TNL Fighting Game Debate Club

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Originally Posted by StriderKyo

EDIT: I should also say, I don't even dislike this game, I was there from the first SFII all the way through, I just don't think it's great to watch the poke spam and throw traps of high level play. If you can beat Daigo with a cheesy string of inescapable throws that doesn't strike me as flawless design. I'm not sure why they'd put all that effort into balancing the game but leave that in.

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It's interesting you say this because Sirlin did attempt to address Balrog's throw loop tactics in HDR.

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Originally Posted by Sirlin

After Balrog’s headbutt hold, he can do a mixup where he either walks under the opponent (to get on the other side) or not walk under and say on the same side. He can threaten to do a low roundhouse from either side, resulting in a knockdown. This part is fine. He can also do a low forward or low strong and then attempt another throw, resulting in a loop. This part is too abuseable.

As with Ken, it was a tough decision, but I think it’s more fun if Balrog gets to keep his mixup, yet loses the power of a repeatable loop. His low strong, throw, low strong, throw sequence could be done from literally so far away that some characters cannot counter throw. The change is that Balrog’s throw range is now shorter, and the first hit of the hold does less damage. The walk-under tricks still work, as do the throw tricks after whiffing a short dashing punch, but if you want to attempt a throw loop, you a) have to be close enough that your opponent might counterthrow and b) deal less damage when you successfully do it. Balrog’s relentless offense is so good that a slightly worse throw game should leave him plenty powerful.

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It would have been possible for Daigo to escape the throw loop, but since HDR was never released in Japan, he probably was unaware of this change.

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Originally Posted by Cowdisease

It would have been possible for Daigo to escape the throw loop, but since HDR was never released in Japan, he probably was unaware of this change.

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An awful lot of players weren't, because people were doing it throughout the tournament. It's good that it's not endless I guess, but all things being equal I'd rather they just let players fully tech throws. But I guess that's sacrilege to some.

My sentiments about ST/HDR pretty much line up with striders, I like the game but it feels old and limited. And the shit with throws is remarkably cheezy considering how much they do in this game, like what a third of life?

It would have been possible for diago to escape, because he was playing the same character. By the nature of that, he could have escaped in both hdr and ST the same way. The problem with ST/HDR, is the game randomly decides who wins the throw, so it could be diago guessed right on every iteration, but because of random chance lost out each time. They are VERY few endless loops in HDR, there were a few in ST.

Throws have to be the way they are to make them scary. The biggest hurdle to playing ST is you have to be able to do reversals, as that's the only way to beat throws. Throws are strong, but relatively speaking are not TOO powerful. Fireballs in ST are like gunshots, simple combos usually end rounds/dizzy. ST is less of a poke-fest than almost any other SF after that, because relatively speaking, they do low damage. CVS2, A3, SF4, and even tekken rely wayyy more on pokes than ST.

I love the throw system in ST, if it just gave the defender a 1f advantage on counter throws, I think it would be near perfect. I don't have to work my ass off to try and get you hit, if you let me put you in block stun, you are now in a scary situation, make a choice and hope it works out. It seems very simple and elegant. Everything after that panders to casual players, which is ok, but feels clunky to me. SF3 and SF4 are the worst offenders.

My bais is with GG of course, which uses the ST throw system, but added 4f of advantage to defenders on counter throwing.

solution: don't get thrown in st

People hating how much of an equalizer ultra/rage are but being fine with the damage output for simple shit like throwing is baffling to me. Not saying anthony advances that view point, but I have seen many do it before I just don't get it.

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. I don't have to work my ass off to try and get you hit, if you let me put you in block stun, you are now in a scary situation, make a choice and hope it works out. It seems very simple and elegant. Everything after that panders to casual players, which is ok, but feels clunky to me. SF3 and SF4 are the worst offenders.

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I don't really understand how making throws more difficult to land is pandering to casual players.

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Originally Posted by Rem

I don't really understand how making throws more difficult to land is pandering to casual players.

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look at it from the other side of the glass, making them easier to escape makes them almost worthless to use (especially with the gigantic escape windows in sf4, what with your fancy bullshit tech throw option select garbage)

also don't forget you can "soften" throws and mash out of grabs in ST to cut down damage considerably (assuming a throw won't kill you off, in which case you can't soften it anyway and it will finish the round)

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your fancy bullshit tech throw option select garbage)

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Doesn't crouch teching work in like every game with tech?

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also don't forget you can "soften" throws and mash out of grabs in ST to cut down damage considerably (assuming a throw won't kill you off, in which case you can't soften it anyway and it will finish the round)

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I don't really have any issue with that since it's the same in kof, throws just do like 2/3 less in that game.

I think there's a good reason why major fighters have evolved away from normal throw traps. Emphasizing non-command throws de-emphasizes all the rest of the fighting system which makes up the point of the game. I personally like how throw breaks have evolved in SF, to where you can land throws if your opponent guesses wrong but they're sidelined to keep the focus on the more interesting fighting (don't like how normal throws trump command throws though,, that seems like a weird decision to me).

I obviously didn't read all the commentary Sirlin was putting out when they made these decision, is the way HDR handles throw breaks a way to keep players on the offensive in a system without dashing and limited movement options, or just a nod to the old mechanics?

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Originally Posted by cka

look at it from the other side of the glass, making them easier to escape makes them almost worthless to use (especially with the gigantic escape windows in sf4, what with your fancy bullshit tech throw option select garbage)

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This is just hyperbole though, you know they get landed plenty. I mean these guys are as good as it gets and they still land throws on each other: