Natural Childbirth

So it's mothers day and people are talking about all shit motherly. Well, on Facebook a girl I know just posted picture of her natural birth in her bathtub at home, there was nothing gross about the pictures and she didn't show anything but I suddenly realized that when she had the kid last week she two days later had to spend 5 days with him all hooked up to tons of machines in intensive care and she almost lost him.

If she had been at the hospital when he was born his problems with breathing could have been addressed then, instead of all the crazy shit happening.

Seems to me like home births are you just taking a risk for no fucking reason. People giving birth 100 years ago dreamed of hospitals, why the fuck do people not use them?

Opinions.

There is no quicker or easier way to make a shit ton of beef stew.

People who home birth are generally the same people that believe in herbal remedies and shit instead of medicine that has passed statistically significant scientific trials. It's one thing to opt out of the epidural if you can withstand the physical pain, but to not be near medical facilities in case of an emergency is stupid.

Besides, if a hospital took care of Opaque's mom after he came out hooves first, that's good enough proof for me.

I imagine most people with brains that decide to do a home birth would have a nurse or something around to supervise.

"I don't need a doctor, maaan, stop oppressing the natural order of things."

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Originally Posted by FirstBlood

I imagine most people with brains that decide to do a home birth would have a nurse or something around to supervise.

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She did not. I felt so bad for her last week when I saw all the pictures of them in the intensive care unit, but now I feel bad for the baby because it turns out he has an idiot for a mother.

The thing is, even if she had the nurse, they'd still be lacking tons of equipment which could save a child's life in case of emergency.

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Originally Posted by Yoshi

Besides, if a hospital took care of Opaque's mom after he came out hooves first, that's good enough proof for me.

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Horns first, actually. Objectively the worse way.

Natural selection imo. If the baby/mother died from a home birth neither of them deserved to live.

Life marches on.

I think as long as you've had regular checkups you'll be alright to do it at home. I imagine most major complications would be caught beforehand.

It is her choice.

If she wants to take that risk, it is her business.

Society doesn't owe the kid a life. The mother does. If she can't make good, that is 1 less half sequence of her DNA running around. She has to live with that and try to do better next time.

People care too much about other people's babies.

I think home birth is fine, but it's fucking moronic not to have a midwife present.
There's no need to clog up hospitals with women going through a normal biological process.

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Originally Posted by kedawa

There's no need to clog up hospitals with women going through a normal biological process.

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This is an interesting way to approach the use of hospitals.

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Originally Posted by Fe 26

People care too much about other people's babies.

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Speak for yourself. I, quite literally, could not care any less. Oh, you got knocked up and some shitty little fucker popped out... How amazing.

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Originally Posted by Opaque

This is an interesting way to approach the use of hospitals.

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To only use them when there's a medical problem?
I think it's just crazy enough to work.

The only thing I can relate to with people who prefer home birth is that it kind of takes the intimacy and magic out of moments that are supposed to be private and joyful. Hospitals are not really comfortable or friendly places. But I completely agree that all these people are pretty much fuckwits or selfish twats. Having a baby really isn't about your life experience anymore, jackasses. Look what you've done.

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Originally Posted by kedawa

To only use them when there's a medical problem?

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Most medical problems stem from "normal biological process" is all I'm saying.

I understand the distinction you're trying to make, but your phrasing encompasses things like cancer. So I was poking fun.

Fuck you. It's just cancer.

No need to clog up a hospital with it.

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Originally Posted by Opaque

Most medical problems stem from "normal biological process" is all I'm saying.

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I know. I'm saying any adult who truly is going to be responsible about parenting should be in a hospital.

Birth: This isn't about you anymore.

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Originally Posted by Cowutopia

I know. I'm saying any adult who truly is going to be responsible about parenting should be in a hospital.

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Who are you responding to?

Edited in the quote. Sorry. Page is updating in REAL TIME

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Originally Posted by Josh

Speak for yourself. I, quite literally, could not care any less. Oh, you got knocked up and some shitty little fucker popped out... How amazing.

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Josh, are you on the shit again? I was agreeing with you, you knob.

Your mother.

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Originally Posted by Cowutopia

Edited in the quote. Sorry. Page is updating in REAL TIME

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So Kedawa said something and I made a joke about it. After that you made a post which goes along with my beliefs then quoted something I posted earlier than your first post and continued to clarify your original point as if I had a counter argument to it, which I did not.

I don't think real time page updating is the problem here.

Probably the weed then.

Also, in actuality: I respond to threads before reading to the bottom. Then go back and fill in. Now you can understand me better!

That would actually explain it.

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Originally Posted by Cowutopia

Birth: This isn't about you anymore.

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sure it is. It is connected to the mother. Needs her to live. It is like an extra leg that has some of its own feelings.



People die in the streets from starvation because no one cares about them or notices them, but assholes will blow up abortion clinics because of babies. Not even real babies, but over the idea of dead babies. That the mixture of chemicals and fluids could have formed a baby, and now it won't.

You know what, fuck babies.

Babies are not magical stand alone things. They are the products of their parents. They have their parents DNA, and they are further shaped by their parents ability to raise them. They are not an awesome person that has been beamed into this world. If you think their parents are stupid, chances are, this baby you care so much about is also fucking stupid.

"what if you are killing the next beethoven"
no, you are killing the next "them." The parent that you are insulting for almost killing their kid because they are being stupid? It is another moron just like them.

Seriously, to hell with babies. The world is a better place because people abort them. Prenatal care and abortion is probably the largest driving force in lowering the crime rate in the US.

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Originally Posted by Fe 26

abortion is probably the largest driving force in lowering the crime rate in the US.

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Who knows if it's the driving force, but it's probably no coincidence that 16-20 years after abortion became legal we saw a huge drop in crime rates.

Poor people have the most abortions, poverty is the leading cause of crime. You don't need a masters in sociology to figure out the connection.

Darwinism at work.

I'M SORRY I KNOW YOU'RE BLEEDING OUT BUT WE JUST HAVE TOO MANY PREGNANT WOMEN IN THE MATERNITY WARD TO HELP YOU

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Originally Posted by Fe 26

You know what, fuck babies.

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it's not as easy as you might think.

It's easy with a car jack.

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Originally Posted by Josh

Natural selection imo. If the baby/mother died from a home birth neither of them deserved to live.

Life marches on.

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Except when the kid doesn't die, they just get brain damage because they choke and have to be constantly supervised all their life because they can't function higher than a 5 year old.

The answer to that is natural euthanasia.

Eww. - to this thread and the whole idea of childbirth.

You're built for baby making, bro.

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Originally Posted by Opaque

Natural childbirth

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I'm never having kids but hahahahahhahahahaahahhahahaha no.

and this is why the world is full of stupid women. The smart ones don't reproduce.

well, willingly

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Originally Posted by Fe 26

and this is why the world is full of stupid women. The smart ones don't reproduce.

well, willingly

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Not with you anyway.

you wound me, sir.

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Originally Posted by Fe 26

and this is why the world is full of stupid women. The smart ones don't reproduce.

well, willingly

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I'm going to make a screenshot compilation of all of Buttplants horrible attempts at flirting or complimenting girl posters on TNL

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Originally Posted by Fe 26

and this is why the world is full of stupid women. The smart ones don't reproduce.

well, willingly

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Wouldn't that make the world full of stupid men too? After you're done learning English, go for the birds and the bees next.

No. That wouldn't have to result in stupid men. I could explain why, but that would kind of kill the mean spirited joke.

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Originally Posted by dave is ok

I'm going to make a screenshot compilation of all of Buttplants horrible attempts at flirting or complimenting girl posters on TNL

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If you really consider that flirting, I think it says more of you.

"oh no, IP is speaking to things with vagina's and not being a hard nigga. How pathetic."

If you want to bark up that tree, go watch razor.

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Originally Posted by Fe 26

"oh no, IP is speaking to things with vagina's and not being a hard nigga. How pathetic."

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Well, yeah.

My son was born at home, but I'm a dirty ass hippie so whatever. Hospitals are for medical emergencies where people are sick or dying, and birth is not a medical emergency. They might have your best interest at heart, but hospitals want your money, they want you in and they want you out as quick as possible. Don't make any noise, don't ask any questions, and don't you dare make any demands about the care of your newborn kid. FUCK THAT.

I don't remember exactly what the numbers are, but the usa has the highest rate of hospital births / unnecessary medical intervention and the highest infant/maternal mortality rate of first world countries. Honestly, I put way more trust and faith in a 65 year old black woman with giant tits that has delivered a couple hundred babies every year for the last 20 years and never lost a baby, than I do in a doctor who wants to induce labor at 10:00 so he can make it to his 12:30 tee time. FUCK THAT.

No the ER is for medical emergencies. Hospitals are for complicated medical procedures that require large, industrial equipment and trained professionals on hand to assist. All in one convenient location! (that's why they... you know... were created in the first place)

I'm glad you place so much needless guilt on yourself that you feel bad even going to them, though. Less wait times for me!

Maybe in Canada.

Well considering childbirth isn't a complicated medical procedure that requires large, industrial equipment and trained professionals on hand to assist, you're totally wrong. I'm glad you place so much faith in overworked hospital staff who hate their jobs, to deliver your children without drugs, forceps, vacuums and whatever horrendous shit they "need" to use. Women have been cranking out babies forever, why all of a sudden is it a medical emergency that requires INDUSTRIAL EQUIPMENT?

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Originally Posted by Jed

Hospitals are for medical emergencies where people are sick or dying, and birth is not a medical emergency. They might have your best interest at heart, but hospitals want your money, they want you in and they want you out as quick as possible.

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I agree with this. There isn't anything inherently complicated with childbirth as long as it goes how it's supposed to. But there defintely should be a GODDAMN PERSON WITH EXPERIENCE AND MEDICAL TRAINING PRESENT WHEN THIS GODDAMN MIRACLE GOES DOWN. Just because humans have been giving birth since forever doesn't mean you can just waltz into a bathtub and pop one out without knowning a thing or seven about it. And even if the woman who Opaque described in his post had been at a hospital it doesn't mean that those problems could have been avoided.

That being said, there isn't any reason to hate on mothers who want to put the lives of their children in the hands of a pro.

Probably something to do with mother and newborn mortality rates. Probably.

Also: c-sections are what's up.

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Originally Posted by Rhydant

I agree with this. There isn't anything inherently complicated with childbirth as long as it goes how it's supposed to. But there defintely should be a GODDAMN PERSON WITH EXPERIENCE AND MEDICAL TRAINING PRESENT WHEN THIS GODDAMN MIRACLE GOES DOWN. Just because humans have been giving birth since forever doesn't mean you can just waltz into a bathtub and pop one out without knowning a thing or seven about it. And even if the woman who Opaque described in his post had been at a hospital it doesn't mean that those problems could have been avoided.

That being said, there isn't any reason to hate on mothers who want to put the lives of their children in the hands of a pro.

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Well absolutely, and the people we had on hand were definitely pros and knew what the fuck they were doing. We had two midwives who had a combined FORTY years of experience between the two of them, and had delivered hundreds of babies with no problems at all. When they came into the house, they had oxygen tanks, heart monitors, difibrillator's, the whole shebang. It's not like I was sitting on my couch taking bong rips and decided "OK honey, lets squeeze him out now!" I never once had any doubts about their ability to deliver my son safely, they were straight up professionals and did an AMAZING job.

The only issue I can possibly have with the reliance on hospitals for childbirth is the increasing circumstance of hospital induced labor. This is leading to a higher rate of preterm births simply because lots of new moms want the baby to run on her schedule. Childbirth is expensive but any level-headed couple with the resources to expend wouldn't really argue with the security and benefits of a hospital birth. It's the abuse of resources that lead to these preterm births that I take issue with. It's your child, let him come out at his own pace, it's like you're signing him up for little league and structuring his life before the kid's even born.

Yeah, scheduled inductions are bullshit. My wife's doctor said that her amniotic fluid levels were low and that we should induce about a week early. We went along with it, since there appeared to be a medical reason, but our daughter didn't. She finally decided to show up a day and a half later, much to my wife's chagrin.

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Originally Posted by Jed

My son was born at home, but I'm a dirty ass hippie so whatever. Hospitals are for medical emergencies where people are sick or dying, and birth is not a medical emergency. They might have your best interest at heart, but hospitals want your money, they want you in and they want you out as quick as possible. Don't make any noise, don't ask any questions, and don't you dare make any demands about the care of your newborn kid. FUCK THAT.

I don't remember exactly what the numbers are, but the usa has the highest rate of hospital births / unnecessary medical intervention and the highest infant/maternal mortality rate of first world countries. Honestly, I put way more trust and faith in a 65 year old black woman with giant tits that has delivered a couple hundred babies every year for the last 20 years and never lost a baby, than I do in a doctor who wants to induce labor at 10:00 so he can make it to his 12:30 tee time. FUCK THAT.

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Hospitals are indeed most importantly for people who are sick and dying. They are also for not unnecessarily risking the wellbeing of your wife or newborn child out of a desire to preserve some valueless vestige of a bygone era. You were well prepared but there are a lot of things that can suddenly go wrong during a birth which, without the people and resources of a hospital present, would have resulted in your wife or child's death. You talk about how women have been cranking out babies forever while ignoring how tragically common it was to lose the mother and/or child until very recently in human history. It's certainly not my place to tell you where/how to pop out a little Jed, but let's not act like the justifications extend beyond saving some dough and giving the finger to the system.

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Originally Posted by Uriel

saving some dough and giving the finger to the system.

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This is a perfectly acceptable reason to do pretty much anything.

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Originally Posted by Rhydant

And even if the woman who Opaque described in his post had been at a hospital it doesn't mean that those problems could have been avoided.

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They would have been noticed and addressed earlier. Her kid was hours away from dying from a complication that would have been taken care of within minutes of birth had they been at a good hospital.

I don't think you know the girl, I knew her in sixth grade, but I'll show you here on facebook sometime this week. Maybe you'll remember her.

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Originally Posted by Rhydant

That being said, there isn't any reason to hate on mothers who want to put the lives of their children in the hands of a pro.

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We spent 10 million years leading up to the point where people with knowledge, training and technology can give you the safest child birth possible, damn right no one should hate on women who take advantage of that.

Go to the hospital for the epidural. Your wife should be high as fuck while pushing a little monster from her vagina

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Originally Posted by Uriel

Hospitals are indeed most importantly for people who are sick and dying. They are also for not unnecessarily risking the wellbeing of your wife or newborn child out of a desire to preserve some valueless vestige of a bygone era. You were well prepared but there are a lot of things that can suddenly go wrong during a birth which, without the people and resources of a hospital present, would have resulted in your wife or child's death. You talk about how women have been cranking out babies forever while ignoring how tragically common it was to lose the mother and/or child until very recently in human history. It's certainly not my place to tell you where/how to pop out a little Jed, but let's not act like the justifications extend beyond saving some dough and giving the finger to the system.

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Well, i find it laughable that anyone would think saving some dough and giving the finger to the man is a good reason to have a home birth, certainly not why we did it. But if you think your wife or child is any safer because they're in a hospital you're sadly wrong. Doctors and nurses fuck up ALL THE TIME. You'd think that if your kids are being born at Cedars Sinai Hospital they're getting the BEST care in the world right? Dennis Quaid's twins nearly died after staff at Cedars Sinai gave both babies a HUGE overdose of blood thinner. They were supposed to get 10ml of Herapin, and received 10,000ml instead. That's not just a tiny little oversight. That is a huge fuckup of monumental proportions and in one of the most prestigious hospitals in the country. Hospitals are not foolproof, they give the wrong medicines, the wrong dosages, hell they even send some people home with the wrong fucking babies!

If you've bought into the belief that you are way safer at the hospital than you are at home, you need to do some research. You are no more safe at hospital than you are at home. Period.

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Originally Posted by Josh

This is a perfectly acceptable reason to do pretty much anything.

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Including unprotected sex.

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Originally Posted by Uriel

Including unprotected sex.

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This ever needed justification?

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Originally Posted by Jed

They were supposed to get 10ml of Herapin, and received 10,000ml instead.

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I didn't realize it was possible to inject 10 litres of fluid into a baby.

That's what they all say.

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Originally Posted by YellerDog

Probably something to do with mother and newborn mortality rates. Probably.

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That's just it. Look at the progress we've made. Your great grandparents would have loved a nice clean hospital to birth their child instead of spoiling their only bed. Jed himself is painting a pretty bleak picture about Doctors when arguing for it. Hey, if you want to do it that's fine. But don't demonize hospitals. Everyone is going to the hospital therefore it must be common and bad. This completely has to do more with snobbery and counter culturalism than anything else. My child will never ever be "common" so we must birth it in a bathtub. And then tell our friends and post photos about how progressive we are. HE'S A FUCKING BABY. People don't have a recollection of their birth. Your mind isn't developed enough yet.

People can tell me how child birth is so fucking easy all they want but I don't believe all of this trendy birth fashion dogma going on lately. This attitude gives credence to things like dolphin birth schools. If something goes wrong you want the equipment and right people there with you. This is not a small event taking place in your life.

Also, if you duncecaps can't find some factual way to refute this:

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Originally Posted by Jed

but the usa has the highest rate of hospital births / unnecessary medical intervention and the highest infant/maternal mortality rate of first world countries.

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Then Jed won this thread a long time ago.

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Originally Posted by Jed

They were supposed to get 10ml of Herapin, and received 10,000ml instead. That's not just a tiny little oversight.

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Or possible!

That's twice as much fluid as an adult human has blood. Since water is 1kg/L it's also roughly 22 pounds of fluid, more than twice what a baby weights. Also, Herapin costs $640 per ml and I doubt they keep twelve million eight hundred thousand dollars of it around to accidentally inject into twins.

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Originally Posted by PaCrappa

Also, if you duncecaps can't find some factual way to refute this:

Then Jed won this thread a long time ago.

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We're 33rd in infant mortality rates in the world when rated per capita. That means 162 countries have higher infant mortality rates than us.

Almost all of the countries with fewer death rates have socialized medicine, which implies that access to things like hospitals leads to lower death rates. I mean, that's just a way to logically approach the real statistics that are out there. Jed thinks a hospital pumped 22 pounds of fluid into a baby, though, so I doubt he's doing that.

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Originally Posted by PaCrappa

Also, if you duncecaps can't find some factual way to refute this then Jed won this thread a long time ago.

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I don't see how it's relevant. You'd have to look back when everyone was having "natural child births" vs. the mortality rate since people have been going to the hospitals. People being generally shittier in the US could be a US trend across the board going back throughout history. Oh look! It's still trending downward. Going even further back the case is pretty clear. Again I don't have a problem with him choosing the way he has his child. Just don't sit there and talk shit about all of the doctors doing good work in hospitals around the country as if they're idiots. This has more to do with counter culture trends then anything else.

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Originally Posted by PaCrappa

Also, if you duncecaps can't find some factual way to refute this:



Then Jed won this thread a long time ago.

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You're pretty arrogant for a guy who is so completely off the mark. The discussion here is about whether or not a home birth is a sensible decision relative to a birth in a hospital. The only statistic that matters is the safety of a home birth vs. the safety of a hospital birth. If America had the highest rates of in-hospital infant/maternal deaths in the entire world, it wouldn't matter here so long as it's meaningfully safer than a home birth.

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Originally Posted by Drewbacca

Just don't sit there and talk shit about all of the doctors doing good work in hospitals around the country as if they're idiots.

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Seriously.

The woman who delivered my sister had something like three decades of experience and a PhD. I appreciate that the midwives out there have skill and all, but it's hard to say that less experience and less education could ever be better than more experience and more education. Comparable, is at best, the nicest thing you could logically say about them. Or to say it cleaner: if you had the option between a midwife with 20 years of experience or one with 30 years of experience and a PhD which would you choose?

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Originally Posted by Uriel

You're pretty arrogant for a guy who is so completely off the mark. The discussion here is about whether or not a home birth is a sensible decision relative to a birth in a hospital. The only statistic that matters is the safety of a home birth vs. the safety of a hospital birth. If America had the highest rates of in-hospital infant/maternal deaths in the entire world, it wouldn't matter here so long as it's meaningfully safer than a home birth.

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Speak of the devil:

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Less medical intervention during planned home birth is associated with a tripling of the neonatal mortality rate vs planned hospital birth, according to the results of a systematic review and meta-analysis reported online first July 1 and will appear in the September 10 print issue of the American Journal of Obstetrics & Gynecology.

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The study if anyone wants to read it: http://www.ajog.org/article/S0002-93...671-X/abstract

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Originally Posted by ugh, Fox News

Langberg said three patients on Sunday each received vials containing 10,000 units per milliliter of heparin, a blood thinner, instead of vials with a concentration of 10 units per milliliter.

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Can you at least research your stupid facts you plucked randomly off of Wikipedia to justify your shitty parenting? This is exactly why you shouldn't be allowed to home-school your children.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,312357,00.html

If the baby dies, just make another. It's not like it had a personality or anything.

Straight up.

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Originally Posted by PaCrappa

Also, if you duncecaps can't find some factual way to refute this:

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what is there to refute? What are we suppose to do, find records of how many babies die in the jungle every year?

Of course we have high rates. We're probably one of a few countries that records a ton of information on births. If the bulk of a country's births are not in a hospital, they probably don't take the time to record them either.

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Originally Posted by Fe 26

what is there to refute? What are we suppose to do, find records of how many babies die in the jungle every year.

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Or we could compare American death rates between hospital births and at home births. Like I did.

Get out of here before you ruin the awesome momentum our side has built.

Let me know when they hand out the candy for winning the internet argument


My point was that you shouldn't even have to look shit up. It should be common sense on why the US might appear to have high infant mortality rates in hospitals.

How so?

You just qualified mortality rates in hospitals, which is ranked per capita which means a level playing field for all countries. Why would the death of infants born in the jungle effect the rankings of hospital birth rates? I can see where you're trying to go with this, but you're hurting us more than you're helping us when you argue it completely wrong.

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Originally Posted by Opaque

Or possible!

That's twice as much fluid as an adult human has blood. Since water is 1kg/L it's also roughly 22 pounds of fluid, more than twice what a baby weights. Also, Herapin costs $640 per ml and I doubt they keep twelve million eight hundred thousand dollars of it around to accidentally inject into twins.

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It's amazing to me that you somehow looked up how much the drug costs without learning to spell it.

Obviously misspelling it once after looking it up would have retroactively effected my ability to find that information.

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Originally Posted by Opaque

How so?

You just qualified mortality rates in hospitals, which is ranked per capita which means a level playing field for all countries. Why would the death of infants born in the jungle effect the rankings of hospital birth rates?

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It wouldn't. Which is the point.

He's all "OMG ALL THESE BABIES ARE DYING IN HOSTILES"

Does the mortality rates of hospitals really matter? Are there any industrialized nations that have mainly non hospital births AND keeps records of them with the same precision that a country like the US does?

Really, what his basis of comparison? He doesn't have one. There isn't a nation as wealthy as the US that has the same sample size of birth, except non hospital to compare against.

It's like "OMG SO MANY BABIES DIE IN HOSPITALS" well no shit, thats where all the damn babies are born. Of course there are more birth deaths there. Babies sometimes die during birth, and that is where most of the babies are born, so logically, that would be where a lot of birth deaths accrue.

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Originally Posted by Opaque

Or we could compare American death rates between hospital births and at home births. Like I did.

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The question there is whether the study makes the distinction between deliberate home births and stuff like fat trailer trash that shit out babies without even knowing they're pregnant, or weird religious groups that have other factors stacked against them to begin with.
Statistics are rarely used in an honest manner.

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Originally Posted by Fe 26

It wouldn't. Which is the point.

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I don't think you processed what he said, so I'll quote it:

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but the usa has the highest rate of hospital births / unnecessary medical intervention and the highest infant/maternal mortality rate of first world countries.

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He was comparing infant mortality rates in America to other first world countries.

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Really, what his basis of comparison? He doesn't have one.

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Which is probably why he never made one. At least not about the thing you are discussing.

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He's all "OMG ALL THESE BABIES ARE DYING IN HOSTILES"

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I laughed out loud when I read this. Pretty awesome time for a misspelling.

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Does the mortality rates of hospitals really matter?

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When discussing whether or not to have a hospital birth or a home birth, yes it does.

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Are there any industrialized nations that have mainly non hospital births AND keeps records of them with the same precision that a country like the US does?

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See, THIS is what really doesn't matter. At least in the context of this discussion.

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There isn't a nation as wealthy as the US that has the same sample size of birth, except non hospital to compare against.

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You have no idea what per capita means, do you? We are ranked 33rd in the world for hospital deaths rates when ranked by deaths per thousand births, that negates things like smaller or larger sample sizes between countries. The real issue here is that the death rates in hospitals in America, no matter how high they are compared to the rest of the world, are still one third the size of death rates for home births in America. If there were 10% deaths in hospitals in our country but 30% deaths in home births it wouldn't matter where we ranked internationally, all that would matter is that you have a 20% increased chance to lose your child if you have a home birth.

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It's like "OMG SO MANY BABIES DIE IN HOSPTIALS" well no shit, thats where all the damn babies are born. Of course there are more birth deaths there.

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Yeah, but they only rank our hospital death rates vs other countries hospital deaths rates. If Japan had 2000 kids born in hospitals and 8 died they only have a 4/1000 death rate for infants born in a hospital. We have a 6/1000 rate, the fact that our population is larger has no effect on those numbers. Also, we beat the third world countries you're describing even though we are only comparing ourselves against their hospital births. Yeah, Kenya's infant deaths rates might be higher if we also had a way to count their non hospital births but we can't be any more 33rd just because other countries already below us get worse.

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Originally Posted by kedawa

The question there is whether the study makes the distinction between deliberate home births and stuff like fat trailer trash that shit out babies without even knowing they're pregnant, or weird religious groups that have other factors stacked against them to begin with.

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The study isn't fun to read so I'm not blaming you for not, but this is from it:

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Of concern, this investigation identified a doubling and tripling of the neonatal mortality rate overall and among nonanomalous offspring, respectively, in planned home compared to planned hospital births.

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They specifically compared planned births.

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Originally Posted by kedawa

Statistics are rarely used in an honest manner.

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Ain't that the truth.

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Originally Posted by Opaque

stuff

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well, if that is the point he is trying to make, why make it?

How does trying to argue that as a country, our birth mortality rate is high or whatever compared to other countries translate into birthing at home is awesome?

He isn't proving all hospitals are bad at it. If anything, he is proving that some are pretty good. So why not find the best in the US, one that has comparable success rates to hospitals in the other countries that he thinks does better?


His comment seemed like a scare tactic in the context of his post. "Hey look this big number!" It doesn't prove that all hospitals in the US have bad success rates nor does it have anything to do with his counter point that home births are some how safer.

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Originally Posted by Fe 26

well, if that is the point he is trying to make, why make it?

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HE shouldn't have. That's the point Uriel made and the study I found pounded it in. Comparing our hospital death rates to other countries is pointless, only comparing hospital birth death rates in our country to home birth death rates in our country has any merit in this discussion.

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How does trying to argue that as a country, our birth mortality rate is high or whatever compared to other countries translate into birthing at home is awesome?

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It doesn't. Now you get it.

If it doesn't prove it, why bother coming up with shit to disprove it? It didn't even kind of prove it.

We were just shutting him and PaCrappa up.

That's how debate and TNL works.

Bananas

Your mom likes bananas.

The funny thing is, I guarantee that most of you don't even have children, so taking such a hard ass stance on an issue that has no effect on you whatsoever is downright hilarious.

I never demonized doctors or hospitals, and I sure as hell never implied that I was a better parent and flaunting it in peoples faces. Thats just silly. I don't care where you have your kid, if YOU are doing what you feel is right for your kid then have at it. People seem to think that since we chose a different way to have our kid, that we're holier than thou and look down on people that have hospital births. Such bullshit. We caught so much shit from EVERYONE in our family, painting all these horror stories of shit that was going to go wrong, and how we were bad parents. I just don't believe that birth is the horrific fucking medical emergency that the medical world has convinced people that it is. IT IS NOT A MEDICAL EMERGENCY.

The simple fact of the matter is, if your wife/girlfriend/whatever is young and perfectly healthy and there are no complications with her pregnancy, there is absolutely no reason why she isn't perfectly capable of having a natural childbirth.

This thread is so stupid

I take it that your vanity makes you adore it.

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Originally Posted by Jed

I just don't believe that birth is the horrific fucking medical emergency that the medical world has convinced people that it is.

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They did? Pretty sure they just convinced everyone it's a sterile environment with people and resources designed to handle the situation.

You're right in that anyone (barring known complications) should be able to have a natural childbirth, but saying that it's some sudden thing to have cropped up as a medical emergency is just silly and narrow-minded. We also used to live in caves and mud huts for forever, but our current housing situation is still a million times better for avoiding and suppressing diseases and ailments.

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The funny thing is, I guarantee that most of you don't even have children, so taking such a hard ass stance on an issue that has no effect on you whatsoever is downright hilarious.

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It's true, we're all test-tube babies. None of us were born.

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Originally Posted by Jed

The simple fact of the matter is, if your wife/girlfriend/whatever is young and perfectly healthy and there are no complications with her pregnancy, there is absolutely no reason why she isn't perfectly capable of having a natural childbirth.

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There are statistics which show this to be a false statement. Which is kind of the whole point of everything we've been saying.

When did hospitals become for medical emergencies only?

Show me these statistics that explicitly state a perfectly healthy woman with ZERO complications is not perfectly capable of natural childbirth.

The one where three times as many children die at home births as hospital births with all other things considered in the statistical breakdown.

I posted, literally, the entire research paper. I'm not going to teach you how to read it too.

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Originally Posted by bbobb

When did hospitals become for medical emergencies only?

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Time was you could book a room in a hospital for exhaustion or any other damn thing in advance, like a hotel. For the purposes of wearing a robe around and hitting on nurses in the country.

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Originally Posted by Jed

The funny thing is, I guarantee that most of you don't even have children, so taking such a hard ass stance on an issue that has no effect on you whatsoever is downright hilarious.

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No but we have brains and facts. More important.

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Originally Posted by Jed

I never demonized doctors or hospitals, and I sure as hell never implied that I was a better parent and flaunting it in peoples faces. Thats just silly. I don't care where you have your kid, if YOU are doing what you feel is right for your kid then have at it. People seem to think that since we chose a different way to have our kid, that we're holier than thou and look down on people that have hospital births. Such bullshit. We caught so much shit from EVERYONE in our family, painting all these horror stories of shit that was going to go wrong, and how we were bad parents. I just don't believe that birth is the horrific fucking medical emergency that the medical world has convinced people that it is. IT IS NOT A MEDICAL EMERGENCY.

The simple fact of the matter is, if your wife/girlfriend/whatever is young and perfectly healthy and there are no complications with her pregnancy, there is absolutely no reason why she isn't perfectly capable of having a natural childbirth.

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You absolutely did paint the picture of hospitals as a dire sess pit of practical medicine and doctors as overworked, uncaring beasts who would just as soon yank the baby out with a plunger then deliver it properly with tons of care.