A question for freelance artist and graphic designers

I asked this in the gear thread, but this is probably a better place for it.

Is it rude of me to ask for all of the work files in regards to work done by a graphic designer that I have commissioned work from?

I got a guy helping me and he always sends me stuff in pdf. And I'd like to have all the files. And i'm paying him. Is it rude to just ask? I kind of need them for practical reasons. Like to make sure there are multiple back ups. Or making sure I have something i can convert to muliple formats depending on who I send things off to.

My experience is limited, but when doing design work the employer owns everything I do. I would assume that is the case for graphic design too. But I could be wrong.

EDIT: I just sent him an email, and he ignored my request for the files. And talked about everything but that request.


I don't think he understands that I need them to make slight alterations depending on how I print this stuff up. Or maybe he is hoping I will pay him every time I need a slight change =/

I don't know why that would even be a problem unless he's saving directly to .pdf.

He might get bitchy about it if the original files weren't part of the original agreement, dudes/ladies sometimes like to hide their file trickery to secure future employment. (Oh you need another in the same template? Pay me.)

He doesn't want you altering his precious work of art.

From what I understand from some Graphic design friends, (and maybe some one like Drew or Hero, or Finch, or the other folks who do GD work can correct some of it) your hiring them to give you a final product, you're not paying for their files. A few of them said that when folks they're doing work for ask for the files used to make it there's usually a fee that goes along side that. One dude said he'll charge like 75% of what the job original cost just for the files. So it's something you'll have to work out with the dude doing the stuff for you, but I wouldn't expect for you to get them for free, plan on paying the guy something.

I'm a communist pinko when it comes to things like that. If i already worked on it for you, then you can do whatever you want with whatever files i created. i am not particularly successful at making money

You can try just opening the pdfs in illustrator, see if you can edit them. The vectors should all be there.

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Originally Posted by Shin Johnpv

From what I understand from some Graphic design friends, (and maybe some one like Drew or Hero, or Finch, or the other folks who do GD work can correct some of it) your hiring them to give you a final product, you're not paying for their files.

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Did they give a justification for feeling this way? I can't say I understand it.

other than in terms of greed, but I don't want to assume greed or malice


I'll describe my current delima. I have a design for front faceplate. The people making up the latex print (think car decals and stripes) charge per print, not by size. The graphic designer has given me the design one time on one sheet of 8x11. I could get 6 x the graphics on one sheet, and still pay the same amount for the print and the material IF I have a file with 6 of these faceplate design on one sheet. I don't want to pay someone to go in and put six of these completed drawings on one sheet. I figure even I could do such a thing in 20 minutes with google.

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Originally Posted by FirstBlood

You can try just opening the pdfs in illustrator, see if you can edit them. The vectors should all be there.

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I'll try this.

Maybe he didn't answer my question because it seemed stupid to someone with a lot of experience with illustrator.

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Originally Posted by Fe 26

Did they give a justification for feeling this way? I can't say I understand it.

other than in terms of greed, but I don't want to assume greed or malice

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It's not malice or greed. 1. You're paying for a final product. You're not paying for their plans, or the materials or parts, you're paying for a final product. If you want it set up with 6 of them on one sheet then state that in the initial contract. 2. They're protecting themselves. I had a few friends express stories of handing over files with the people they gave it to claiming there would be more work in the future. Then they find out that those people just hired a shittier GDer who charged less and gave my friends files to them to work from. So by giving them that they just lost money and work. There's nothing greedy about that, as a freelancer you never know where the next job or paycheck is going to come from and losing one to some one else sucks ass. Specially when that person is just building off your work.

It's no different than if you were making and selling guitar amps. If I said to you, hey I like this amp you sold me, can you give me the schematics, and instructions on how to make it so that I can then get my friend to do it for 1/5th the price. That would be pretty shitty for you. It's the same with most anything else. I freelance for a place that does a couple famous character based commercials, and those companies just get the final rendered commercial. They don't get the character model, or the rigs, or the animation files, or the texture maps or any of that stuff.

That's just my take on it, being a freelancer for another art medium, and what graphic designer friends have told me.

Your take is the correct one Shin. That is how this shit goes unless you are dealing with an amateur (Not trying to call Finch an amateur, everyone is free to handle their business how they see fit, I'm just talking about a general industry standard). Unless you specified that you expected all the files at the end of the deal, and that was part of the agreed price, then you already got what you paid for. Expect a good sized price tag for all the files, because that is basically selling any chance of future work with the client.

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Originally Posted by Shin Johnpv

It's no different than if you were making and selling guitar amps. If I said to you, hey I like this amp you sold me, can you give me the schematics, and instructions on how to make it so that I can then get my friend to do it for 1/5th the price. That would be pretty shitty for you.

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that is actually how it works in all engineering. No one pays just for a finished product. They pay for everything.

If I go work at fender and they pay me to design an amp, they own everything. They get the schematic, art, bill of materials, PCB layout, testing information, everything. If I then leave Fender, all of that material will be accessible to the people after me and I will not get paid for any of their work.

This is generally how all engineering works. Ford owns all of the work of their engineers. If one of them leaves to work at Ducati, he does not get any money for the work he did at Ford. He will not even receive money from patents that were filed jointly between him and his previous employer.

With guitar amps, even if you contract only production and not the design, it is common to send along documentation that could be used to copy said amplifier. In fact, it is kind of frowned upon in the amplifier world to NOT make your schematics available for repair work. Its a good way to get called a cork sniffing faggot. Before the mid 80s it was common to package this kind of documentation with electronics. If you ever look inside an old radio, you should see a circuit and parts layout schematic.

In other words, if Josh ask me to design him an amplifier, he would own all of my work and I would be obliged to send him all my documentation and files.

If he paid for me to build him an amplifier, I would be less obliged, but still probably give it to him as a business courtesy. This courtesy is getting less common, but is still common and some what expected in the world of electronic music.

I'm not an amateur, i'm an auteur.

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Originally Posted by Shin Johnpv

It's not malice or greed. 1. You're paying for a final product.

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I was not under that impression. But I'm glad I figured this out sooner than later. I'm going to be more specific in the future.

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Originally Posted by Shin Johnpv

You're not paying for their plans, or the materials or parts, you're paying for a final product. If you want it set up with 6 of them on one sheet then state that in the initial contract. 2. They're protecting themselves. I had a few friends express stories of handing over files with the people they gave it to claiming there would be more work in the future. Then they find out that those people just hired a shittier GDer who charged less and gave my friends files to them to work from. So by giving them that they just lost money and work. There's nothing greedy about that, as a freelancer you never know where the next job or paycheck is going to come from and losing one to some one else sucks ass. Specially when that person is just building off your work.

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I don't have any sympathy for this line of thinking.

Eh, it goes both ways. You take jobs and you lose them.

Shin's correct all up in this bitch.

Finch, draw more. Give away your work less.

Edit: Just saw the "Draw Something" thread. Er, continue drawing.

I'd file this under revisions. Meaning, when you set up a freelance contract it is a good idea to put in an allowance for revisions to the design. So maybe you'll agree on a price for the logo/print/whatever design and then say "I'll do revisions to it twice for the agreed upon price." Anything after that will cost you extra. Otherwise you'll get people that expect you to endlessly work on something saying that "it should only take you ten minutes blahablablabla!"

If all you need is the (presumably) vector logo scaled down onto a page 6 times instead of 1 that's not a big deal, as long as you are aware that it'll print smaller. I don't think you need their original files.

You bought a can of soup, not the recipe.

Cheeks: totally different things being compared there. A company hiring you to design how a product works needs those things in order to craft the product and make it function. A piece of artwork or video doesn't need anything else to make it work, it's designed to be seen a certain way and that's all it ever has to do. It doesn't need to ever be repaired, it won't break down, it won't be returned by a customer, and so on.

Depends on the client. Usually no. Think of it as the blueprints of your house. A builder can build you a house, but he doesn't have to show you HOW to build a house. Photoshop files in particular contain step-by-step details about how you did what you did. In some cases where I've had to reluctantly give clients Photoshop files I've always stripped everything away as much as possible.

Of course it's always on a case-by-case basis. If the client is payed up but I don't ever want to deal with them again I'd be willing to give them the magic - since i don't want to hear from them again. I generally try to keep good terms with my clients who pay regularly so I would acquiesce to their demands. I would just strip out a lot of the info first ("flatten" shit as much as possible and render blend modes and layer styles).

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Originally Posted by Fe 26

that is actually how it works in all engineering. No one pays just for a finished product. They pay for everything.

If I go work at fender and they pay me to design an amp, they own everything. They get the schematic, art, bill of materials, PCB layout, testing information, everything. If I then leave Fender, all of that material will be accessible to the people after me and I will not get paid for any of their work.

This is generally how all engineering works. Ford owns all of the work of their engineers. If one of them leaves to work at Ducati, he does not get any money for the work he did at Ford. He will not even receive money from patents that were filed jointly between him and his previous employer.

With guitar amps, even if you contract only production and not the design, it is common to send along documentation that could be used to copy said amplifier. In fact, it is kind of frowned upon in the amplifier world to NOT make your schematics available for repair work. Its a good way to get called a cork sniffing faggot. Before the mid 80s it was common to package this kind of documentation with electronics. If you ever look inside an old radio, you should see a circuit and parts layout schematic.

In other words, if Josh ask me to design him an amplifier, he would own all of my work and I would be obliged to send him all my documentation and files.

If he paid for me to build him an amplifier, I would be less obliged, but still probably give it to him as a business courtesy. This courtesy is getting less common, but is still common and some what expected in the world of electronic music.

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But this is completely different. In this case Ford is your EMPLOYER. If you're freelancing you are your own employer. Ford isn't going to give the plans to anybody for obvious copyright protection reasons. If you work at an agency and are doing work for them they own your files. If you're freelancing FOR the agency they probably have a service agreement making those files theirs. If they don't the ownership is yours at best and joint at worse.

If you're just freelancing for an individual party chances are they're paying for the end result. If you want all of the files you have to specify that up front. Otherwise nope.

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Originally Posted by Fe 26

that is actually how it works in all engineering. No one pays just for a finished product. They pay for everything.

If I go work at fender and they pay me to design an amp, they own everything. They get the schematic, art, bill of materials, PCB layout, testing information, everything. If I then leave Fender, all of that material will be accessible to the people after me and I will not get paid for any of their work.

This is generally how all engineering works. Ford owns all of the work of their engineers. If one of them leaves to work at Ducati, he does not get any money for the work he did at Ford. He will not even receive money from patents that were filed jointly between him and his previous employer.

With guitar amps, even if you contract only production and not the design, it is common to send along documentation that could be used to copy said amplifier. In fact, it is kind of frowned upon in the amplifier world to NOT make your schematics available for repair work. Its a good way to get called a cork sniffing faggot. Before the mid 80s it was common to package this kind of documentation with electronics. If you ever look inside an old radio, you should see a circuit and parts layout schematic.

In other words, if Josh ask me to design him an amplifier, he would own all of my work and I would be obliged to send him all my documentation and files.

If he paid for me to build him an amplifier, I would be less obliged, but still probably give it to him as a business courtesy. This courtesy is getting less common, but is still common and some what expected in the world of electronic music.

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Working for an employer and being a freelancer are two completely different things. As a freelancer you are your own employer and are a contract worker. Which gives you certain rights and freedoms that say some one who was staff for the same company wouldn't have. Though in the same token being staff offers things a freelancer wouldn't get. You're looking at it as Fender paying you for a guitar amp. Look at it as joe schmo buying a guitar amp from Fender. Fender doesn't give me the blueprints and schematics for the amp a long with it. You're not Fender in this situation, you're Joe Schmo.

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Originally Posted by Shin Johnpv

Working for an employer and being a freelancer are two completely different things. As a freelancer you are your own employer and are a contract worker. Which gives you certain rights and freedoms that say some one who was staff for the same company wouldn't have. Though in the same token being staff offers things a freelancer wouldn't get. You're looking at it as Fender paying you for a guitar amp. Look at it as joe schmo buying a guitar amp from Fender. Fender doesn't give me the blueprints and schematics for the amp a long with it. You're not Fender in this situation, you're Joe Schmo.

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it is the same for a freelance engineer. They'd still own it all.

It is that way for practical reasons. If they are paying me to give them a design that they can put into production, they are going to need all of that information. Simply mailing them a finished amplifier or schismatic is not enough to go into production.

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Originally Posted by Shin Johnpv

Fender doesn't give me the blueprints and schematics for the amp a long with it. You're not Fender in this situation, you're Joe Schmo.

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sure they do. You can go to many amp companies and pull the manual and schematic. Which used to be common for everything. It is only when things started to become digital and "disposable consumer electronics" that companies have shied away from this.

Thanks guys. You've given me a lot to think about and research.

Its a shame that things have gone this way. You'd think the guy would have cut me a little slack being a friend and knowing what my budget is. Live and learn.

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Its a shame that things have gone this way.

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What did they do? If it was a financial issue then they wouldn't have ignored your request, they would have given you an updated price.

Yeah, man. Just ask him again. Maybe he just forgot or didn't know what you wanted to do.

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Originally Posted by Fe 26

schismatic

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A schismatic is a person who creates or incites schism in an organization or who is a member of a splinter group.

if it wasn't in the contract to begin with, then you aren't "paying" him for all those files. Just whatever the finished product (print, filetype, etc) is.

Why would the freelancer not give you all the files? The principle of the matter, if it's not in the contract. Or if it's not in the contract, they may "hold" those files hoping you'll agree to pay more for them. Or, it could be that they want to be your go-to guy if, in the future, you want to do other things regarding this project (like isolating a logo, making new posters with logo/art).

There are PLENTY of reasons a freelancer would refuse to give up every file that wasn't agreed to in a contract and paid for.

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Originally Posted by Fe 26

You'd think the guy would have cut me a little slack being a friend and knowing what my budget is. Live and learn.

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That's bullshit though - I can't count the number of times people want me to do work for free, or under my rate because they're a friend/family member/knows someone close to me. Like seriously - IT'S HIS LIVELIHOOD.

I could ask you the reverse - what kind of fucking friend would ask, pressure, or demand the other to do something that can end up costing him work (meaning a living!) later down the road? That's Grade A shit right there.

You're starting to sound like too many clients I've dealt with in the past and its making my blood boil.

Dude, I'm your father's cousin's uncle's nephew's former roommate, you can totally do this under your rate right? We're practically family!

Wow this thread. Let's talk about something else. I'll make a space giraffe alpaca picture tonight because it's just pulling me down even knowing this is here while a perfectly good drawing thread is being held down because of it.

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Originally Posted by Drewbacca

I would just strip out a lot of the info first ("flatten" shit as much as possible and render blend modes and layer styles).

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This is how I figured out how to emulate my old bosses' work. They'd pass me files and I'd just comb through the layers to see what made it tick.

Imagine if I didn't work for them. I'd know all their secrets.

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Originally Posted by Shin Johnpv

Dude, I'm your father's cousin's uncle's nephew's former roommate, you can totally do this under your rate right? We're practically family!

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That sounds like a lot of money for something that should only take you 15 minutes.

All of you, so joyless. You create without emotion, with only a want for compensation. There is no love in your work, not even hatred. No wonder your lines are so dead.

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Originally Posted by Finch

All of you, so joyless. You create without emotion, with only a want for compensation. There is no love in your work, not even hatred. No wonder your lines are so dead.

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Finchu, the way I see it is this:

If I'm not making a living off art, I'm making a living doing something.

Which means 40 hours a week less spent on art.

So yeah, I would like compensation. No one asks a plumber, electrician, or mechanic it work for free.

"Oh, well you you must love to do it! So you'd be doing it even if you weren't getting paid!"

How well do you think that nonsense would fly with any other professional?

If I'm not getting paid to do what I do, then I would much rather it be MY OWN PERSONAL WORK, not something at the behest of someone else. Better that I get to work on webcomics, videogames, and pursuits of personal passion, than have that precious time eaten away by those who under value and take advantage.

Moreover, it isn't a matter of money, more than it is time. If I have to spend X amount of hours making a living regardless, I'd much rather spend it doing what I know and love, than in some asinine, 9-to-5 Joe Job just so I can continue to do what I love. Or another way; why work 40 hours a week and make art 20 hours, if I could work on art 60 hours a week and get the same results?

This is separate because I don't want it lost within the other post:

It's not about paper, dolla dolla bills. It's about protecting and respecting yourself as an artist and professional.

The way I look at it, anytime a client undervalues work, asks for something for free, adds things that weren't part of a deal AND doesn't expect to compensate you? That's abuse! That's mentally and emotionally crushing. Anyone worth asking labor of is worth compensating fairly for said labor. Anyone who would resist or refuse this is a villain and fiend that is actively leveraging your talents and good nature against you for their own personal gain.

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Originally Posted by Hero

How well do you think that nonsense would fly with any other professional?

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I have no sympathy.

If I was to charge people for my technical advice, at a fair rate, the combined total that TNL members would owe me is probably over a 1k$.

But I have never charged for it. And the work I've done for members, I've done at cost or gone into the red on.

And I don't regret it, because I'm not an asshole.

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Originally Posted by Hero

if it wasn't in the contract to begin with, then you aren't "paying" him for all those files. Just whatever the finished product (print, filetype, etc) is.

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There never was a contract. I didn't think I needed one to get help from a friend (double so since I was paying over the hourly rate).

Well, OK.
An Illustration I get, all the client should need is a full resolution copy of the picture.

But a logo? These are designed to be used over and over. Stretch and recolored. You don't hold onto the files so they have to come back to you to make adjustments to their property. You don't have to give them every little detail, but like Drewbacca said, you flatten some bits and it's good enough should they need to build off of it later.

And cheeks, come on. You need 6 copies on one page, my little sister can do that with Word. You don't need a master file for that stuff.

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Originally Posted by Dunlap

But a logo? These are designed to be used over and over. Stretch and recolored. You don't hold onto the files so they have to come back to you to make adjustments to their property. You don't have to give them every little detail, but like Drewbacca said, you flatten some bits and it's good enough should they need to build off of it later.

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It's going to depend on the art itself, but a single vector logo should look good in any size. If you need something different to display properly and fit on, say, pens then I'm pretty sure most professional places with have a package deal that includes things like that.

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Originally Posted by Fe 26

There never was a contract. I didn't think I needed one to get help from a friend

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Originally Posted by Shin Johnpv

Dude, I'm your father's cousin's uncle's nephew's former roommate, you can totally do this under your rate right? We're practically family!

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Dude may be your friend, but this is still a monetary transaction involving someone's job. Normal rules still apply and people are still going to be protective over things that deal with how they're able to earn money.

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Originally Posted by Fe 26

I have no sympathy.

If I was to charge people for my technical advice, at a fair rate, the combined total that TNL members would owe me is probably over a 1k$.

But I have never charged for it. And the work I've done for members, I've done at cost or gone into the red on.

And I don't regret it, because I'm not an asshole.

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The difference here is 1) yeah, you aren't an asshole, so you have the right to do work for free if you so choose and 2) it's not as if TNL as an entity has ever asked for your personal employ. People here share information (even professionally), but they are not being asked of it, or else - you do it, fine. You don't? Fine too.

So that your friend chooses not to give you something you didn't implicitly ask or pay for, as you ask him to be under your employ, is perfectly within his right to do so. You don't like that? You shoulda asked for a contract and specified what you wanted. Saying "well, he's a friend and I shouldn't expect to" is fine and all - but doing business that way also means instances like this...and he's not wronging you in any way.

You have no sympathy for the freelance artist trying to make a living? I have no sympathy for you being dumb and not making contracts or "oh boo hoo I give info to TNL for free because I'm cool like that" nonsense.

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Originally Posted by Dunlap

And cheeks, come on. You need 6 copies on one page, my little sister can do that with Word. You don't need a master file for that stuff.

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This is really the bottom line here.

This is the one thread where cheeks asks for advice and then doesn't clutch his blanky and cry in the corner when his predetermined answer turns out to be wrong, right?

hahahaha finch!

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Originally Posted by Hero

You have no sympathy for the freelance artist trying to make a living? I have no sympathy for you being dumb and not making contracts or "oh boo hoo I give info to TNL for free because I'm cool like that" nonsense.

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What kind of fag asks for a contract with a friend?

People keep bringing that up, and I have to wonder, do any of you really do that? Do you make out contracts when dealing with very small jobs for people in your personal life? Do you inhale Wang that much? You and the people you befriend can't keep your own word or negotiate issues?

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Originally Posted by Some Stupid Japanese Name

This is the one thread where cheeks asks for advice and then doesn't clutch his blanky and cry in the corner when his predetermined answer turns out to be wrong, right?

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this is so incredibly back handed.

I said I was wrong and thanks for the information, and you still feel the need to drag this tired thing out.

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Originally Posted by Dunlap

And cheeks, come on. You need 6 copies on one page, my little sister can do that with Word. You don't need a master file for that stuff.

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that was a generic example. I'm not actually going to discuss what I'm doing with this file here. Copy/paste would have ruined the final product.

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Originally Posted by Fe 26

What kind of fag asks for a contract with a friend?

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None, because real friends have no issue and actually ASK ME to make a contract. They say "I wanna do right by you, you're a professional and should be treated like one"

If it's work for friends/fam whatever for free or as a favor, I don't give a shit. The moment it involves money, and they're the ones to offer that, they're also the ones who say they wanna do it "right"

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People keep bringing that up, and I have to wonder, do any of you really do that? Do you make out contracts when dealing with very small jobs for people in your personal life? Do you inhale Wang that much? You and the people you befriend can't keep your own word or negotiate issues?

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See above. I'm tired of repeating myself and your juvenile "YOU ASK FOR CONTRACTS OMG YOU SUCK WANG I WIN AT DEBATING THIS"

1) I wouldn't do work for a friend I couldn't trust.
1a) I don't have friends I wouldn't trust.
2) They're usually the ones to ask to do a contract.
2a) They do this because, as a friend who really is a friend, knows, appreciates, and respects that I'm a professional at this crap
3) Due to all this, I don't think a contract is *needed* but I'll still do it, as a formality. It also keeps consistency - you never know when that ONE PERSON WHO INHALES WANG is gonna try and act like paying me something means they get to make rules up as things go along. 5 months later, I've done hundreds of hours of work for $100? No thanks.
4) I don't think any of that logic equates to the amount of "wang" one could inhale.
5) Seriously, stop your belly-aching, especially if one post later you're like "oh no, I totally know I was in the wrong whoops"

I don't think I'd even thought to ask for one before this thread. I've never been involved in a contract for anything, or heard people talk about them.

Last time I post in this thing because:

1) I want Finch to draw more owls
2) THIS is what an asshole designer could do (and he's still within the right to): http://www.27bslash6.com/bob.html

because that is totally the same thing. A guy who making very little money, getting help from a friend, is just like some executive who lost some files. You figured me out Hero. I'm an angry fat cat, swimming in money.