Whatever Happened to Sonic

I've been on a Sonic kick this year. For a long time there, the sonic series was my favorite series of games. I owned every Sonic game up to the DC titles. I watched the cartoons, owned the comics. I even had the lunch box!

But that was then, and this is now. Sonic really isn't as awesome as he used to be. Something happened to him when they switched to 3D. Maybe it was the George Lucas affect where the creators spend so much time on making a game world, they forget to build good characters. Or maybe it is like what happened to mickey mouse where he became more and more meaningless as he was softened for children.

Man, I miss the sonic of the 90s :(


Btw, gametap put out a short history of series for sonic. Enjoy:

You should check out Sonic Megamix if you haven't already.

Sonic the Hedgehog is an anagram for 'he hogged the coins', 'hi god, cheese thong' and 'oh gosh, ethnic edge'. Hmm...

The last decent Sonic was Adventure on the DC, and that was already heavily flawed. The second I played Adventure 2 I knew it was all over and haven't bought another Sonic game since.

I think I played a demo of A2. It was the level with a big truck.

I never really dug the insertion of Sonic into a human like world. It was just bland and animeish.

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Originally Posted by kedawa

Sonic the Hedgehog is an anagram for 'he hogged the coins'

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sounds about right since sonic usually comes out on a shitty cash-grab by sega

this was always my image of sonic. It is a pretty far cry from how he is portrayed in the DC titles.



lol at sonic teams horrid 90s ballads.

Man, I love that Sonic CD intro and ending so much.

Amy was so scared and cute, too =3

You could always go with:

Or GTFO.

After Sonic CD, it was all downhill. The poor hedgehog should have been put out of his misery after that. It's been 16 years and they still haven't come close to equalling it, much less topping it. Endless attempts to shoehorn a game mechanic that only works in 2D into a 3D world haven't been kind.

A good Sonic game is a combination of speed and exploration. There should be multiple paths through the levels, lots of hidden goodies, and distinctive set pieces all over the place. And no sidekicks, of course. If they could give us that then Sonic would finally be back.

-edit- And Sonic Boom will always be better than Toot Toot Sonic Warrior. I never really forgave Gamefan for persuading me to import Sonic CD because of the music.

Finally seeing what the intro animation was supposed to look like on the Gamecube was nice, though. The collection was worth it for that alone. :)

James

lol, sonic R. It was ok. I liked playing as metal sonic.

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Originally Posted by James

After Sonic CD, it was all downhill. The poor hedgehog should have been put out of his misery after that.

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Say what you will, but Sonic 3 was pretty fantastic, regardless of where you feel like the series peaked. S&K was the first disappointment in the series.

The 16-bit Sonic games really are among the best platformers ever. It's a shame some shitty recent games have made it more vogue to bash the older ones now, because they absolutely deserve the same kind of esteem the old Marios get.

Rush Adventure made me kind of glad the series is still around, though. I think there's still potential if Sega wasn't married to the idea of rushing them out half finished. The obscene lack of polish bothers me so much more than any new character, mechanic, or any other trite excuse for why the franchise has gone downhill.

It may have been fantastic but it just came too soon after Sonic CD. It was just a couple of months, and I'd had my fill of Sonic. Too much too soon, so a much lessened impact.

The 16-bit Sonics have always been bashed a bit as shallow and flashy compared to Mario. Is there more of that going on now than there used to be?

James

It was 15+ years ago. You've had plenty of time to work up an appetite. Issues like that really fade away as the years advance.

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Originally Posted by James

After Sonic CD, it was all downhill. The poor hedgehog should have been put out of his misery after that. It's been 16 years and they still haven't come close to equalling it, much less topping it. Endless attempts to shoehorn a game mechanic that only works in 2D into a 3D world haven't been kind.

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Sonic 3 and Sonic and Knuckles is pretty rad. You should go back and try them. In retrospect, they are amazing for a cart based game.

I think a lot of people dump on them because the bosses are so much easier and the level design is slightly different from Sonic 2.

Sonic CD is an odd beast. The level layout was just odd. But getting to race metal sonic made it all worth while.

They should have titled Sonic & Knuckles "Fuck Sandopolis Zone, Let's Play Something Else."

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Originally Posted by Frogacuda

Say what you will, but Sonic 3 was pretty fantastic, regardless of where you feel like the series peaked. S&K was the first disappointment in the series.

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Sonic and Knuckles is just fine. I think people get upset with it because most of the bosses are nonstandard (I'm looking at you, big stone asshole that jumps to his death into a sand pit) and it doesn't have anything new to it. It is just Sonic 3.5+easy. It is better if you go in know it is levels left out of 3. And Flying battery is great.

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Originally Posted by Frogacuda

They should have titled Sonic & Knuckles "Fuck Sandopolis Zone, Let's Play Something Else."

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I can agree with this. I'd always fuck up the part where you have to let sand fill rooms. I can respect that they wanted to try new things, but fuck if I don't lose at least 5 lives trying to get through that crap.

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Originally Posted by Frogacuda

It was 15+ years ago. You've had plenty of time to work up an appetite. Issues like that really fade away as the years advance.

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I've never been much of a historian. Generally, if a game doesn't grab me the first time (and I played both Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles to completion, good endings) I don't tend to go back without good reason. So far, I've had no reason to revisit them, or even think much of them in the last 15 years.

I still can't believe they left Sonic 3: Sonic & Knuckles off the 360 collection. On the plus side, they saved 3 megabytes of space on the DVD.

James

they left it off the ps3 version too.

Fucking lame.


I had no idea that you could play as metal sonic in Sonic Advnture DX



the story to sonic adventure was horrid. It would be better if I could use metal sonic to kill those stupid water drop looking things

I think I miss Sonic Team more than Sonic himself. Also, Smilebit.

Sometimes I miss Sonic Team to the extent that I get perverted thoughts about trying one of the more recent Sonic console games, but I know that's probably not a good idea.

I thought Sonic Rush was pretty good though. I tried to play Sonic Rush Adventure but there were too many story elements before the actual game started and black fluid started spurting out of my nose like it did with the guy in District 9, so I had to stop.

I'll throw my hat in the ring to show support for Sonic Rush as well (It's good to hear Rush Adventure seems to have some fans here as well, I'll have to play that sooner or later). I also liked Sonic Advance a lot, too.

Sonic Adventure 2 is a hard one for me to judge. I liked it even though there were a lot of elements I hated (Primarily how they fucked up Knuckles/Rouge's Emerald radar from tracking all three emeralds at the same time like in SA1). The speed stages were still good and I liked the shooting stages of Tails and Eggman.

The point were I really started being disappointed in the series was either with Sonic Advance 2 or Sonic Heroes (Whichever came first). Sonic Advance 2 had level designs that put me to sleep and Sonic Heroes had it's heart in the right place by focusing on speed stages but fucked it up with awkwardly needing to switch between members of your party.

Sonic Unleashed would have been a decent game if it wasn't for the damn story levels between the action. Yeah, the Werehog was not pleasant, but wasn't a deal breaker (Besides being conceptually stupid, it played like a simpler God of War - not something I want in a Sonic game, but not terrible to actually play). Running around a 3D level hub spending 30 minutes taking a MacGuffin from point A to point B just to play a three minute action stage is what fucking killed it. Even the Wii version, which did away with most of that shit, still had too much of it.

I still think there is hope for Sonic, but I do think it needs a complete overhaul again and to return back towards it's roots. I'm not counting on this happening, but I'm still hopeful. Sega also needs to remove their milking machine from Poor Sonic's teets and stop branding everything with Sonic as their goto guy (Sonic's Ultimate Genesis Collection, Sonic & Sega Allstar Racing, etc).

Love Gametap's quick Sonic History documentary - the original design for Sonic was awesome.

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Originally Posted by Mzo

The last decent Sonic was Adventure on the DC, and that was already heavily flawed. The second I played Adventure 2 I knew it was all over and haven't bought another Sonic game since.

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This pretty much sums it up.

And Sonic CD is still the best real platformer ever.

So a man that complains about how easy modern platformers is going to nominate Sonic CD, the one with the easiest bosses next to S&K, as the best real plat former?

You're a silly man Yoshi. A silly man!

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Originally Posted by Geen

Love Gametap's quick Sonic History documentary - the original design for Sonic was awesome.

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I like that he was essentially Super Bill Clinton in MJ's clothes and he was dating Madonna.

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Originally Posted by Fe 26

So a man that complains about how easy modern platformers is going to nominate Sonic CD, the one with the easiest bosses next to S&K, as the best real plat former?

You're a silly man Yoshi. A silly man!

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All Sonic bosses are easy. CD had the best music, and I liked the time mechanic. And "modern platformers" is an oxymoron. The genre is essentially dead unless you expand the shit out of the genre like some people like to do.

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Originally Posted by Frogacuda

The 16-bit Sonic games really are among the best platformers ever. It's a shame some shitty recent games have made it more vogue to bash the older ones now, because they absolutely deserve the same kind of esteem the old Marios get.

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Truth. It's bad enough when the media does it but I'm pretty disgusted TNL favoured Mario by a huge margin in the top 10 voting.

Because no one has fond, unjaded memories of playing a Mario game, right ?

I have fond, unjaded memories of both series.

Unjaded is overrated.

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Originally Posted by Fe 26

Sonic and Knuckles is just fine. I think people get upset with it because most of the bosses are nonstandard (I'm looking at you, big stone asshole that jumps to his death into a sand pit) and it doesn't have anything new to it. It is just Sonic 3.5+easy. It is better if you go in know it is levels left out of 3. And Flying battery is great.

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It felt very expansion packy and and uneven to me. The great parts were great, but the shitty levels kind of kill the whole experience for me.

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Originally Posted by Yoshi

All Sonic bosses are easy. CD had the best music, and I liked the time mechanic. And "modern platformers" is an oxymoron. The genre is essentially dead unless you expand the shit out of the genre like some people like to do.

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This is so completely not true. It's still a major genre. It just isn't the dominant genre like it once was.

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Originally Posted by Yoshi

Sonic is overrated.

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Originally Posted by Frogacuda

This is so completely not true. It's still a major genre. It just isn't the dominant genre like it once was.

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Then you're expanding the genre again. Because I can't name five true platform console games from 2009. And if a genre moves to portables, it is dead by definition.

To answered buttplant's thread title though, Sonic is probably off trying to figure out where the extra "n" in "happenned" came from.

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Originally Posted by Yoshi

And if a genre moves to portables, it is dead by definition.

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You'll word anything to make yourself not seem wrong.

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Originally Posted by Yoshi

Then you're expanding the genre again. Because I can't name five true platform console games from 2009. And if a genre moves to portables, it is dead by definition.

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Trine, New Super Mario Bros, Mirror's Edge, Splosion Man, Braid, Grappling Hook, A Boy and His Blob...

I know it's not a huge genre, but it seems fairly vital to me, still.

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Originally Posted by Yoshi

And if a genre moves to portables, it is dead by definition.

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The best selling piece of hardware of the current generation (by a large margin) is a portable; we (as in you) need to start to understand that portables are no longer the half-assed side projects they used to be.

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Originally Posted by shidoshi

The best selling piece of hardware of the current generation (by a large margin) is a portable; we (as in you) need to start to understand that portables are no longer the half-assed side projects they used to be.

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No, now they are worse than half-assed side projects. Now they ruin the main series of games instead of just being forgettable side stories.

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Originally Posted by Frogacuda

Trine, New Super Mario Bros, Mirror's Edge, Splosion Man, Braid, Grappling Hook, A Boy and His Blob...

I know it's not a huge genre, but it seems fairly vital to me, still.

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Mirror's Edge was 2008, so you got to six. I would have left Grappling Hook out inadvertently. I'd still hardly call that a "major" genre. You need two indie games and an XBLA game to get to six even.

Alright enough flogging the dead horse that is Yoshi's attitude toward portable gaming. He's not going to hear it.

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Originally Posted by Yoshi

Mirror's Edge was 2008, so you got to six. I would have left Grappling Hook out inadvertently. I'd still hardly call that a "major" genre.

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Mirror's Edge PC was '09, though, so I figured you'd give that to me.

Anyway, I wasn't sitting there trying to think of every single one that comes out, but let's face it, platform games are as vital a genre as, say, strategy games, music games, or survival horror games. If I included the mediocre ones, the list would get pretty big pretty quick, and if I included handheld games (and let's face it, they do count whether you like them or not), the list would be massive.

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Originally Posted by Frogacuda

Mirror's Edge PC was '09, though, so I figured you'd give that to me.

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:lol: touche

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Anyway, I wasn't sitting there trying to think of every single one that comes out, but let's face it, platform games are as vital a genre as, say, strategy games, music games, or survival horror games. If I included the mediocre ones, the list would get pretty big pretty quick, and if I included handheld games (and let's face it, they do count whether you like them or not), the list would be massive.

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I'll give you strategy, but there were a shit ton of music games that came out in 2009. Granted, I think (hope?) music games are a fad, but they are way more important right now than platformers. Survival horror games are a dying breed as well. You could strongly argue that Resident Evil has abandoned the genre; couple that with the Silent Hill team dissolving, and it's in bad shape. Looking forward, Dead Space 2 seems to be essentially alone.

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Originally Posted by Yoshi

:lol: touche

I'll give you strategy, but there were a shit ton of music games that came out in 2009. Granted, I think (hope?) music games are a fad, but they are way more important right now than platformers. Survival horror games are a dying breed as well. You could strongly argue that Resident Evil has abandoned the genre; couple that with the Silent Hill team dissolving, and it's in bad shape. Looking forward, Dead Space 2 seems to be essentially alone.

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Music games sell a fuck ton, but I don't know if they win out on quantity. Platformers are the same way to some extent. Most of them aren't big sellers, but there's usually like one or two a year that will do really well (NSMBW being that game this year). The mainstream is pretty willing to accept them still.

Survival horror might have been a bad example because you can get all purist about it (and I understand that impulse). But my point is that it's not like adventure games where there just hasn't been one that has sold worth shit in a million years. And even then they still make a good number of adventures.

The problem with platformers is that pure ones don't last very long, so they're increasingly relegated to platforms where the value equation is perceived differently (i.e. downloads and handhelds). I think people still like them otherwise.

I gave up on the series when the Shadow game was announced, accompanied by that official art of him holding a gun. Sometimes I can't believe that people still give the series a chance after that.

I made one exception for Sonic Rush when the internet convinced me that it was worth playing, but I ended up hating that game more than any mediocre 3D Sonic I'd ever played. I think it's the only Sonic game that I have started but never finished.

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Originally Posted by Frogacuda

Say what you will, but Sonic 3 was pretty fantastic, regardless of where you feel like the series peaked. S&K was the first disappointment in the series.

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S&K is the only half of the combined game worth playing. S3&K consists of about 75% easy gimmick stages that are too long for their own good, followed by an awesome endgame sequence that almost makes up for everything that preceded it. It's pretty awesome from the Lava Reef boss onward. Almost everything before that is throwaway filler.

I think the original game might be my favorite these days.

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Originally Posted by Sixfortyfive

I gave up on the series when the Shadow game was announced, accompanied by that official art of him holding a gun. Part of me still can't believe that people still give the series a chance after that.

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Shadow was actually better than the Sonics right before and right after it. It wasn't really trying to be a Sonic game though, it was a spinoff with its own play mechanics. Not a fantastic game, but not the low point in the series that people often assume it is on concept alone.

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I made one exception for Sonic Rush when the internet convinced me that it was worth playing, but I ended up hating that game more than any mediocre 3D Sonic I'd ever played.

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The main thing Rush had going for it was a really solid grasp of flow, which had been sorely lacking from the Advance games. The level design was excellent in that regard and playing for time attack was a lot of fun. Wasn't wild about the graphics and the music I would have liked more in a different game. Sonic Rush Adventure was really good.

<shrug> Never liked sonic that much. Game was never fast enough for me after advertising being all fast. Exploration wasn't what I wanted out of it, and that's why I think I never got into them much. I've played just about all of them to completion too, but I'd rather replay any of the mario games than any of the sonic games.

No mention of Sonichu? Come one, there's even a Sonichu level on Little Big Planet.

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Originally Posted by Yoshi

I think (hope?) music games are a fad...

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Why? What's wrong with music games?

Nothing individually, but they have gotten out of control. It's similar to consoles. I wish there was a dominant music game that had every sing I wanted to play. And, frankly, I wish a company other than EA or Activision made it.

Sonic is due for reinvention. The Adventure games were suitable at the time but they definitely shouldn't serve as the departure point for every console outing since. I wasn't a fan of Dark Chronicles but it was a thoughtful take on new designs and backdrops instead OK this time we'll do a Arabian sonic, Knight sonic, Werewolf Sonic, Anti-hero Shadow, and so on.

are there no fans of the gba sonics here? i enjoyed advance 3. i still need to give 1 and 2 a shot. i'm glad we have portable around to keep things simple with a lot of these games.

now that i say that...i wonder how gaming would have evolved without portable systems? since they could only handle 2D graphics for so long it seems to have kept a lot of older series alive in that way while consoles focused on 3D. maybe all these rebirth games would be more meaningful now if portables were never around.

Now I have the incredible urge to play a sonic game.

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Originally Posted by rama

if portables were never around.

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Don't tease.

All four Genesis Sonics would've been great, but every one of them had way too many moments where Sega figured we were getting bored of the reason we were playing -- that we were bored of the reason we weren't bored -- and threw a slow-as-molasses water level or something equally pace-breaking like Sandopolis at us. There were little things too, like the horizontally aligned fans in Sonic 2's Oil Ocean. In a game about speed and momentum, here are these riskless, unavoidable obstacles whose only purpose is to break the purpose of the entire game for a few seconds.

Shit like that is all over every Sonic game. They are baffling and self-defeating decisions of design. Come to think of it, they are a perfectly fitting representation of contemporary Sega. The Oil Ocean Fan should adorn the "SEGA" intro screen of every Sonic Chronicles, Golden Axe 360 and Shining Force Neo from now on.

I can't fault them for trying to change the pace up.

Then do it through some methodical platforming or something. Don't just stick a fucking fan in my face and tell me I can't play your videogame for a little while.

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Originally Posted by A Robot Bit Me

In a game about speed and momentum, here are these riskless, unavoidable obstacles whose only purpose is to break the purpose of the entire game for a few seconds.

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i feel like this was just the way sonic stages progress. you have your easier running stages early on and then you just have to be a little more careful on the later stages and think about how fast you're going.

the sonic rush games seem to do a nice job of mixing speed with obsticles that are avoidable (once you learn the stages) so you can just speed through the whole stage. i kind of miss the exploration in those games, though. also, in older sonic games it used to mean something if you got all the rings on the stage. now your score is based on how fast you can get through the stage.

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Originally Posted by rama

are there no fans of the gba sonics here? i enjoyed advance 3. i still need to give 1 and 2 a shot. i'm glad we have portable around to keep things simple with a lot of these games.

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The Sonic Advance games were each exercises in the different ways to subtly fuck up the level design and ruin the game in the process. It really is a testament to just how hard it is to pull off a game like Sonic.

The first Advance had this very stop-and-start level design with no flow, and a lot of cheap deaths. It's the whole cliche of zooming along at 100mph and slamming into a wall of spikes. Which was never actually true of the Genesis Sonics but was of that one.

Advance 2 went the other way, for pure speed. But because of that it ended up destroying the exploration aspect with levels that literally just required you to hold right and win. To make it worse, they hammered in a really ill-fitting exploration aspect with the chaos emeralds that was one of the least fun things I've ever tried to do in a game, and they somehow wanted you to do it with every character.

Advance 3 was the best of the bunch for not being obviously broken as a game, but as a Sonic game it was weak. The levels weren't fun to play for score/time, they didn't have a great amount of depth, and they started to tinker with puzzle elements that just didn't work in this kind of a game. Advance 3 reminds me a little of the Game Gear sonics, actually, which isn't a terrible thing, but not classic Sonic.

What was fairly shocking to me was how well they turned this around with the Rush games, which had tremendous depth and flow and were perfect for time attack. The first Rush had a lot of bottomless pits, which frustrated some people who weren't good at reading the levels, but even that minor flaw they turned around in the second.

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Originally Posted by A Robot Bit Me

Then do it through some methodical platforming or something. Don't just stick a fucking fan in my face and tell me I can't play your videogame for a little while.

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have you watched any speed runs? There are still ways to get through that level pretty fast!

And I'm with rama, the obstacles were part of increasing the difficulty. Which is something nice about the sonic games. Everyone can pick them up and play the first two levels. Then they start to get a little harder. This was pretty nice for the time. Back then a lot of games were either balls hard the whole time or stupid easy, the whole time.

In that regard, that is one thing sonic shared with Mario.

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Originally Posted by A Robot Bit Me

All four Genesis Sonics would've been great, but every one of them had way too many moments where Sega figured we were getting bored of the reason we were playing -- that we were bored of the reason we weren't bored -- and threw a slow-as-molasses water level or something equally pace-breaking like Sandopolis at us. There were little things too, like the horizontally aligned fans in Sonic 2's Oil Ocean. In a game about speed and momentum, here are these riskless, unavoidable obstacles whose only purpose is to break the purpose of the entire game for a few seconds.

Shit like that is all over every Sonic game. They are baffling and self-defeating decisions of design. Come to think of it, they are a perfectly fitting representation of contemporary Sega. The Oil Ocean Fan should adorn the "SEGA" intro screen of every Sonic Chronicles, Golden Axe 360 and Shining Force Neo from now on.

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I agree with Labyrinth Zone and Sandopolis Zone. Sonic 1 got away with it because it really was going for a pretty different pace/vibe in each stage, and it wasn't a pure speed game yet, but Labyrinth is still a lowlight.

That said, I don't feel like Sonic 2, 3, or CD had anything that made me want to turn them off. I've played those games front to back a million times each.

Labyrinth and Sandopolis are the only ones that really bug me, too (Sandopolis much moreso).

And one thing I loved about Sonic CD was that you could choose to replay the levels you wanted in Time Attack mode, an underused concept in games at the time.

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Originally Posted by Fe 26

where he became more and more meaningless as he was softened for children.

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Sorry, but just because 10-year old you thought he was "edgy" doesn't mean he was softened up later down the road. If anything, your blue dud with 'tude was more generica XTREME bullshit that pandered to the youth. Design-wise Sonic's look has become more edgy, out there, graffiti-esque over that soft round "safe" set of proportions used in the original.

I liked that the sonic CD levels were all mostly designed so that you could rush through them or explore them. The other sonic titles were very much either/or for most levels.

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Originally Posted by Fe 26

I liked that the sonic CD levels were all mostly designed so that you could rush through them or explore them. The other sonic titles were very much either/or for most levels.

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Sonic 3 was also great when played either way. There was a fuck ton to explore, but they didn't sacrifice the appropriate flow to make speed play fun.

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Originally Posted by Hero

Sorry, but just because 10-year old you thought he was "edgy" doesn't mean he was softened up later down the road. If anything, your blue dud with 'tude was more generica XTREME bullshit that pandered to the youth. Design-wise Sonic's look has become more edgy, out there, graffiti-esque over that soft round "safe" set of proportions used in the original.

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hey, hey, hey, I was just asking a question!

did you miss this?

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Originally Posted by Fe 26

this was always my image of sonic. It is a pretty far cry from how he is portrayed in the DC titles.



lol at sonic teams horrid 90s ballads.

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By sonic CD, Sonic had a personality that was his own. I guess being EXTREME was a trend at the time, but sega was able to sell it pretty well with sonic.

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Originally Posted by Hero

Design-wise Sonic's look has become more edgy, out there, graffiti-esque over that soft round "safe" set of proportions used in the original.

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this is just wrong. You can not argue that the first image of sonic is pandering to kids and then argue that the newer design of sonic is NOT pandering to kids and is some how more edgy.

Did you miss the whole thing about rap music and everything around it becoming more popular in the past 15 years?

It is one thing to make a game and designing it around what is cool at the time. It is another to change it every few years to pander to a new group of people. Eventually the character becomes meaningless. So the Mickey mouse comparison holds. You can only change something so many times to make everyone happy before people stop respecting your offerings.

Sonic was kind of a leader in that whole extreme thing, as I saw it. Bart Simpson kind of kicked off the whole 'tude in youth marketing thing, but it didn't really blow up until after Sonic when everyone had to have a technicolored anthrophorphic animal who said "dude" every other word.

I can't really go back and watch the old cartoon. Some of it is pretty bad. I think they tried to sell a new catch phrase in everyone of the first ten episodes.

lol, "TIME TO SPEED KEED!" or whatever it was.

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Originally Posted by Frogacuda

Sonic was kind of a leader in that whole extreme thing, as I saw it. Bart Simpson kind of kicked off the whole 'tude in youth marketing thing, but it didn't really blow up until after Sonic when everyone had to have a technicolored anthrophorphic animal who said "dude" every other word.

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I think what Hero is getting at is how EXTREME SPORTS were already a subculture. There a lot of people doing the biking and skating stuff at the time He is implying that sega picked up on this, and based the character around it, hoping that kids would think he was cool because of it.

Which is kind of a wishy washy argument considering the speed elements came from one of the guys who came up with sonic being big into speed and cars. And the attitude coming from trying to assert sonic as having more personality than Mario.

I think the extremeness of sonic comes more from trying to make Sega look cool and alternative compared to Nintendo more than it comes from pandering to kids who like to jump garbage cans with their bike. A LOT of their advertising was based on the idea of making Nintendo look boring. Not so much "Hey kids we like being crazy too, just like you, buy our stuff."

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Originally Posted by Frogacuda

Sonic was kind of a leader in that whole extreme thing, as I saw it. Bart Simpson kind of kicked off the whole 'tude in youth marketing thing, but it didn't really blow up until after Sonic when everyone had to have a technicolored anthrophorphic animal who said "dude" every other word.

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Sonic's effect on platform game character design and gameplay was huge. For better or worse, without Sonic I don't think we would have had Bubsy, Jazz Jackrabbit, High Seas Havoc, Superfrog, Crash Bandicoot, Quik the Thunder Rabbit, Aero the Acro-Bat, Zero the Kamikaze Squirrel, Awesome Possum, Rocky Rodent, Mr. Nutz, Zool, etc..

yeah, I remember those days. Holy shit did a lot of people try to cash in on the whole cute animal platforming thing. It felt like everyone was trying to put out a cartoon animal game back then.

Was Rocket knight adventures before or after sonic because that was the only one I can remember really having a lot of quality in it?

It was after Sonic. I knew I was forgetting a big one.

what was sonics marketing like in japan? here they were all "AAAHAHANINTENDON'TSONICKILLSMARIOSBLASTPROCESSER!" but i kinda don't see them going that way over there.

Was Unleashed that bad? This actually looks pretty great aside from the Input This Sequence of Buttons For No Reason parts:

The whole human world aspect leaves me cold. It is like seeing sonic is someone else's game. It is like they inserted sonic standard gadgets into New York City.

I have to give the Mario games props for keeping the Mario world consistent. Sega can't manage to do that.

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Originally Posted by Fe 26

I have to give the Mario games props for keeping the Mario world consistent. Sega can't manage to do that.

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Sega made it to 1998 before they fucked it up. Nintendo couldn't even make it out of the 1980s, at least in the US.

What are you crying about? The flying cape?

I think he is referring to Subcon.

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Originally Posted by Low

Sonic is due for reinvention. The Adventure games were suitable at the time but they definitely shouldn't serve as the departure point for every console outing since. I wasn't a fan of Dark Chronicles but it was a thoughtful take on new designs and backdrops instead OK this time we'll do a Arabian sonic, Knight sonic, Werewolf Sonic, Anti-hero Shadow, and so on.

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It's SONIC. I'm not sure if I'm reading you right here, but do you want more depth in your Sonic story? What kind of rich backstory are you expecting from the series? Any story needs to be an excuse for Sonic to run fast and collect rings. Anything else is wasted time. It would be like Bowser turning out to be Mario's father. Nobody cares. Let me stomp goomba's and jump around.

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Originally Posted by NeoZeedeater

Sonic's effect on platform game character design and gameplay was huge. For better or worse, without Sonic I don't think we would have had Bubsy, Jazz Jackrabbit, High Seas Havoc, Superfrog, Crash Bandicoot, Quik the Thunder Rabbit, Aero the Acro-Bat, Zero the Kamikaze Squirrel, Awesome Possum, Rocky Rodent, Mr. Nutz, Zool, etc..

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Sonic really set the tone for 16-bit platformers in general. Until then they seemed like prettier 8-bit platformers, and after that, they all had to have rolling hills, physics, and 4-way exploration. Not that Sonic invented those, but like I said, it kind of set the tone and showed off something that the last generation of hardware could never do.

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Originally Posted by A Robot Bit Me

Was Unleashed that bad? This actually looks pretty great aside from the Input This Sequence of Buttons For No Reason parts:

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Depends on if you wanted to play a platform game or if you wanted to play F-Zero with a hedgehog.

Unleashed pushed too hard for speed to where it became this ridiculously linear racetrack where you're constantly going a million miles an hour, which isn't what Sonic was. Sonic was about trying to use the environment to keep your momentum up. The Adventure games actually got that right, but Unleashed is miles away from it. Also the werehog levels are the worst thing ever.

I think to fix Sonic, they need to bring back the roll as a critical mechanic in maintaining your speed, and also bring back the need to actually land jumps and keep your momentum up to reach new areas.

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Originally Posted by A Robot Bit Me

Was Unleashed that bad? This actually looks pretty great aside from the Input This Sequence of Buttons For No Reason parts:

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That looks really cool but it seems like you have very minimal control of the character most of the time along with all the timed button presses.

I'd prefer more control personally. I tend to play the Gamecube Sonic Adventure DX the most out of the lot but it kind of sucks that there hasn't been a good Sonic game after Sonic Adventure and to a degree Sonic Adventure 2.

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Originally Posted by A Robot Bit Me

Was Unleashed that bad? This actually looks pretty great aside from the Input This Sequence of Buttons For No Reason parts:

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That was certainly flashy. Doesn't look that fun, or anything like a Sonic game, but I'll grant it was certainly kinetic.

James

I remember liking that Sonic game for NGPC when I borrowed it from a friend a decade ago.
What's the consensus on that game?

Wow, Sonic Unleashed looks really good. I might have to pick that up.

I say that a lot.

http://gogameface.com/content/uploads/LucyFootball.jpg

Just don't.

Yeah except the werehog sections sucked a lot.

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Originally Posted by Drewbacca

It's SONIC. I'm not sure if I'm reading you right here, but do you want more depth in your Sonic story?

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Yeah, you're a bit off. Sega has set the tone for every current Sonic with a tech demo back in '98 and frankly, he was better off as a mute smart-ass in a pastel world. I didn't reference Dark Brotherhood for story, only for being a different take on the character and game world.

I just don't like the whole sonic in the human world thing. It just makes all previous games pointless.

All the 16 bit sonics had you saving his friends from robotnik. Robotnik wanted to change them all into robots and rule the world with the chaos emeralds.

Do you even save animals from being turned into robots in the newer games?

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Originally Posted by Fe 26

Do you even save animals from being turned into robots in the newer games?

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I think so. You did in the Adventure games anyway.

Also, Robotnik is a human. Sonic always lived in a world with humans. Your problem is just that the move to a more fully realized breaks the suspension of disbelief, which is not a problem limited to Sonic.

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Originally Posted by Fe 26

this is just wrong. You can not argue that the first image of sonic is pandering to kids and then argue that the newer design of sonic is NOT pandering to kids and is some how more edgy.

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I never said that Sonic of today is not pandering just like the Sonic of yesteryear. Just that there wasn't an edge that Sonic had on inception that was made softer over the years to appeal to children, as you so said.

And yes, kids these days want darker, edgier, more in-your-face 'tude at younger and younger ages than we did. Just like we were waaaay too wild compared to our previous generation. And what's so wrong with that? You act as if Sonic perpetually attempting to be hip to each generation of youth is somehow a sellout on his principles (ala Mickey Mouse). Since when did any grown man or woman need a blue hedgehog to grow up with them in order for it to remain legit/pure/whatever?

OT: I did a IGN guide for Sonic Unleashed. You'd be surprised how Sonic it is - lots of cheap deaths, hidden and multiple pathways to the goal, etc etc. The engine they ran it on did a real good job too. Not really a great Sonic game, but a great move up from the first 360/PS3 outing. Like in an effort to make the hedgehog/people thing work, people were designed Pixar style to be cartoony and not so serious business. Unlike the other's animu out the ass over-dramatic bullshit.

I still don't understand why anyone wants/needs a story in theri Sonic (or any videogame to be honest).

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Originally Posted by Hero

You act as if Sonic perpetually attempting to be hip to each generation of youth is somehow a sellout

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do you even know what a sell out is?

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Originally Posted by Frogacuda

I think so. You did in the Adventure games anyway.

Also, Robotnik is a human. Sonic always lived in a world with humans. Your problem is just that the move to a more fully realized breaks the suspension of disbelief, which is not a problem limited to Sonic.

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I don't think I really want a fully realized real world in sonic. I know the real world. I live in it. I enjoyed sonic because it had its own world. There was something exciting about playing a new sonic for the first time. I loved immersing myself in something new. Part of the fun of pushing yourself onward after you died was to see the new levels and exploring them.

I agree with Ironplant on the human world nonsense. The Sonic world was so much fantasy with big incompetent fantastic robots trying to kill animals. Bringing it in to a modern cityscape like New York, Chicago, LA, etc. doesn't work well. Go back to nature, or in the very least put Sonic in a futuristic Robotnik-invention inspired cityscape.

Sonic Unleashed sucked. The regular Sonic sections were fairly good for a racing spin-off (not a real platformer as has been mentioned) but the werehog and story parts were so bad I couldn't bring myself to finish the game.

I've never really liked the Sonic games. That whole combination of the game being designed around convincing people to go fast then fucking them over with surprise obstacles just ticked me off. But at least the 2D Sonic games were playable and decent (for a certain lowered concept of decent), unlike their 3D brethren. I actually thought that Sonic Adventure was decent, but Sega never ever went back to fix the problems in the design and instead just kept farting out games that played worse and worse.

As for the general state of platformers, I'd blame Sony and their three big teams moving on to Uncharted, Infamous, and the continual evolution of Ratchet & Clank away from platforming and towards third-person shooting. Here's hoping that Ubisoft's new Prince of Persia game turns out well, but I'm not getting too excited since it's a licensed game that was announced less than six months before the release date. I'm surprised nobody out there has tried making a really good 3D platformer this generation of consoles, since there's basically no (HD) competition and there's surely still a market for them.

Shame too, because i like the whole f-zero stupid fast tracks thing. I had high hopes that sonic unleashed would be my first sonic game since Dash.