SWEET JESUS
Printable View
SWEET JESUS
midi midi midi
I always thought MIDI sounded like shit.
it does
Yeah, video game music was just terrible before CD-ROM media came around.
CD-ROM can play midi music too though huh.
I can't believe there is a whole thread on this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hubbitron
Red book audio! Sure it's audio, but can you classify it as a red book?
My favorite MIDI song is the DuckTales moon level music.
I like the midi part of Van Halen's Jump.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joust Williams
I hope you all choke on dicks and die a hundred deaths.
MIDI can control tens of thousands of parameters through "sys-ex" commands. It's been in the standard since the beginning. If your MIDI hardware has a dexterous robotic hand, you could send a MIDI command to have it jerk you off. It's all up to the hardware manufacturer as far as what and how many commands are understood. You just listed "general midi" commands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogacuda
Single-instrument MIDI patches can reach gigabytes in size these days. In that case, yes, all of that subtle crap is there.Quote:
and there are many more subtleties to many instruments. For drums, keyboard instruments, etc it tends to be fine, but it can't really convey the subtle changes in bowing speed and pressure on a violin unless you sit there and record a dozen different violin sample banks,
Loading 2 gigabytes of samples into your sampling hardware VS tracking down a professional acoustically-treated recording space and the mics, preamps, and eqs to go with it... Let alone knowing how to set and position it all... Trust me, the humongormous MIDI patch is still simpler by orders of magnitude.Quote:
and at that point it's not really "simple," and it's not saving you time.
MIDI files themselves are tiny. Without exception. Like Josh said, it contains no music; just instructions to perform music. It all depends on how big your sample tables are. Like I said above, those sample tables could be gigabytes in size, in which case MIDI becomes impractical to fit on a game disc (not to mention paying the hundreds of dollars in licensing fees for each sample if you did put it on the game disc) so you record it as a wav or MP3 or whatever and put that on the game disc. Bigger than the MIDI data alone, but much smaller than the MIDI data plus sample tables. That is what the PC is.Quote:
The music in Tales of Monkey Island was written to be able to be stored in a small space and played back in real-time on a Wii. On the PC it was recorded with higher quality samples, but not radically re-written, because the whole point of even doing it that way was to save time and money. Perhaps they weren't pushing the MIDI format to its limits to make you happy. It doesn't matter.
If the computer(console) in question already has some default sample tables (many consoles do) and you know exactly what those tables are, then you can just have the tiny MIDI data on the game disk. That's what the Wii did.
The Wii's freebie sample tables can't match the thousands of dollars of high-end sample tables used to make the PC's recorded music, so the difference slaps the listener in the face and they scream "MIDI!"
I just don't think you appreciate the context of this discussion at all. We're talking about the reasons why this MIDI composition in particular doesn't sound as good even WITH high end samples.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheebs
Like I said, in order for any of that to mean anything, the music would have to be re-written to control those subtleties, and then you shatter parity with the Wii version, which has to use simpler samples. Thus costing them time and money, which they didn't have. You can't just drop a high-end sample into, say, a General MIDI composition form 1994 and have it sound real. It'll sound decent, but the file isn't going to have the instructions in in it to tell it which of the many subtle ways to play the same note.
They already have a studio and musicians. They're trying to create something that they don't have to make twice, so it gets dumbed down to the lowest common denominator. That's all.Quote:
Loading 2 gigabytes of samples into your sampling hardware VS tracking down a professional acoustically-treated recording space and the mics, preamps, and eqs to go with it... Let alone knowing how to set and position it all... Trust me, the humongormous MIDI patch is still simpler by orders of magnitude.
Gee, no shit.Quote:
MIDI files themselves are tiny. Without exception. Like Josh said, it contains no music; just instructions to perform music. It all depends on how big your sample tables are. Like I said above, those sample tables could be gigabytes in size, in which case MIDI becomes impractical to fit on a game disc (not to mention paying the hundreds of dollars in licensing fees for each sample if you did put it on the game disc) so you record it as a wav or MP3 or whatever and put that on the game disc. Bigger than the MIDI data alone, but much smaller than the MIDI data plus sample tables. That is what the PC is.
That's not the issue, dummy. The issue is the PC version, whose music is MP3 format and DOES use professional samples, but is still the same MIDI composition. Even if you throw high-end samples in, you lose something, unless it's written from the jump with all of that in mind.Quote:
The Wii's freebie sample tables can't match the thousands of dollars of high-end sample tables used to make the PC's recorded music, so the difference slaps the listener in the face and they scream "MIDI!"
That's backwards. You make it to the high-end standard. Then you dump in the low-end sample for the other version. There is no need to re-write anything since the low-end hardware will just ignore all of the sys-ex commands without causing any error.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogacuda
If they composed for general midi and then added in better samples before rendering the PC music like you said, then that's their own fault for being stupid and doing it backwards.
Or maybe it's motherfucking hard to do regardless. It's really not as simple as just dropping in a high quality sample. You have to be able to control all those note variations convincingly. I'm not saying it's impossible, but I've seldom heard it done for the more difficult instruments. You can take that up with Michael Land, I guess.
we need Tommy Tallarico's insight NOW
IBTN
How about the insight of a certified MIDI engineer or perhaps a professional recording engineer?
Oh those are the two people you're arguing with in this thread. Well, carry on then... because I'm sure you know more about what you're talking about then either myself or Cheebs.
http://www.the-nextlevel.com/board/a...1&d=1249251927Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh
Someone has to make and record the music for your faggot ears.
I never said I know more than you and I never said what you said was wrong. I still know what I know. If you want to explain shit to me that I already know ad nauseum like I'm a child without adding anything to the topic as it's applied to this game, then we can go all day, but I don't really see where it's getting us.
I'm not the one that picked a fight here. I'm just telling you what the developers said about the music and why it is how it is.
Honestly, I don't even know what you're asking.
No one asked you anything. You called me out on something and then never addressed it again, instead deciding to bore everyone to tears with technical talk to someone who already has an adequate grasp of the concept, and after two pages of me saying "I know, faggot," you somehow decide that I was calling you wrong and not just irrelevant.
So let's make out?
You don't have adequate knowledge about this though. You said MIDI sounds "artificial" when it doesn't sound like anything, then you said that MIDI is "only able to control the volume, pitch, velocity, aftertouch, duration, chorus, and reverb of a note" when this is flat out incorrect. You have a loose grasp of this scary technical MIDI concept at best. Like almost every other argument you get into on this board, you don't know much about what you're talking about but you try to act like you do.
So, I don't know. Shut up?
Semantics. I prefaced it by saying it doesn't sound like any one thing in particular, but I mean that music created from a MIDI base tends to have tells most of the time, or at the very least in the case of this particular game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh
This is true. I was basing my knowledge on a dated standard and your technical knowledge is superior. And it still doesn't matter, because my point was that adding in more controls is not an automatic thing, and not "simple." And it's not. And you know it's not, so why is this a discussion?Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh
It's not even a fucking argument, dude. It's just you trying to prove you know more about me than something when no one denies it or gives a fuck. Somehow in your mind this became a "Who knows more about composing computer music" argument and it just isn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh
I bow to your superior MIDI knowledge. My point about Monkey Island stands. Can we move the fuck on?
Shut the fuck up and get back to how the iPhone is better than the Wii.
Welcome to a thread about rendering engines from a few months ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh
wii sucks
That was at least two people debating mutually exclusive claims. Neither of us was just trying to lecture the other to be a dick. I was just trying to reconcile information I had read with what you had read. It's not an "I know more than you" thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shin Johnpv
I have no problem losing an argument. If I do then I learned something. Ego has nothing to do with it.
This thread has become the biggest clusterfuck of nerd rage/semantics hard-ons ever!
I'd moderate it, but it's just so darn much more fun than talking about the Wii or the iPhone.
Wii needs to play movies so David Lynch can compare it to iPhone.
Long story short, the Wii is 4x more powerful than the iPhone because it's 128-bit and the iPhone is 32-bit.
Are you challenged?Quote:
Originally Posted by RoleTroll
NES was 8-bit
SNES was 16-bit
N64 was 64-bit (OMG hardware leap!)
N64 expansion pack probably bumped it up to 128 bit
Cube had to be 256 bit to top the N64 + expansion
So at the absolute minimum, that puts the Wii at OVER NINE THOUSAND!!!!!!
Wii is 384 bit.
I thought the Wiimote adds 3 bits, so 387 bit?
Pictobits.
You know, you only have to calibrate the level on the iPhone once.
In Japan the Wii is already up to 500 bit. (They need to it play Mortal Kombat 35, which they are also already up to (You can play as Reptile and put in a secret kode to have him remove his reptile mask (It turns out that Reptile is really Miyamato and then he fights Sheng Long))).Quote:
Originally Posted by Finch
I hear you can play as Mammal.
That's an urban legend. The Wii needs at least another 200 bits before it could even handle that!Quote:
Originally Posted by YellerDog
But my friend did say he saw a guy play as Bird in an arcade in Ohio.
I hear that's Reptile's great grandson!
.
I'll miss him.
It's coming from INSIDE THE HOUSE, Chux!
It's almost like TNL has become sentient, if you can see the content of some of these posts.
http://i29.tinypic.com/28kujag.gif
TNL=FAG LOSERS
-- Billy Mays
I saw this posted today on Telltale's site by one of the developers of the game.
Which is almost exactly what I said in post #40 when Josh said I didn't know what I was talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Will
You just can't let stuff go, can you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogacuda
No, I run shit into the ground every time. I'm an asshole like that.
Frog's right, that's generally the way people refer to it.
Generally, people referred to Nintendo games as intendo tapes. Just because the lowest common denominator (you) does it, doesn't make it right.
HEY. Boy.
Rewind that shit before you take it back to the Stop N' Shop, would'ja?
Ain't payin' no fee.
Pick them paddles up off the floor I gotta use the vackume machines.
That's it? Half a can a GOT DAM red beans inna fridge? Thats all WE GOT?
Sheeeyt. Get on to the store.
Walmarts is having a sale on those TVs with the high definitions.
We gun have sooooooo many chicken wings. Mes-keet!
Cease the day.
It's the people that are actually making the shit, man. At what point does the meaning just change?Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh
Whenever you stop being a faggot.
With so much faggotry left undone? Be reasonable.
Good point. Try not to suck any dicks on your way to the refresh button.