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I've written up a new article discussing aspect ratios and scanlines and other CRT v LCD/plasma things. I'd appreciate any feedback, as I do worry that it's not entirely coherent. Writing late at night after a long week of work tends to make my internal logic a little shaky. =D
It is here, just one click away!
It includes diagrams, like this one!
http://nfgworld.com/grafx/games/ASPECT-stretching.png
Good read but it seems a bit terse. I would appreciate more detail in general.
Maybe you can expand on it to discuss other things which developers did to take advantage of the intended display format, like dithering on games which is intended to be blurred when playing the game on a composite connection.
I'm thinking to add some more photos of some CRT and LCD screens. Sucks my XRGB power supply is dead at the moment, that'd have helped quite a lot. =/Quote:
Originally Posted by dog$
That gets dangerously close to personal opinion and mind-reading, doesn't it? I mean, I love my crystal clear pixels and the dithering revealed by a good RGB monitor. I can't be sure that it reveals anything the designers were trying to hide.Quote:
Originally Posted by dog$
I mean, they were designing games for the only TVs or monitors available to 99% of their customers, right? They weren't making a conscious choice to utilize the blur inherent in composite video, they were working with the only way to smooth a colour change with a limited palette.
Thinking about it for a moment, if they were really using the crap-factor of a composite display, why would they bother dithering at all? The TV would do it for them. =)
Someone posted some pictures of Saturn Nights on here a while ago comparing how the game looks on composite compared to S-video or something, making a point to compare how the blending looked worse as the video type improved.
I think I remember reading something similar about Final Fantasy 8.
I was just trying to think of other related topics to go with the general theme of your piece.
I'd be interested in seeing that thread.
You're right, I'm not saying you're not, it's just that there aren't as many facts in a discussion like that. You really need to talk to the designers in question to get any real answers.
This is what I was thinking of.
You should discuss modern solutions to these issues more. Some of the discussions of things like hard scaling and scanlines seem a bit antiquated in light of modern screen fitting and monitor emulation techniques. By combining overlays, prescaling, and filtration in the right order, you can create something that looks pretty nice at any resolution.
For example, here's a raw shot of STUN Runner, a game that uses a wierd resolution (512x240) and then a screenshot of it running in MAME. And another without the scanline stuff. You can see that there is neither blurring nor distortion, and the scanlines line up per-pixel as they would on the real thing, regardless of the fact that my screen resolution isn't proportional to the original resolution (view screenshots full size or you'll get some distortion from the browser's scaling, of course).
The best example of this is in Sega Genesis games. Due to the limited palette a lot of games used the blending that is a natural byproduct of composite displays to simulate blending or more colors. Here's the quintessential example: Duke Nukem 3D. The first shot uses blargg's NTSC filter to simulate what the composite signal looks like and the second shot shows the console's raw/perfect output.Quote:
Originally Posted by dog$
The simple answer is that the signal bleeds between pixels such that each pixel is 50/50 with the one left of it. So if you alternate between two colors (pixel mesh or vertical stripes) you'll get a cheap blending effect at the expense of some detail. S-Video and higher are a sharper signal, so it doesn't do that.
I remember thinking THAT GUY was outright wrong about a lot of things, but now I'm sitting around with two RGB monitors as my preferred way to play low res games. :/
THAT GUY was wrong by thinking interlaced black lines somehow made his screenshots more accurate. It was a cheap, shitty effect that made his shots dark and painful to look at.
A lot of people prefer real low-res modes and monitors. That's a whole different issue.
Frogacuda nails it in one. THAT GUY wasn't wrong to think scanlines were cool n all, but he couldn't tolerate the idea that other methods weren't the spew of satan himself.
When I really want to game, I play on one of my CRTs. When I'm doing analysis, ripping sprites, mucking about or emulating 30 shmups on an idle night at home, I'll use the LCD. The screenshots I abuse you with will include a random mix of all kinds of shitty methods, including the dropshadow everyone loves so much. ;)
Somtimes I even do things like this, screenshot manipulation designed to make THAT GUY apoplectic:
If you want to see a really awful use of authentic screenshots, check out the appallingly bad Atari Lynx screenshots in my book. The publisher couldn't manage to replace them with the good ones I sent before going to print, and they look like serious ass.
You have a book? What's it called?
After writing my Mario Sprite History article, Rotovision contacted me about writing one of a trilogy of game art books. The other two were canceled and then my editor stopped talking to me, but in the end they released a book that's not quite entirely execrable.
Details here...
Interesting. I love pixel art, I might have to check that out when I have a few bucks to blow.
Are those two latter resolutions displaying the game at 4:3? The screenshots are at 1280x1024 but I can't tell if the black bars on the top and bottom are enough to return the game to its proper aspect ratio.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogacuda
It's 4:3. The black bars are because I set the aspect ratio to 4:3 instead of fullscreen, and 1280x1024 isn't a proper 4:3 resolution (which would be 1280x960). Mistake on my part.
I swear by low res RGB. A handful of years ago I discovered it and can't go back. Genny looks insane in RGB as does Saturn, PS2, and DC. Even current gen isn't too bad at all in 15khz RGB. PS3 SCART mode looks great.
Great read. You might want to, in the scanlines section, talk a little about 240p and what systems support it. I know there is an article about it out there, but it would tie in nicely.
You guys said his name more than 3 times, what the fuck is wrong with you.
I didn't notice the Chux edits and just thought Tain was being clever.
Lol, me too.
http://techcrunch.com/2011/04/28/slg...scanline-look/
Not sure where else to put this.
ur butt
Dude is like Beetlejuice. Watch it.
I've got 2 of these (rev 1 and 2) and they work great. Adding scanlines to low res games that output at VGA (e.g. many X68000/PC98/FM Towns/PC games) makes them look proper. Also, arcade stuff like NAOMI and ATOMISWAVE running in 31 kHz with the SLG-3000 scanlines look better than when the hardware is forced to output in 15 kHz.Quote:
Originally Posted by YellerDog
Who the hell is THAT GUY?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshi
That Yoshi image is beautiful and heya NGM long fucking time no see dude! P.S. I actually play my older generation console games on a Commodore 1701 monitor. It just looks fucking better on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by NEOGEOman
Scanlines are cool. It's not like a B&W movie colorized. The old games look terrible without the scanlines. Glad to hear that people recognize this, even if they dislike THAT GUY.
Scanlines on an HDTV look wrong to me. On a CRT? Trolling aside, totally necessary.
This is another thread where I get to point out that I'm selling an old Sony RGB monitor (the one that shipped with the Apple IIGS)
True, but it's a better compromise than not having scanlines if a HDTV is all you have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh
I'll one again mention i'd take that Sony monitor if it wouldn't cost like $900 to ship.
I think my parents still have ours in their basement. I need to snag that the next time I am up there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh
It's, like, 13"Quote:
Originally Posted by GohanX
Where do you live again?
It looks a lot better than it should. Even with a composite input. An RGB connection looks proper... just need to find someone to build you a cable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshi
Do they still have their Apple IIGS? I still have mine. Woz edition, yo.
Oh 13", meh, I could just use my c64 monitor. I was thinking it was one of those 25" PVMs.
Yeah, in the original boxes no less. I don't recall if it's the Woz edition.Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh
I left that on the street when I moved.Quote:
Originally Posted by GohanX
The commodore amiga 1084s monitors are great also..... And in Stereo!!!!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by GohanX
Thug niggas roll with external speakers.
It's all about that stereo Dolby System with the giant black knob yo..