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Not really, you can't name a society in human history we know of that developed industry without law and law enforcement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drewbacca
You can however see societies that exist right now who have little or no industry at the levels where law enforcement doesn't exist.
So you're directly giving credit to law enforcement for all industrialized progress? I think it's getting comical how completely overstated you think their importance is. How about the United States? Most law enforcement was local people pitching in and not centrally run for a good portion of its development. You guys seem to have done well for yourself IIRC.
What is your argument? That businesses will get burnt to the ground without bowing down to police?
I kind of am.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drewbacca
Think back to the first development of significant agriculture, in every instance it's in a society that has law and consequence. In many cases they don't have police officers, but they have a military type equivalent or something tied to religion. In England if you stole from the King a knight just killed you. In ancient China if you stole from a vendor the prefect of your area would decide how to handle you. In Rome and Greece they had an army and city guard that enforced laws. Native Americans from tribes that farmed (and even tribes that mostly hunted) all had people in positions of power and warriors who would enforce tribal law; the five civilized tribes are the greatest example of this.
Law enforcement predates agricultural and technical advancement in almost all instances in our history and with good cause: without something telling you that you can keep what you grow or the money you make you have no reason to produce more than you will use or often to produce anything at all; most societies without significant law enforcement just end up being a subsistence based society. This is not something I made up or noticed myself, it's a longstanding sociological concept that's been observed time and time again.
No, never.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drewbacca
That being said, if all law enforcement in our country disappeared over night it wouldn't take very long for our society to digress rapidly. If that law enforcement had never been there in the first place there's just no way we'd be where we are today. The point is you should understand and respect that we only have the quality of life we have because laws have existed and there have been people to enforce them. The point has never been that all individual cops are righteous or worthy of praise.
Who's saying otherwise anyway? A larger police force on the street deters street crimes. So if someone was going to throw a brick through icarus' restaurant window they probably wouldn't if it was just an act of delinquent mischief. If icarus pissed someone off and they were intent on throwing the stone through his window it would still happen. Police have their place in society, but lets not fear monger and give them a blank cheque to ignore the everyday rights of individuals (or more), especially under the guise of necessity. It should be noted however that police do not stop murders or other types of non-street crime at all. Police also won't help you with this little problem:
The only thing they'll do for you is take a statement and keep an eye out. The best and most effective way to reduce murder (3% a year reduction), rape and robbery (2% a year reduction in instances) is to arm your populous with concealed guns (meaning limited to no gun control). But I don't want to get in to the whole gun debate again. I've done it enough this past year that people can go and find it if they want.Quote:
Originally Posted by Opaque
Also look at the police statistics of South African countries. I think you'd be surprised to find out how much they don't help. So much so PRIVATE police forces are needed to protect people from the police themselves. Mexico as well.
I had a guitar stolen from my room once. I found out who did it and demanded the guitar back. He said he wouldn't tell me what he did with it. So a friend and I broke his legs.
Instant justice - no cops necessary.
Basically, fine, keep the cops around, but I'm not playing.
I don't debate at all that additional police per capita often makes no difference, but that's not what we're talking about.
I am also capable of making a distinction between corrupt police and proper law enforcement, for the sake of this conversation you should as well.
I'm not sure I really want to know this, but how do you go about breaking someone's legs?
With a pipe.
I think the argument here is about that balance. Cops are cocksuckers but have their place. No one is saying differently. But they need to know their role just as much as the criminals do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Opaque
Femur or Tibia?Quote:
Originally Posted by icarusfall