon will.

Seeing how he is not in jail, nor has he posted an epic page long post about how wonderful vagina is, and how right razor was in a certain thread, I'm going to go with the second.

edit: or he turned gay

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Originally Posted by Fe 26

I'm an idiot

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Why must I live vicariously through TNL. Oh wait its ButtFECheeks26 ....

buttplant is the first internet persona to put his IQ in his username

...did you just make a joke that was actually funny? Holy shit. Nice.

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Originally Posted by Joust Williams

buttplant is the first internet persona to put his IQ in his username

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He also misspelled buttplant.

If you guys like that one, you'll love these!

Q: How many NeoGeos does it take to screw in a light bulb?
A: None! They get the wienies to do it for them!

Q: Why did the Nintendo DS cross the road?
A: Because it wanted to get away from all of the awful games for itself!

Q: What did Obama say to the dying illegal immigrant lesbian Mexican teenager who was dying from a botched abortion that could have been prevented if there wasn't such strict gun control because she would have been shot while crossing the border?
A: MORTAL KOMBAAAAAAAAAAAAT!

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Originally Posted by Josh

Yoshi... you foot the bill for emergency rooms already, how is the black guy's healthcare plan any worse?

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Did I ask a question that Yoshi couldn't answer so he fled the thread instead?

his answer is kill them

Nah, this thread just goes to shit after a day or so every time it's bumped, so I missed your post.

The answer is as simple as the devil you know being better than the devil you don't. Since the damn thing changes every three and a half seconds, all I know for sure about the proposed plan is that there is going to be some gaping hole in it that makes us worse off than where we started.

edit: And kill whoever "them" is. Come to think of it, I can't reasonably ever get into an abortion argument on TNL again. If the other side posts a picture of Buttplant, I am fucked. They might even be able to get me to agree to public funding.

And if you guys liked that one, you'll love this one!

Q: How do you distract everyone from something you said that doesn't make any sense?
A: Your mom!

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Originally Posted by Josh

Did I ask a question that Yoshi couldn't answer so he fled the thread instead?

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The problem is this, Josh.

Right now we pay for Emergency Room visits when Shaniqua or Billy Bob goes in to see the Physician and they don't have health insurance.

Obama's HR3200 does NOT address it. So, there's no punishment for the ones who exploit the flaw. His bill also "taxes" people who decide to not sign up for healthcare. FYI: The bill in Congress does not differentiate between those who already have healthcare through a company and those who do not. Basically, the bill as it is written right now ... if you have Healthcare through your job. And you decline the Public Option. YOU CAN BE TAXED upwards of 8% via Income Tax. Businesses will also be taxed if they do not provide their employees (part time and full time) the public option. Their tax will be on the scale of 17-25% (depending on the average age of the employees and how many are employed.).

So what?

Now:

1, You're being charged for unpaid ER visits.

Post-HR 3200:

1. You're being charged for unpaid ER visits.
2. Now you'll also be taxed.
3. More Money will be taken out of your paycheck.
4. Cost of Living will go up. More money taken out of a company means they have to recoup the money someway.

I don't get a paycheck. I work for cash. win/win.

JOSH IS OFF THE GRID!!!

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Originally Posted by Doc Holliday

JOSH IS OFF THE GRID!!!

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http://www.the-nextlevel.com/board/a...1&d=1254939003

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Right now we pay for Emergency Room visits when Shaniqua or Billy Bob goes in to see the Physician and they don't have health insurance.

Obama's HR3200 does NOT address it. So, there's no punishment for the ones who exploit the flaw.

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You're only accounting for people who are going to play the system no matter what. If they get caught, they're fucked, just like people who don't pay tickets, don't carry auto insurance, drive without plates.
This would provide an option for people who don't want to live in the cracks.

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Basically, the bill as it is written right now ... if you have Healthcare through your job. And you decline the Public Option. YOU CAN BE TAXED upwards of 8% via Income Tax.

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Bull fucking shit. This isn't an accurate representation. Show me your source.
Even if it is, no idiot is going to let that one pass.
What you could argue is that some people will make just enough so they can't afford insurance for a family of 4, but they make too much to qualify for assistance. Even so, if the gov't plan aims to be cheaper than what's already out there, there are some cheap fucking plans, and a family of 4 that's pulling both ends probably needs to rethink their priorities.

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Businesses will also be taxed if they do not provide their employees (part time and full time) the public option. Their tax will be on the scale of 17-25% (depending on the average age of the employees and how many are employed.)

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This applies to businesses with payrolls over $250,000/year. Any company with that many employees (8 if they're right at $250K and get paid more than $shit/hour) provides an insurance option except the really shitty ones that need to run either with less employees or stop being stingy assholes.

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1. You're being charged for unpaid ER visits.
2. Now you'll also be taxed.
3. More Money will be taken out of your paycheck.
4. Cost of Living will go up. More money taken out of a company means they have to recoup the money someway.

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You'll be taxed if

1. You don't have any insurance whatsoever.

This would (hypothetically) mean that less people use the ER as free care, meaning you'll be charged less for that.

More money will be taken out of your paycheck if you work for a shit company anyway, and cost of living wouldn't go up except for people who are living off products from US-based sweat shops, and China ate up most of those. Even fucking Einstein's Bagels provided health insurance, and that's the single shittiest company i've ever worked for.

Worrying about there being enough doctors to cover an extra 44,000,000 people is legitimate. But they're using the emergency rooms anyway!

All I want to know is if we get new health care, will my Dad get paid? Cause right now, medicare and medicaid like to lose up to $15K in claims a month to get out of paying him. And will people with no insurance now be covered, so the government will now pay him instead of those people skipping town and never sending him the check.

If the gov will actually pay everyone, 100% of the time, and for everyone that needs it, the rest of you can eat dick.

If it is going to become super medicare/medicaid for everyone, and my Dad is still getting fucked out of $15k+ a month, Oboma can suck on the hardest part of my left nut.

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Originally Posted by Finch

Bull fucking shit. This isn't an accurate representation. Show me your source.

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http://www.classicalideals.com/HR3200.htm

The actual bill that's been on the net for months now.

http://energycommerce.house.gov/Pres...0714/aahca.pdf

In that case, yes, you can be taxed, but only if you're using stupid shit insurance with $10,000 deductibles and 50/50 co-pay that shouldn't be around in the first place. This should actually force the idiot health care plans to shape up or ship out.
Plus, i don't see where "if your healthcare sucks, you'll have to change it" equals "the government will pressure your business to use government health care, because the government exists for the sole purpose of making everyone's lives miserable, except those who are worthless already, in which case, yes, we'll give them bottom level health care which won't be any better than their current practice of ripping off emergency rooms."

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Originally Posted by Yoshi

The answer is as simple as the devil you know being better than the devil you don't. Since the damn thing changes every three and a half seconds, all I know for sure about the proposed plan is that there is going to be some gaping hole in it that makes us worse off than where we started.

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I highly doubt we can get much worse off than we are already. This is the main reason why I don't understand how there is so much resistance to this shit. The system we have now is TRULY fucked and is a horrible mess for everyone involved, though clearly a lot of people don't even realize how shitty it currently is. It may not appear so bad to the people who get reasonable coverage or whatever, whose lives it's not affecting, but it's affecting the WHOLE ECONOMY OF THE NATION in horrible ways.


I'm glad the bill hasn't gone through yet, there's a lot of shit wrong with it, but I hope to god they fix up a good bill and get it passed through in the next two years.

Just so you know, I have full health coverage, dental and medical and eye, at an incredibly reasonable rate. I pay around 50 dollars a month. Eat it.

Even my flu shot was free.

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Originally Posted by Cowutopia

I highly doubt we can get much worse off than we are already. This is the main reason why I don't understand how there is so much resistance to this shit.

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Jim DeMint, Obama's Waterloo, cutting off one's nose, spiting one's face.

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Originally Posted by Fe 26

People need to get pasted the idea that new bills and laws are going to magically change the American people. Racism didn't go away when slavery was abolished. People didn't stop working when we first got income tax. And the whole country didn't quit their jobs when we started welfare.

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I understand this, but when you have a society AND government that encourages and fosters a sense of self-entitlement, then that will change a populace over time.

I remember reading a few years back how French youth damn near broke into riots when their government wanted to pass a new law that would allow businesses to fire employees within the first 30 days if that employee wasn't working out. Partially because as it had been, businesses were leaving France and setting up shop where labor laws weren't so one-sided in favor of the employee regardless of his or her performance. So while I don't think the French don't work and sit at home all day eatting baggettes (sp?), among the young it seems that certain compensations for work are rights, not rewards based on quality of work.

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Originally Posted by Hero

I understand this, but when you have a society that encourages and fosters a sense of self-entitlement, then that will change a populace over time.

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fixed

the government is not a magical robot. It is a product of the society.

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Originally Posted by Drewbacca

They should regulate it better if nothing else. A general consensus of what medical business practices are acceptable and which aren't as a rule of thumb for potential cases. With lobbyist running rampant it's impossible, though. Our banks up here never felt the sub-prime mortgage crunch because our government MAKES banks do background checks. The idiotic sub prime mortgage investments are much harder to be duped in to (there is a market, it just never got out of control).

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Um, our government actually helped in the "duping" - back in the 90s Clinton signed a bill requiring to an extent that banks do some financial voodoo to allow mortgages for low-income families. The claim was that banks shutting out those who weren't reasonably qualified for a loan meant shutting out a lot of minorities and therefore racist. I'm not claiming this legislation was the sole cause of our current woes (far from it), but it is an example of government doing what it feels to be for the common good without consideration to the real logistics that occur when it plays out.

It's easy enough to claim lobbyists run government when it bolsters your arguement, but the fact is lobbyists exist on both sides of the political spectrum. They all share the common theme of applying pressure to government to serve their own interest (regardless of the short or long term costs to others). So the environmentalists blame the big corporate lobby for pollution; businesses blame the environmental lobby for choking commerce and economic prosperity. It's all true to varying degrees but the only lobbies that seem righteous are those who are propagating what you the individual already believe in the first place. Everyone else is just a liar and ner-do-weller, preying upon the people's representation to line their own pockets.

Although I'd argue they're all fiends to differing degrees, crafted by our own apathy. When we reliquish our voices to any group or organization to speak for us, it dillutes the message or worse - those in control of said groups use the clout to push their own agenda in the guise of a larger concern. If we believe all people have the potential to be corrupted, why do we believe an organization made of lots of these same potential corruptables can somehow remain pure?

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Originally Posted by Fe 26

fixed

the government is not a magical robot. It is a product of the society.

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Exactly - which is why no matter the ills of humanity, it's silly to think a government can fix them. The shit people will raise the shit kids, as you said. So then the goal shouldn't be legislated change forced from the top down - we should be examining ourselves, striving to be better in all our beliefs and pursuits, passively inspire those around us, and actively participate and help those within the scope of our lives..

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Originally Posted by Thief Silver

When it comes to communicating with other countries I think he's on the right path, the path that I know Yoshi doesn't agree with but whatever that's difference of opinion.

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I dunno - while I'm all for him building healthy relations with foreign countries, he doesn't approach it the way I'd think smart for our country's leader. He prostrates us as the wrongdoers in speeches, that we need to make ourselves look lesser than those we wanna be friends with. Call it distilled reasoning, but I never saw this work in my life (devaluing oneself so the potential buddy feels more important, thus allowing you to tag along for the ride). The other problem I have is he makes consessions to other countries at our own expense and sees nothing in return. Like when he signed the closing of Guantanimo Bay, thinking the gesture of goodwill will get other countries to help us in continuing to detain the prisoners. And we got...like, the equivalent of the middle finger. And now our own senators and governors shy away from putting them in their states. Imagine that.

He's a great speaker when he already has it written, planned, and on prompter. He's charismatic and yeah, the European opinion seems to be that they dig on him. But in his measures he's demonstrated that countries watch out for their own asses. Self-interest in the form of country-first politics means they'll ostracize him for anything that boldens the US or dimishes them in the world forum. All the while, they'll take whatever measures needed to make sure their homes are never diminished at the cost of a foreign interest.

I mean shit, how familiar does the phrase "the US are bullies" sound? Meanwhile how often do countries all over push others around? The only difference is they do so in proportion with how much the other side will tolerate. With the US this level has always been unusually high - not because they ever loved us, but because we provide a substantial amount of aid and have also been the biggest threat to prod. If any other country gets the same power and leverage we've had, you bet your ass they'll do the same. I mean hell, no one is gonna mess with China anytime soon and not because they agree with their human rights violations - nor will the democratic nations push them out of socialism. And there's no other reason other than they're a big nation, they own a majority of the world's debt, and they manufacture pretty much everything in the world. So they get to continue to be assholes to their own people and we give them Olympics and talk about how great and industrialized they are, and how they're the prime example of how socialism is just so gosh-darn great.

I can't rep you enough Hero.

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And we got...like, the equivalent of the middle finger. And now our own senators and governors shy away from putting them in their states.

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That's because they're dumb motherfuckers trying to pretend like it matters to their people. It's bullshit posturing and the most ludicrous act of cowardice done by the states. They all have significantly deadlier people on their premises and they won't take on bombers who are now left to die by their own organization? FUcking ingrateful bastards.

And it's no longer about how America wronged the world, they had but now it's over, hes' being a bit more hardline, telling the world yeah we'll do shit but stop waiting for us to do it for you, and isn't letting up on Iran or even the Afghanistan president. He was a bit too apologetic at first but it worked to get us back into a trusted position and now he's moving with that.

Nobel Peace Prize? :o Wowzers.

It doesn't surprise me. The international community loves that he runs around apologizing and kissing ass while making his own country look ridiculous. It's purely an anti-US political statement.

Apparently liberals are more interested in rhetoric than action outside the US too.

edit: Here you go. This is part of the committee's reasoning: "His diplomacy is founded in the concept that those who are to lead the world must do so on the basis of values and attitudes that are shared by the majority of the world's population." So they are praising him for representing India and China better than the people who made the mistake of electing him.

This statement sums it up though: "The Nobel committee's surprise choice may bring criticism that the president's popular status internationally -- particularly relative to former President George W. Bush -- overshadowed his lack of accomplishments this early in his presidency."

You're so full of shit.

I'm sure you can rattle off all of the accomplishments that make him worthy of even being nominated for this award after 37 weeks in office.

But go review your flash cards on how to spell "deaf" first.

You all know he was picked to be a nominee within the first two weeks of office.

It's hardly "purely an anti-US political statement."

Definitely more of a potential-for-peace prize... which is kind of bullshit anyways.
But get the hell out of here, calling it a anti-US statement.

"His diplomacy is founded in the concept that those who are to lead the world must do so on the basis of values and attitudes that are shared by the majority of the world's population."

That is an anti-US statement. The President should have exactly one interest in mind: ours. If that aligns with our allies, great. If it doesn't align with Russia, france, Germany, Italy, and the Middle East? Even better.

Because getting along with others couldn't possibly be in our best interest?

Think of it this way. The rest of the world will become increasingly more comfortable with us exerting our will if we make nice. At least in theory, we would get what we want, and they won't feel pushed around by America the bully.

Still, I think this award is, at the very least, incredibly premature. I mean, aside from overcoming generations of race hate he hasn't accomplished anything concrete. I'm not saying he will never accomplish anything or calling him a failure outright, but I mean jesus christ, hold off a few years on the Nobel Prizes.

This is terrible timing, this will do nothing but stir up a pointless shit storm.

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Originally Posted by FirstBlood

Because getting along with others couldn't possibly be in our best interest?

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How often to you change your ideals just to make a new friend?

I wonder what Obama will do with his one million dollar prize money.

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Originally Posted by YellerDog

I wonder what Obama will do with his one million dollar prize money.

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Raise taxes!

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Originally Posted by YellerDog

I wonder what Obama will do with his one million dollar prize money.

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Probably repay the machine that got him elected with no experience.

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How often to you change your ideals just to make a new friend?

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I dunno, but the US does that a lot. Did you know that blacks are considered people now? And that we actually like Britain sometimes? We don't get our ideals from Joseph McCarthy anyway!

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I wonder what Obama will do with his one million dollar prize money.

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He'll give people Obama Money from his stash, i imagine.

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Originally Posted by Finch

Did you know that blacks are considered people now? And that we actually like Britain sometimes?

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Did you hear that?! I think that's the sound of Yoshi having a heart attack!

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Originally Posted by Mr-K

Think of it this way. The rest of the world will become increasingly more comfortable with us exerting our will if we make nice. At least in theory, we would get what we want, and they won't feel pushed around by America the bully.

Still, I think this award is, at the very least, incredibly premature. I mean, aside from overcoming generations of race hate he hasn't accomplished anything concrete. I'm not saying he will never accomplish anything or calling him a failure outright, but I mean jesus christ, hold off a few years on the Nobel Prizes.

This is terrible timing, this will do nothing but stir up a pointless shit storm.

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Pretty much this. I get they're pretty sick of Bush's bullshit, his insane pick for a UN representative and policies. Great... but Obama has barely been here, done nothing other than govern competently (more or less, being generous here), hasn't taken any huge initiative to solve the major human rights problems aside from promising to do many things us lefties love.

He hasn't delivered on any of his big promises like addressing Don't Ask Don't Tell, the Israel/Palestine issue, ended the wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, intervened in Dalfur, championing gay rights here and abroad, closed gitmo/addressed the detainee problem, nor been the champion of human rights that would put him in line with what we consider a "good" Nobel Prize winner.

What Obama has been by his behavior is a center rightish corporatist president who is addressing health care, albeit better than Clinton, but nothing has materialized yet. The Nobel Prize shouldn't be merely because of personal achievement like a black man overcoming this nation's racial history and getting elected to its highest office. If that was so, where's Justice Thomas' Nobel Prize? (yeah weak analogy but still)

Also: some people and Obama are pointing out that they're doing this as, "A call to action" to encourage him to get off his ass. Is this how we're rolling now? Obama should reject the prize and say, "Give it to someone who has properly earned this," I'd have massive respect for that.

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Originally Posted by Advocate

You all know he was picked to be a nominee within the first two weeks of office.

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This bears repeating.

Also, Al Gore got one. For his "contributions" to helping the environment. Including making a movie that by documentary standards, broke a lot of rules to stilt statistics and research to bolster your predetermined message. And owning the same company he uses to pay his carbon "sin" taxes. He pays himself for jetsetting all over the world and owning a big ass mansion which eats as much power in a month that 10,000+ homes do in a year.

You know, that Nobel Peace Prize.

It's pretty irrelevant to me - Obama getting this doesn't speak at all of his actions, just how the Prize committee viewed them...two weeks into his presidency.

The Nobel committee did an awesome job of topping the time they gave the award to Al Gore over a woman that saved thousands from the holocaust.

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Originally Posted by Thief Silver

He was a bit too apologetic at first but it worked to get us back into a trusted position and now he's moving with that.

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How did it work? Other than his public opinion abroad being favorable, how has that directly affected world leaders to trust him? How is he "moving" with that too?

From the latest, when he and the leaders of UK/France stood against Iran's "newly" discovered nuclear base, he seemed the weakest in verbal condemnation of the action. Not to mention that Russia and China won't "trust" him to push sanctions on Iran as wanted. They're middling around with it, acting non-commital, and may ultimately move to block UN sanctions. Even though you say Obama is trusted and leveraging that trust to get shit done.

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Originally Posted by SpoDaddy

The Nobel committee did an awesome job of topping the time they gave the award to Al Gore over a woman that saved thousands from the holocaust.

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Would you say they jumped the shark that year?

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Originally Posted by Yoshi

How often to you change your ideals just to make a new friend?

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If that new friend is a country that can economically fuck you one should be friends with them. Ideals need to be changed based on cicurmstance. Japan had a "no surrender" ideal until some big ass bombs changed their minds.

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Originally Posted by Yoshi

Probably repay the machine that got him elected with no experience.

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The only people on Earth who can say they have requisite experience being president are those that have been president. It's bullshit to suggest that any non ex-president has actual experience being the US Pres, which is the actual experience needed. There's no Presidential Internship Practicum even. No, nothing else in government actually counts as the stakes are never as high as being President. Might as well say that some one who's been through boot camp automatcially qualifies as a top rank soldier which we both know is not the case.