The Future of Digital "Ownership"

There has been debate in various threads about whether or not we are headed toward the end of physical media and whether or not that outcome is a positive one for the consumer. I've been giving some thought to a little bit different spin on this topic:

What will become of digital content we have already purchased when the hardware on which we purchased it is no longer supported?

My first Steam game was either Half-Life 2 or Episode I. I forget which. Assuming it was the former, that would have been in late 2004. Since that time, I have rebuilt my PC twice, once to a completely new operating system. Yet, I still have full access to Half-Life 2 and the other fifty-some-odd games I have purchased through Steam. This make sense, since the PC doesn't have clear cut generations like consoles and portables do. The closest thing would be DirectX versions, perhaps, but Steam has seen me through from DirectX 9 to DirectX 11 with no issues.

But what about consoles? I have 46 XBLA games, 16 WiiWare/VC games, and 15 PSN games. What happens to those when the 360, Wii, and PS3/PSP ride off into the sunset? Will hardware manufacturers ensure their next generation consoles have backward compatibility with each and every downloadable game? This seems more likely with the VC and PS1 Classic games, since they are all emulated anyway, than it does with the original games written for the current hardware. I believe I know the answer to this question, but if these games are unceremoniously dumped, what recourse do we have as consumers? As someone who has actively tried to replace physical copies with virtual ones, it scares me a bit.

Does anyone else have thoughts on this?

Yoshi loves cock

Your mom loves cock.

Also: NOT A CHANCE that downloadable console games will be backwards compatible.

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Originally Posted by Josh

Your mom loves cock.

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Not as much as Yoshi

Here is what I see as the three general paths this future can take:

1) Positive:
The companies manage to design their future hardware to ensure that these games are backwards compatible as well as develop a method for the OS to recognize that you have already purchased this content.

2) Neutral:
The companies initially design future hardware to play and recognize the software you have previously purchased but such functionality is lost in further revisions of the hardware as a means to cut costs.

3) Negative:
The companies expect you to rebuy any old games that they bother to port to the new hardware because videogames are just toys and the only thing which the companies care about and plan on is if you're willing to purchase software that you have already bought. The companies politely instruct you to review the EULA statements to show that they have no obligation at all to have their new hardware use the old software in any form or fashion.

My instinct about this industry tells me to assume that Scenario 3 is most likely, as the companies probably have the strongest belief that anyone who has bought their game before will generally be willing to do so again.

This is actually my greatest concern over the move to digital distribution. What is going to happen in 20 years? Is Pac-Man CE only going to remain alive in the memories of those who played it? Granted, this is actually a bad example since it is available on disc and nobody is better than Namco at re-releasing games until we just don't care anymore.

The point stands, though. I am really worried that publishers are sacrificing long-term gaming culture for short-term profitability and security. Fortunately, though, there are two forces that stand in their way. Piracy and emulation. Pirates are the preservers of digital culture. Look at C64 and Amiga games: while rightly derided as a scourge when they distributed brand new games, cracked copies will soon be the only way to play many games from those systems, thanks to the inevitability of disk failure. I eagerly await the day that pirates hack PSN and XBLA games like they have with WiiWare games.

I think there is a chance that digital games will be backwards compatible on the console. Many of us built a decent library of games so if one console company (most likely Sony) announce that all PSN games carry over to PS4 or whatever, it would force MS to do it too. Nintendo beats to its own drums so they will do whatever they want.

Personally, I don't really worry too much about the old stuff. If I played through these games, chances are I won't revisit them anyway. There are very few games that I go back to, I like the new stuff better. My biggest issue with digital copies is that I cannot resell them when I am done. The used market will be gone if everything goes digital.

If only we knew which, if any, of the hardware companies would get this right so that we could buy the games on their service. I agree with kof that Sony seems like the most likely choice, since they are looking to compete with iTunes but across a larger base of products. Arguably MS has incentive through their Zune integration as well. The real loser is that consumer, who now has even more splintering of platforms instead of the consolidation we really need.

My beef is that even with physical copies, publishers in gaming are starting to sound like the PC software biz. You don't "own" a game, you buy the license that gives you the privilege to access it. If that perception continues to permeate and becomes norm, then it's up to the consumer to rebuy something if it becomes "updated" via being on a new platform, etc.

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Originally Posted by Josh

Also: NOT A CHANCE that downloadable console games will be backwards compatible.

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Actually, I'm almost willing to put money on the fact that you'll be wrong. At least in some cases.

I think that digital downloads aren't going to be able to get away with being stuck to one piece of hardware like physical games have; people have far too big of a difference in perspective when it comes to them. Your digital music can move to new iPods, your digital photos can move from computer to computer, digital content is seen as something that flows from one device to the next because the obvious concerns of how a physical piece of content is going to interact with newer hardware doesn't exist. Even if it isn't an educated opinion, I'd be willing to say that that's how a lot of people see it.

The biggest ray of hope I see in this is... urg, Microsoft. (So much as I hate admitting that.) I don't know all of the technical aspects, but from what I understand, Microsoft is using some level/type of Direct X on the Xbox 360, meaning that game engine stuff is going through Direct X instead of straight to the metal. That's a very, very good thing, because it means that games that are programmed right don't have to be console-specific. New flavor of Direct X on new hardware that can run and interpret the old code, and voila.

Simplified version of what's going on, but I've got a lot of hope for stuff like Xbox Live Arcade games in that regard. As much as I initially hated the idea of consoles becoming more PC-like, the truth is it'll have huge benefits in the long run. Problems could still crop up depending on what kinds of things are hard-coded into the games, but it seems like with the 360 Microsoft was smart and got a lot of that stuff out and into the hands of the OS directly. For example, Halo 2 doing friends lists the old built-in way is the reason why we still can only have 100 friends, so problems like that occurring could hurt the length of hold long older XBLA titles are supported. If the games can be run in a sandbox, or are independent enough from the OS and its features, that won't be as big of an issue.

Sony and Nintendo are another story. If we get Wii HD, well, things are safe for a while. Of course, they're not at all, because Nintendo currently offers no way for you to move your content from one piece of hardware to another, because they have no fucking clue what they're doing digitally. Sony is a wildcard, because unlike Microsoft they seems to put no real emphasis on producing consoles that are a mix of hardware and software that follow some overall strategy. For Sony, it's more a desire to get out some crazy "uber-leet" system and force people to learn things all over again. I have not one clue what's going to happen in the transition to their next system, especially now that Cell development is looking a little shaky.

It's a very interesting topic. Do you buy retail games for a console with the expectation that they'll be playing on the next batch of hardware? I don't think most people really do. And yet, we concern ourselves about that far more with digital purchases (which, funny enough, cost far less). This obviously will become a bigger question once gaming goes more digital, so for now it still feels very much like an experiment.

For me, I know that at first I didn't worry so much about this, but now I do more (in terms of the current generation of digital downloads). The inability to even move games to a new Wii has almost completely stopped me from buying WiiWare games, and the same with DSiWare (unless they are things I really, really want). I still buy PSN stuff, but the more I think about it, even if I have no solid proof as of now, I think I feel more confident buying a game on XBLA over PSN.

The thing is, though, I think with digital downloads, developers and publishers are going to have far more reason to want their games to stick around. If you take something like the move to Xbox 360 from Xbox, they have reason to not want you buying Xbox games, because then you aren't buying their 360 games. With digital downloads, there's no shelf space to fight over, so a game like Pac-Man CE could theoretically be a viable sales product for the next 10 or more years. Remaking the game for the Xbox 720 and then selling it for the same price makes little sense. You do of course get to the question of saturation, and wanting/needing people to re-buy your product again and again on different formats. If you're somebody like Lucas, you want people to keep buying the same Star Wars movies over and over again on different formats instead of buying once digitally and being done.

For gaming, though, I think that there's still a lot to be gained from having one copy of the game you can continue to sell for years and years without having to tweak it for a variety of different platforms.

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Originally Posted by shidoshi

Even if it isn't an educated opinion, I'd be willing to say that that's how a lot of people see it.

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You don't have to cater to buttplant. He got himself banned already.

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Originally Posted by shidoshi

The biggest ray of hope I see in this is... urg, Microsoft. (So much as I hate admitting that.) I don't know all of the technical aspects, but from what I understand, Microsoft is using some level/type of Direct X on the Xbox 360, meaning that game engine stuff is going through Direct X instead of straight to the metal. That's a very, very good thing, because it means that games that are programmed right don't have to be console-specific. New flavor of Direct X on new hardware that can run and interpret the old code, and voila.

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Good catch. I forgot to mention this. I hope your interpretation is correct.

I really hate the idea of digital distribution. I personally really hope DD never takes over. It takes rights away from the consumer.

Physical media won't prevent that though. Look at EA's PC releases that require online verification or Demon's Souls EULA for examples of physical media that tramples your rights.

What's up with the Demon's Souls EULA? I haven't heard anything about it before.

It has to do with how long they commit to keep the servers up, and it's not long (April 2010 maybe?). Since the whole game is essentially an online persistent world, those servers are critical to playing the game. It's a kin to Blizzard shutting down the WoW servers, but since it's a console game, I don't think people notice.

I'm trying to remember what it was but I know at least one EULA was proven illegal. Shit I completely forget the details, but there was a EULA that said the user was just buying the right to use the program. Then when some one tried to sell the program used on Ebay the company had the sales taken off ebay, and the user sued and won. I need to try and find info on it again. I'm completely drawing a blank on what it was or the details of it, I'll try to remember/find out the details.

Anyway, DD is going to only hasten things IMHO. Look at it already, can you sell any of those XBLA, PSN, or Wiiware/VC games you bought? Can you give any of the ones you already bought as a gift to a friend? (I think on PSN you might actually be able to do this).

Just not a fan of DD, and I really hope it never replaces physical media. I do think gamers need to become bigger advocates of their rights, and not just bend over and take shit because they have to play some games.

Anyway this post isn't as strong as it could be, I'm going on about 3 hours of sleep from being up all night working on some shit. I'll try to come back with a more thought out and better post about this.

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Originally Posted by Shin Johnpv

I do think gamers need to become bigger advocates of their rights, and not just bend over and take shit because they have to play some games.

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This applies to countless areas. Consumers always have the ultimate power. They are often just too lazy to wield it.

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Originally Posted by Yoshi

This applies to countless areas. Consumers always have the ultimate power. They are often just too lazy to wield it.

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Exactly, gamers love to bitch and moan, and then they run out and bend over for it. All this crap tells developers/publishers is that now they can release shit with out dedicated servers, because even the people who bitch about it are most likely going to still buy it day one.

It definitely helps that XBLA games tend to be much cheaper than full disc based games. However, I am much more less likely to purchase games from Xbox's On Demand service, mainly because the games are overpriced. CoD2 goes for $30 on the service, yet you can get the game of the year edition with the extra maps for $10 used at Gamestop. Why would I want to pay $30 for something, when I can get the same thing and more for $10? On the flip side. Perfect Dark 0 is $20 ($20 too much if you ask me), but gamestop doesn't even sell it anymore. Of course there are places like ebay that you can still get it used or even new for less then half the cost from On Demand.

I think pricing for digital downloads needs to be lower before it really takes off. I think it is safe to say that the used market can hurt developers and publishers. If people buy the game used, then they don't see a dime of that money. Probably one of the reason game prices have gone up. With no used market, developers and publishers will actually be making money off of every single sale, yet we don't see this playing a role in the price of digital content.

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Originally Posted by ElCapichan

I think it is safe to say that the used market can hurt developers and publishers. If people buy the game used, then they don't see a dime of that money. Probably one of the reason game prices have gone up. With no used market, developers and publishers will actually be making money off of every single sale, yet we don't see this playing a role in the price of digital content.

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Every market out there outside of like food and condoms has a used market. Why should games be any different or special? Plenty of markets are able to make more than enough money to keep going and have a nice profit, why can't games?

Do you really think these publishers who want to nickle and dime gamers for every little thing, which gamers seem to do willingly (buying lightsabers for their avatars), aren't going to try and milk every dime from gamers. Specially when gamers don't do a damn thing about it. I mean come on they want 30 bucks for Assassin's Creed on games on demand. Now you can walk into any Walmart and buy the game brand new for 20. The on demand version doesn't have to be shipped, doesn't need packaging, doesn't need to be printed on a disc. You're not having to share any of the profits with a store. That fucking version should be 10 bucks. Publishers are going to milk as much money out of gamers as they can, cause so few go hey this is bullshit I'm not paying this much/buying this game.

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Originally Posted by Yoshi

But what about consoles? I have 46 XBLA games, 16 WiiWare/VC games, and 15 PSN games. What happens to those when the 360, Wii, and PS3/PSP ride off into the sunset? Will hardware manufacturers ensure their next generation consoles have backward compatibility with each and every downloadable game?

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What happens to all the Genesis games after the last Genesis dies? Ultimately, emulation is the only solution for the long-term preservation of a medium that depends on a specific piece of hardware. That's why it's so important. Already there are games on floppy disk that were barely rescued in time thanks to MAME. That's what's going to happen.

Of course it isn't legal, which is why I think copyright law needs to be reformed to expire sooner for items that are out of print. If copyright expires in 10 years after being out of circulation (as was originally intended... might have even been 7 years), then it's no longer a problem. The current bullshit is destructive.

frogacuda is pretty goddamn correct

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Originally Posted by Shin Johnpv

I mean come on they want 30 bucks for Assassin's Creed on games on demand. Now you can walk into any Walmart and buy the game brand new for 20. The on demand version doesn't have to be shipped, doesn't need packaging, doesn't need to be printed on a disc. You're not having to share any of the profits with a store. That fucking version should be 10 bucks. Publishers are going to milk as much money out of gamers as they can, cause so few go hey this is bullshit I'm not paying this much/buying this game.

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I don't mind the nickel and dime stuff, because I never buy them. But this I absolutely hate. The whole idea of DD is to cut out the middleman/eliminate waste (not really a company's objective but nice for going "green") so DD should be cheaper than retail. But it isn't because companies are fucking retardedly greedy.

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Originally Posted by kingoffighters

I don't mind the nickel and dime stuff, because I never buy them. But this I absolutely hate. The whole idea of DD is to cut out the middleman/eliminate waste (not really a company's objective but nice for going "green") so DD should be cheaper than retail. But it isn't because companies are fucking retardedly greedy.

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Dead Space is $30 on demand, or $14.99 brand fucking new. They need to get with the program.

I think it's less (though not no) greed than it is trying to play nicely with retailers. I suspect the first publisher to make its games cheaper through DD will instantly see reduced or eliminated shelf space at retail as retribution.

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Originally Posted by Yoshi

I think it's less (though not no) greed than it is trying to play nicely with retailers. I suspect the first publisher to make its games cheaper through DD will instantly see reduced or eliminated shelf space at retail as retribution.

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Good point, still stupid.

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Originally Posted by Josh

Also: NOT A CHANCE that downloadable console games will be backwards compatible.

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Indeed. Even if they manage to do it for next gen, it's not going to continue indefinitely.

I'm not big on digital-only downloads but I do buy them, especially cheaper ones. I won't ever re-buy a downloadable but I will have no issue with pirating or emulating a game that I already paid for if that's what needs to be done in the future.

I may have already encountered a situation where I can't do that, though. I bought a downloadable copy Agni: Queen of Darkness (physical copies weren't being shipped outside of India or else I would have bought one) last year. It's no longer available to buy from the company. My PC at the time died a few months later. I did back up the game on disc before that but it won't run on my new PC anyway. I can't tell if there was copy protection that prevented it from transferring over or if it's just a Vista compatibility issue. I don't care about the $13 it cost me but I worry that this version of the game may end up getting lost to history with probably hardly any physical copies out there (looking on Google there seems to be a Russian version of the game, though).

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Originally Posted by Shin Johnpv

Do you really think these publishers who want to nickle and dime gamers for every little thing, which gamers seem to do willingly (buying lightsabers for their avatars), aren't going to try and milk every dime from gamers. Specially when gamers don't do a damn thing about it. I mean come on they want 30 bucks for Assassin's Creed on games on demand. Now you can walk into any Walmart and buy the game brand new for 20. The on demand version doesn't have to be shipped, doesn't need packaging, doesn't need to be printed on a disc. You're not having to share any of the profits with a store. That fucking version should be 10 bucks. Publishers are going to milk as much money out of gamers as they can, cause so few go hey this is bullshit I'm not paying this much/buying this game.

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That was pretty much my point, though I may not have worded it all that well. In simpler terms. Fuck digital distribution if we, the customer, don't share the benefits of it.

This is primarily a problem for those who sell their games used. For those who are willing to pay $60 to play the newest Madden, losing $6 in trade-in value at GameStop isn't a big deal.

Then there's the hardcore crowd. Yeah, we'll end up repurchasing old games. But to some degree we're already doing that anyway (eg, Sega's classic collections on each console).

Can't wait to see if the WiiHD allows Wii users to access their VC/WiiWare purchases.

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Originally Posted by Yoshi

I think it's less (though not no) greed than it is trying to play nicely with retailers. I suspect the first publisher to make its games cheaper through DD will instantly see reduced or eliminated shelf space at retail as retribution.

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Screw the retailers. You can already purchase an album on MP3 for a substantial discount to a CD. Games should be no different.

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Originally Posted by Yoshi

It has to do with how long they commit to keep the servers up, and it's not long (April 2010 maybe?). Since the whole game is essentially an online persistent world, those servers are critical to playing the game. It's a kin to Blizzard shutting down the WoW servers, but since it's a console game, I don't think people notice.

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The game is perfectly fine without the tacked on "persistent world" bullshit.

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Originally Posted by Frogacuda

What happens to all the Genesis games after the last Genesis dies? Ultimately, emulation is the only solution for the long-term preservation of a medium that depends on a specific piece of hardware. That's why it's so important. Already there are games on floppy disk that were barely rescued in time thanks to MAME. That's what's going to happen.

Of course it isn't legal, which is why I think copyright law needs to be reformed to expire sooner for items that are out of print. If copyright expires in 10 years after being out of circulation (as was originally intended... might have even been 7 years), then it's no longer a problem. The current bullshit is destructive.

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That's pretty much what I was getting at with my "all hail the pirates" post. I don't trust companies to make consumer-friendly decisions when it comes to long-term support. Someday, Xbox Live will be turned off, and all the games will vanish into the ether - unless somebody has worked out a way to save them and emulate them.

IMO, the DLC games should also be offered at retailer kiosks. Pick some games and have the kiosk burn a disc for you- with maybe a $5 service charge added.

Games on Demand is a joke. I'd rather go to a retailer to grab a hard copy, esp. if you can get it for 1/2 the GoD price. Someone isn't doing their homework.

Frogacuda is damn right about the Genesis situation. Not every game will be VCed. In the meantime, some Genesis (and for that matter SNES, TG-16) systems are bound to die. What happens when publishers start losing interest in putting out current console releases of 16-bit titles? Bingo. You're going to have to emulate someday.

Namco probably will rerelease Pac-Man CE until no one cares. Watch it turn up on Namco Museum for X720 & PS4.

Well, the Games on Demand thing is a joke because retailers would get very upset if you could buy games for less than they cost in stores, and Microsoft would like to not piss off Walmart and friends too much. I'm not even sure why the service exists in the first place.

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Originally Posted by gameoverDude

Games on Demand is a joke. I'd rather go to a retailer to grab a hard copy, esp. if you can get it for 1/2 the GoD price. Someone isn't doing their homework.

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I'm at the point now where I refuse to buy a PSP game on UMD unless it's an import, or unless the game is never coming out digitally and I really, really, REALLY have to have it. Physical distribution for PSP is dead to me, and I want nothing more to do with it. There are just too many benefits to digital PSP games versus physical copies, even if I can't feel that point of ownership where I can hold the game in my hands.

Will I miss game stores where I can browse through vast libraries of physical copies from years gone by? Sure, absolutely. But more and more, games on physical disc/whatever are just feeling so pointless to me. Let me store all of my games on some sort of internal storage where I then don't have to have my house littered with game boxes.

(With the exception of DS, as the DS is the one thing where I still do love having physical copies.)

Digital Distribution is the devils work.
Physcal copies are better because various retailers have the ability to have sales and clearances. You don't have to wait for a specific company to decide when drop a price.

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Originally Posted by Yoshi

What will become of digital content we have already purchased when the hardware on which we purchased it is no longer supported?

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You will need to rebuy them for the next system. There is no chance in hell that you will be able to carry them over to the next generation systems because then the platform owners need to design their future systems around their current systems.

I believe this is a key reason why both Microsoft and Sony both dropped support for backwards compatibility, so consumers are prepared.

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Originally Posted by Some Stupid Japanese Name

Digital Distribution is the devils work.
Physcal copies are better because various retailers have the ability to have sales and clearances. You don't have to wait for a specific company to decide when drop a price.

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Have you even heard of Steam? The sales in the PC DD space are out of control.

Digital distribution for consoles is another story.

We are talking consoles, correct?

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Originally Posted by Frogacuda

What happens to all the Genesis games after the last Genesis dies? Ultimately, emulation is the only solution for the long-term preservation of a medium that depends on a specific piece of hardware. That's why it's so important. Already there are games on floppy disk that were barely rescued in time thanks to MAME. That's what's going to happen.

Of course it isn't legal, which is why I think copyright law needs to be reformed to expire sooner for items that are out of print. If copyright expires in 10 years after being out of circulation (as was originally intended... might have even been 7 years), then it's no longer a problem. The current bullshit is destructive.

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The problem of unavailable hardware is precisely what one of the DMCA exemptions is intended to address, albeit referenced in the case of access control circumvention. That exemption was first approved in 2003, renewed in 2006, and again in 2009 (at least on an interim basis until the final decision is made). So there is evidence that there is legal sympathy for this problem. Of course, emulation in and of itself is perfectly legal, the only legal issues are access control circumvention and copyright infringement with the software. Put together the full legal picture and while we don't have the ability for every person to run our software, at least there are settings where the preservation of the ability to execute software is currently legally protected in the US.

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Originally Posted by Frogacuda

What happens to all the Genesis games after the last Genesis dies? Ultimately, emulation is the only solution for the long-term preservation of a medium that depends on a specific piece of hardware. That's why it's so important. Already there are games on floppy disk that were barely rescued in time thanks to MAME. That's what's going to happen.

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Just to nitpick, new clone hardware does exist, and I can't think of any arcade games that were on floppies. Your point is valid, though. Eventually all hardware and media will fail, and all that remains are digital copies.
Amiga Forever comes with a collection of licensed software, but some of the disk images are from cracked copies because the originals are so damned rare, or they vanished entirely before accurate floppy disk imaging was possible..

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Originally Posted by Shin Johnpv

I'm trying to remember what it was but I know at least one EULA was proven illegal. Shit I completely forget the details, but there was a EULA that said the user was just buying the right to use the program. Then when some one tried to sell the program used on Ebay the company had the sales taken off ebay, and the user sued and won. I need to try and find info on it again. I'm completely drawing a blank on what it was or the details of it, I'll try to remember/find out the details.

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I think that was AutoCAD or something, and the issue boiled down to the fact that if the physical disc is decoupled from the license, then there is nothing wrong with selling the original disc, regardless of the license terms. The publisher of the software pretty much shot themselves in the foot with the EULA.

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Originally Posted by bVork

Well, the Games on Demand thing is a joke because retailers would get very upset if you could buy games for less than they cost in stores, and Microsoft would like to not piss off Walmart and friends too much. I'm not even sure why the service exists in the first place.

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If they only offered older games that are out of print, then that wouldn't be that big of a deal. Even retailers that make the bulk of their profits from used games make most of it from more recent games.

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Originally Posted by epmode

Have you even heard of Steam? The sales in the PC DD space are out of control.

Digital distribution for consoles is another story.

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Yeah, Steam and Impulse and friends have done more to reduce PC game prices than anything in history.

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Originally Posted by Spike

You will need to rebuy them for the next system.

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This is the most likely course of action. The more prevalent digital distribution becomes, the more locked down content will be, and the less control consumers will have over the products. We're already seeing it with what John described in his post as the loss of certain consumer rights.

This is what companies ultimately want. They want to be able to tell us when, where, and how much we can have access to their content. It's not going to happen right away, but it's gradually moving towards that direction and most people won't even notice it because each step is so small.

With regards to downloadable content being locked to specific systems, I don't mind that too much. It's no different than physical games generally being system specific. Sure, backwards compatibility is a big plus, but it's not something I expect to have as a consumer.

What I do expect, however, is to have a certain level of control over the products I buy, and digital distribution impairs much of that. For $5 games, I don't care too much because it's a reasonable trade-off. But that's no longer the case when digital games start costing retail price. I would completely be for digital distribution if copyright laws were reformed in a similar manner described by Frog. As is, though, digital distribution benefits content providers more than it does consumers, and I doubt that will change any time soon.

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Originally Posted by kedawa

Just to nitpick, new clone hardware does exist,

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Fine, let's say Atari Lynx or something unloved, then. Although even if it's 50 years from now, the day will come for Genesis too.

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I can't think of any arcade games that were on floppies.

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Sega System 24 games are on floppies, and securing working versions of these to emulate was very difficult and I think there might be a couple that they couldn't find (Bullet, perhaps?)

That's bizarre. I can't imagine a floppy drive and disk being a practical alternative to mask roms. Access speed, reliability, and component cost are all stacked against such a design. It's Sega though, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

There have been arcade games on cassettes, too (like really old Data East stuff).

And there are even odder storage devices out there, like the bubble memory used by several Konami games.

You should read what you've signed up to. The console hardware companies aren't obligated to give you anything on a new platform. Buying intangibles means that you are accepting 0 value for what you are buying beyond whatever qualitative entertainment you gain from it.

Thing is, every transaction has two parties. If there's something I've bought not available due to format, I've got no problem pirating the living hell out of it. I'll do it all day with a smile on my face and a clean conscience. More, I encourage everyone else to do exactly the same thing. I spent my money. I own this thing. The legality of the EULA only comes into play in a court of law, and seeing as it's never going to get there, for all practical concerns it's not an issue.

Oddly enough, PC games get a pass on this. I've got my physical copy of System Shock 2 kicking around somewhere but can't play it, it just crashes to the desktop. If Good Old Games released it for $10 I'd re-buy it in a heartbeat.

James

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Originally Posted by James

Oddly enough, PC games get a pass on this. I've got my physical copy of System Shock 2 kicking around somewhere but can't play it, it just crashes to the desktop. If Good Old Games released it for $10 I'd re-buy it in a heartbeat.

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Try DDFix (and the resolution patcher on the same page). It does wonders for Thief 1+2 and System Shock 2.

Works perfectly in Windows 7 64 bit for me.

To be honest, I'm not sure if I'll still be interested in gaming by 2012, and I imagine many who are replying in this thread will be in a similar situation.

As for some digitally distributed media (games on demand) costing more, I believe it's a combination of avoiding retailer retaliation, and some (I emphasize SOME) manufacturers adding a "convenience fee" surcharge. Some have the belief that the consumer will be willing to pay a little extra for the ability to forgo having to travel to a brick-and-mortar retailer and dealing with the rigmarole.

With all the talk about "cloud computing" permeating the interwebs, I'd imagine a time where there will be this ubiquitous piece of hardware that's nothing more than a dumb terminal; a conduit to access content from some skynet-like media serving entity (OnLive is the epoch of this). If that happens, every right we take for granted now will be nothing but footnotes in history as content providers will have totalitarianism-like control over all facets of interacting with the content, and many consumers will be totally oblivious to the fact

I'm actually somewhat ambivalent towards digital distribution as far as owning the media goes. Having a single "portal" where all your purchased games are available, and menu navigation being the only task that is performed to get to those games is rather convenient, however, there is also something visceral about owning physical media...until the threshold of having too much clutter is breached. One thing no one has mentioned is that a total digital method of distribution adds more points of failure to the chain. Now the consumer only has to worry about personal hardware failure, however, going digital also adds internet infrastructure and content server failures to the equation. Due to the piecemeal design of the infrastructure, and the uneven distribution of broadband in the U.S, a lot of consumers will simply be left out altogether.

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Originally Posted by Shou

You should read what you've signed up to. The console hardware companies aren't obligated to give you anything on a new platform. Buying intangibles means that you are accepting 0 value for what you are buying beyond whatever qualitative entertainment you gain from it.

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Bingo. While I like DD alot, I always figure in the fact that its a double-edge sword that may cut me off in the future.

Anything I really want to keep around, I buy the physical media.

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Originally Posted by Yoshi

This applies to countless areas. Consumers always have the ultimate power. They are often just too lazy to wield it.

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The shitstorm against PSPgo with a small surge in 3000 sales is a pretty good power wield.

My Wii died with something like $200 of downloads on it. My reaction was "that sucks," but I haven't been particularly pissed off about it. I realized the following things:
- Most of my interest in games is tied to the online functions, be it leaderboard or multiplayer community. When that ceases, the game is dead to me anyway.
- There's a very small handful of games I would play long after this gen ended.
- If I'm wrong, emulator scene should have whatever I'm looking for available in 8-15 years. I can wait that long. Hell if they can break suicide board CPS3 encryption, they can emulate anything as long as the interest is there. I'm betting nostalgic pirates are always interested.
- I play past gen stuff rarely and not multiplayer.
- I'm pretty confident every single player experience that rises to the top finds a way to get a rerelease, somewhere, somehow. Game industry isn't that creative.Q Games (Rez HD), Geo Wars, and Namco stuff got on a compilation disk. Cave Story is WiiWared. Arcade collections get ported regularly. If Bit.Trip collection didn't get on a disc package down the road, I'd be surprised. I'll wait 'n see what happens with stuff like Splosion Man and Shadow Complex. I think they'll end up on something in the future, even if it is another download.

What I'm getting at is while the bullshit EULA license to play exists and I don't like it, it appears I'm using 99% of the games I play just for that purpose. 99% of games are disposable or forgettable. Something seems to happen that safeguards that top 1% from complete obscurity. Therefore, I'll continue counting on the "god has a plan XD" theory and not worry about the ownership crisis. As for the right to used sales, I'd rather the developer and publisher get a shot at the revenue instead of a second hand dealer. But I usually give away my used games to friends instead of sell. Goodwill is better than $2.60 store credit at Gamestop.

I'm pretty ok with this. Anything I miss badly enough to play again I'll probably just pirate. Steam and companies like GoG I'm not worried about. Especially GoG, you can do whatever you want the files. I mean they give you a full dump, so they can be stored and used wherever I want.

If you think about it it's amazing that so many old games are still playable on new PC hardware because the community always steps in to get these old games running, so in the future I have confidence that I will be able to play most any old game I want via some avenue, legit or not. I'll probably end up buying more remakes or reissues of games in the future too, JUST LIKE I'M DOING NOW.

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Originally Posted by DJ Incompetent

My Wii died with something like $200 of downloads on it. My reaction was "that sucks," but I haven't been particularly pissed off about it.

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As incompetent as Nintendo is about a lot of things, they'll get this fixed for you if you decide to get another Wii. I'm not totally sure if you have to send them both Wiis or not to get the transfer done, but your downloads aren't permanently stuck on that dead Wii if you don't want them to be.

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Originally Posted by Frogacuda

Fine, let's say Atari Lynx or something unloved, then. Although even if it's 50 years from now, the day will come for Genesis too.

Sega System 24 games are on floppies, and securing working versions of these to emulate was very difficult and I think there might be a couple that they couldn't find (Bullet, perhaps?)

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Bullet is actually System 16. It's a dual joystick run'n gun somewhat like a simpler version of Total Carnage. Good stuff. Unfortunately, the MAME emulation dies a minute or two into the 2nd stage. Shame Sega didn't attempt this on Genesis with multitap support for 4 joysticks.

I'm not really a fan of the idea of Digital ownership as it is now. I live in a college town and I still like having the ability to grab a hard copy and go to a friends house. Some Digital games are locked to your console, which makes transportation inconvenient. The same can be said for things like downloaded movies through the PSstore.

But I'm not completely against it if it is both A)easy to store and back up, so I can bring it with me, on a USB drive or the like and B) cheaper than physical media.

I also don't like the impact it might have on consumers rights. But I think that has been covered pretty well.

and yoshi loves cock.

I have this same problem. It's always going to be up in the air about how to make the media transferable without sacrificing the security of the product. Unfortunately it seems the only way to truly "own" the content you purchase is to lock yourself into buying from the same company forever. I honestly wish consoles would just die and we could instead have one standard system that plays everything. That way you wouldn't have to worry about compatibility in the future since everything will be based on the same technology, like DVD or Blu-ray players.

If some one is that worried about being able to port purchased dl content onto future consoles (or even a different console) then simply do not buy them, or buy them and risk the consequences. This shits a luxury item. Game companies don't owe us future use on new hardware just because you download an XBLA game.

That is a horse shit outlook to have. That is like telling people to not worry about the shelf life of Twinkies.

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Originally Posted by epmode

Try DDFix (and the resolution patcher on the same page). It does wonders for Thief 1+2 and System Shock 2.

Works perfectly in Windows 7 64 bit for me.

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No luck. Working on a fresh install updated to 2.30, it gives me a "can't find ddraw.dll" error. Adding ddraw.dll to the directory gets the same results. Using the sshock.exe file also linked off that page makes it tell me the game is already pactched. Once I reconfigure for resolution it tells me "video card not supported", and all I've got is a GeForce 8800 GT. If there's a way to make all this work together I've no idea what it could be.

James

Maybe a dumb question, but you do have directX installed right?

I do. I did a bit of research and it's a known bug with DDfix, with the solution being "re-unzip into the the thief folder again, click "remove patch" and "apply patch" ". I did, several times, and it still won't go. I'm very sad.

-edit- And now very happy. Downloaded prepatched version and got the same "video card not supported" issue, removed patch, reapplied patch, it works perfect. :D

I wouldn't go through all this for very many games at all, but System Shock 2 is worth it. I haven't played it since it originally came out.

James