Freelancers - HELP!

Here's the skinny:

Back in Dec. I started a project for my brother's boss' wife (figures, huh). Seemed easy enough - she wanted a design insert for these items she was to pitch and get on store shelves. I quoted her twice - once for all the items she talked about (2 logos, 5 designs) and again for just the logos and one design. She agreed to latter being on a tight budget. Understanding that I scaled down the contract - only one round of revisions, no alt designs. Clean and simple - keep in her budget while making it worth my time.

Fast forward and it's been stupid nuts. She's changed one logo at least 3 times, had more than that for the package. Only thing she's kept in check is the last logo - one revision and we were done. I've explained to her in e-mails and over the phone that she's gone past this, and I wanted to start charging the hour rate that kicks in when this happens. Her reasoning why I shouldn't? We were almost done, and she didn't feel she had her 'one revision' yet and was let down that I didn't "put my own spin on it" effectively doing the work twice.

So I felt a little sorry for her (and she's connected to my brother's job in a roundabout way) and believed her when she said all she needed were some final tweaks to make it perfect.

Get an email over the weekend saying that her 'marketing' friend took a look at it and said there was all this shit wrong with it and should be changed. So now she wants even more work done based on someone else's input. How do I tell her to fuck off (or that I'm charging extra) while being as polite and professional as possible? And how do I do it while being sure my brother doesn't catch blowback if she decides to get crazy on me?

Hmm. All you were obligated to do were the initial designs and revisions. You went above and beyond, sounds like! Tell her that you have a busy schedule, and unfortunately wouldn't be able do any further revisions without getting compensated, as it would eat into the time you're able to work on paying jobs.

After that, what's she gonna do, stab you?

Well if they're professional there shouldn't be any blowback onto your brother. I would just lay it out for her. I would tell her she's had her revisions, if she wants these changes then it's going to cost X, Y and Z to do this. If she's ok with that then you can move forward, otherwise you feel it's time this project has run its course. That you've done all that you could for the money you've been paid. Just remember that your time is valuable and worth something. You're a polite individual I'm sure you can type out an email that lays that out. You just have to let her know that your time is worth something, and holds a value. That you'd like to keep doing work for her but if you're going to move forward she's going to need to acknowledge that, and pay you the money you deserve. I would imagine you probably gave her a damn good deal, you could always remind her just how much it would have cost her to go through an agency.

I wanted to mention that too - where could I find estimates of other designers/agencies for the same work? I only have anecdotal evidence and places online want serious inquiries to quote - I don't want to waste their time just to prove my point.

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Originally Posted by YellerDog

After that, what's she gonna do, stab you?

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Well, she could refuse to pay what's left on the invoice (she paid a percentage upfront, the rest due on completion). At this point I'd say I'm willing to eat that cost, but it would also help cover the gallery costs.

Don't do any more work until you've been paid for what you've done, and tell her you'll give her an additional quote if she wants more work done after that.

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Originally Posted by Hero

Well, she could refuse to pay what's left on the invoice (she paid a percentage upfront, the rest due on completion). At this point I'd say I'm willing to eat that cost, but it would also help cover the gallery costs.

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Hold the phones, you haven't been paid (at least 50%) yet? That... sucks. Watch her try to hold your money hostage. Cigs is right, get paid.

Do not be polite. Be curt and explain to her you meant one revision. If she wanted her marketing friends eye on the project she should have managed to have him sit with her when she wrote up the revisions to you. The project scope has blown up and the project is no longer bringing you money, but costing you money. She is an opportunistic person. If she senses you are hesitant she will steam roll your ass. The biggest mistake you made was not nipping this thing in the bud and getting nothing up front.

Set payment terms. Always. 25% upon sign off of your quote. 25% upon delivery of first concept and the last 50% when the project is wrapped and delivered. You can put even more milestones in there if you feel comfortable. The only time I ever defer from this structure is if A) I'm throwing a softy for someone like that site i did for Mykozo and Josh awhile back or B) The client is a long term client that I am milking for work / partnering with for marketing. Nickel and diming them would be insulting to them. There is a certain level of professional respect companies like this get so long as they pay their bills on time.

Everyone is a marketing expert. If she wants the copy bigger and it ruins the design my personal stance is to tell her off. Every design I do is a representation of me. Half the time the client always has a "goal" they're trying to achieve with bad instructions. A client may ask you to change the red in your layout to green. Ask her why. She may say: Oh well the design isn't green friendly enough. Green is really big right now as a selling proposition. In that case you should explain to her that changing things to green just to say you're green has become very tacky. And find a better way to go about it. This is all, of course, assuming that changing the red to green is a bad idea. Sometimes clients request things that are reasonable and don't hurt the design.

EDIT: Nevermind it looks like you did get some coin up front. Just be firm. Get paid and then continue. My point still stands that she's opportunistic and will take as much as she can get from you. Give her no quarter.

Drew and Cigs have the answer here. Get the rest of your money and a contract for how much the additional work is going to cost. If she gets uppity about you wanting more money then you are better off getting this chick out of your hair.

I'm willing to bet she knows how much your time and work is worth. I guarantee you her marketing friend has already given her quotes of what local agencies would be charging her.

Put it out there and be firm, you are still gonna be a way better deal.

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Originally Posted by Hero

I wanted to mention that too - where could I find estimates of other designers/agencies for the same work? I only have anecdotal evidence and places online want serious inquiries to quote - I don't want to waste their time just to prove my point.

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Isn't this footwork she should/should have/probably has done? I don't see why you should spend a second of your time looking up prices for her.

I got the impression he wanted pricing for his own reference.

What Dyne said - I want to be able to prove she's already gotten a steal for the job, and the additional fees wouldn't come close to what another firm/freelancer would charge.

She should know going rates if she's in the market for what you're doing. Either way it sounds like she'll find out on her own soon enough.

Here's what I've got:

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Hi [Them],

I'm a little put off by these new changes. I didn't know we were having a third party bringing in new input and requests, meaning another stretch of revisions.

When we talked on the phone I was optimistic that we were at the finish line and didn't want to charge extra for the last changes. I knew your project was on a tight budget and was hopeful that we could reach a design that not only you were happy with, but would be an example of an honest day's work for an honest day's dollar.

There was never mention of having another party brought into the creative process, and her requests being applied to the job. This means unexpected additional work from someone who wasn't involved with the initial design process.

With this in mind I'd have to start charging the [monies]/hr for any work here on out. If that conflicts with what you have set aside for budget, then I'd like to receive the remaining payment owed of [monies] and I'll deliver all the files, as per our contract.

I want to see this to the end, but I'm already operating at a loss. For a comprehensive design of a package & 2 logos with multiple revisions would cost substantially more with anyone else. Not to mention they would charge twice as much for an hourly rate of all work outside a contract. Every additional change without additional compensation at this point only makes me 'worth' less to continue on.

I'll be available for the rest of the night if you need to contact or call.

Thanks,

Kevin

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Know I'm in the right, but still hella nervous. People have a way of being as nice as pie to you until you don't give them what they want...then it's Mr. Hyde out to make life a living hell.

Who cares if they turn in to a baby? Their reaction would then only be a distraction to you from your goals (getting paid / making bank). You have to look at this as an investment. You may have made a bad one with her, but you can't devalue yourself on the market just to get 200 dollars. Because you'll be chasing 200 dollars from everyone. And by the time you've got it in hand it will have been 30 days+ later. Less than 10 dollars a day for your paycheque. Can you live on less than 10 dollars a day comfortably? Your time would be better spent searching for new job leads.

Just because someone else may be willing to work for 20 dollars an hour to do this doesn't mean you are, or should be. Let them struggle to make ends meet while you spend your time on truly worthwhile investments in the form of clients willing to pay / listen to your design advice. One bad job leads to another bad job via bad marketing and business habits. A good one will do likewise.

Everyone is nervous in business until they go through the motions and experience it (as with anything). You're doing the right thing here by getting your ends. Also be certain she pays you before you send any artwork to her or a printer. it doesn't matter if her deadline is on Monday and it's Friday. She better get her ass to the bank Saturday or Friday before close and make it happen (printers won't be doing dick all over the weekend anyway unless you pay a steep premium! And judging by her shoe string budget there's no way this is happening).

Do not be the one chasing people for money. It's on THEM to keep the wheels greased (WITH CASH) not you. Special exceptions, again, being long term clients. In that case you always want to help them by paying something at the printers up front to keep things going (or if you're a broke ass nigga have them pay but give them notice so they don't run in to an unexpected expense they weren't expecting to pay right now).

So where did this end up Hero?

With him rolling over and taking it.

No, didn't roll over and take it. Although now they've been in limbo for the past few days "considering where to go next" - if I don't get paid what's owed, they don't get the files. If they ask for anything else without agreeing to the hourly rate, they can take a hike.

At least I got a percentage upfront, and I'm not about to waste anymore time on this.

They are fucked if they don't go through you. Not an ideal way to do business, but a client like this is a user anyway. They'll get work done from you, stiff you and then move on to the next sap they find they can screw. There is no shortage of guys with photoshop these days. The difference between them and you is professionalism and skill. Which is what you're doing by approaching your business properly.