"Skin in the game" is code for 'They'd share my political views if they were taxed as much as I was'.
It's bullshit.
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"Skin in the game" is code for 'They'd share my political views if they were taxed as much as I was'.
It's bullshit.
I'd like to think it's code for "since it directly affects me, I'm far more involved in the process and hold people accountable for their actions with my stuff"Quote:
Originally Posted by dave is ok
But hey, I say potato, you say bullshit...
I think it's code for "I hate democracy and think a class-based oligarchy, like the one we left behind in Britain 200+ years ago, is a good idea."
You're really hard pressed to find someone without "skin in the game".
Sure, not everyone has to write a check every April because of credits and deductions reducing their tax obligation to nothing - but those people still deal with all sorts of regressive taxes. Sales tax, payroll tax, Social Security, healthcare. Everyone has skin in the game.
I'm not saying Yoshi's idea (if you don't have skin in the game, you don't have a say/vote period) is good. Or right. Or even logical.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diff-chan
I am, however, arguing that the more personal investment you have in a matter, the more likely you are to hold people accountable.
Like, if you pre-order a game in full a year in advance and the game gets pushed back another year, you're likely to ask why and be pissed over someone who doesn't know of said game until they see it on a shelf.
I love all the liberal whining in this thread. If you get out more than you put in, you have no skin in the game. People should never be able to vote themselves money they didn't earn.
Sorry, but there's more at stake and more represented in this country than just money. If you're worried about just money, you can still become rich in China.
I agree. Monied interests voting themselves 15% capital gains rates, carried interest exemptions and repatriation holidays needs to stop.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshi
I don't know if china works the way you think it does.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thief Silver
I'd be impressed if a nonchinese person could get rich in china off of china and its people.
The fact that they make 90% of our consumer goods for pennies on the dollar has not occurred to you?
Ah, the naivety of youth...Quote:
Originally Posted by Thief Silver
If you have a solution to not throw out the baby with the bathwater, it's needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by dave is ok
I am not sure how you can argue that capital gains aren't earned though. That's nonsense, unless you're back to you hedge fund managers again.
You can just pick up the baby before you dump the bathwater. Why wouldn't you? Are you a monster?
Capital gains being taxed at half of the rate of income is ridiculous and clearly biased towards the non-working investor class.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshi
When did "representative democracy" become synonymous with "liberal whining"?
Probably when the founding fathers intended that only land owners should vote.
Nobody makes a long-ass post like you did without believing it. Stop pretending.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hero
Wasn't this to prevent slaves and Native Americans from voting? I pay taxes. Why shouldn't my vote count? I live here. I contribute to society. Even those with no jobs contribute in the form of sales tax. I hate that you just pick one spot to stand and then ignore everything going on around you. That's why this country is in the shit hole. Of all people, I would figure you to be brighter than this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshi
Exhibit A and B of the "giant cash grab by rich assholes has fucked this country up" theorum
http://www.fundmasteryblog.com/wp-co...0417205212.gif
http://danielboshea.files.wordpress....v-profits1.jpg
If there is anything that 10 years of posting at TNL has taught me, it is that Yoshi's political opinions do not deserve to be taken seriously.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razor Ramon
I would.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diff-chan
Typing is pretty easy.
See, look.
In 1982 the great demon Mandrkak came to Alabama. While there he partook of many great meals of cornbread, BBQ, and Bud lite. After finishing his banquet of Alabama's finest, he traveled to the devil's crossing to entice men. After driving 4 hours in a Mercury, he finally arrived at the crossing. He pulled out his triple neck bass and began to play. People came from far and wide to see the demon play his heavy beats. One man in particular was very impressed with the demon and offered to trade the demon the life of his wife for the bass and his skills. The demon agreed knowing that the murder of the woman would damn the man. But little did the demon know that the woman was a Mormon and instead of murdering the woman, she married the demon. The demon was now in an open marriage with Fat Betty of Neshoba county. Betty Hoba they would call her. The man left town with his new won skills and bass and the demon was stuck in Desoto with ole Fat Betty.
See how easy that was? And I don't believe a word of it.
Voting was pushed back until early 2012. Id link but I'm on my phone.
This shouldn't even make it past committee.
What's the support for this looking like? Is it close?
All I know it's being discussed by children.
It'll pass. We're fucked
but it willQuote:
Originally Posted by Thief Silver
as for support, it looks like 3/4ths of that hearing was bought and paid for by big media/don't know any better as the people putting forward genuine concerns about obvious loopholes I could count on one hand, and every single amendment they put forth to make the bill not as sinister was shot down faster than jfk in dallas
there's a hopeful theory floating around that they're intentionally making it as comically evil as possible just so it gets put down all that much faster in the actual senate, where things matter
e: vvv
big money > being noisy, and it only works sometimes to quiet the public while still giving a big leash to the deep pockets (see: canadian telecommunications and the publics recent fight with bell/rogers/shaw about tiered/metered internet access)
Well, there's a few more months to get noisy about this shit, make it happen or it's on you.
If it does pass, there's always the hope that the Supreme Court could shoot it down. It's not very hard to frame this as a speech issue.
It's definitely a balancing act - it's not like capitalism or socialism are in and of themselves answers to problems.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thief Silver
I agree the loopholes should be closed so businesses have to pony up, and that lobbyists should be made public in Washington (not removed -- just transparent). A 30% business tax or capital gains tax is fine across the board if everyone is playing on a level playing field.
Would be great if a large movement occupying locations could have used their time in the spotlight to create awareness of certain problematic issues. But I guess when you shit in bags at the side of the road you've got other problems to deal with.Quote:
Originally Posted by YellerDog
There is absolutely no reason Capital Gains should not be taxed as income.
It's not income until you put it in your pocket, hombre.
And it's an unrealized capital gain which isn't taxed at all until you sell it and put it in your pocket.
I have no problem with that.
Capital gains are income and should be taxed as such.
I think you're glossing over the obvious difference to make your (poorly thought out) point.
I know exactly what I'm talking about, you it seems do not.
I know a lot about capital gains. If it were the same as direct income it would be declared as such. Lets argue about it for 3 pages.
I'm sorry are you working in Finance now and currently studying this in order to obtain your license?
Because I am.
You do not seem to understand that there is a difference between unrealized capital gains and capital gains.
If you'd like feel free to check in with Diff as well who would be more than happy to tell you that you're the one who is incorrect.
So this means what... we should just complain on the internet and not try? Enough of you faggots do that already.Quote:
Originally Posted by dave is ok
You say potato, I say go fuck yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshi
Ah, the stupidity of the old and out of touch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshi
I am.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razor Ramon
4!
4 posts in a row.
HA HA HA HA HA.
Drewbacca what the fuck are you talking about? Capital gains are taxed when they are realized. That's the point where the money flows to the asset holder. Once it goes into your pocket its just another dollar. Before that they are sitting in the market doing their thing... untaxed. It's really not a hard concept.
The problem here is not just that coroporations influence our representatives. It's that our representatives are old people, who are as fundamentally ignorant about tech issues as everyone else of their generation. You know how frustrating it is to deal with your mom's attempts to open an email attachment? Well most of congress isn't much better.
I have a feeling when our generation finally gains the political influence the boomers have now, you'll see a relaxing of some of the dumbass IP rights shit that they've passed in the last decade.
There need to be term limits on pretty much every fucking office.
At this point, I'm about to say that limit should be one term, too. Political office should be a public service, not a career.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shin Johnpv
Even if it passes they won't be able to stop it. Shit will go underground. It will be like a $250,000 fine for copying a VHS tape. Whose gone to jail for that? As I explained earlier there is a "fair use act" and issues involving parody.
It's effectively just going to end Google. We'll all go to 192.253.whatever to some offshore search engine that will take us everywhere. It's a dumb implementation.
No it won't.
Yeah that's pretty stupid, it will basically make it so people other than computer savy people will use torrents; until they find one of hte lists that gives you all the IPs to go to.
Bah to term limits. Wouldnt change anything except open up a revolving door and expose a fresh batch of greenhorns to the joys of institutional corruption on a regular basis.
The only whoescale reform that would change anything is public financing of campaigns. Exclusively. Barring that, there's a sure fire way to make sure these peoples' political careers are short, but nobody ever does it.
Congress' approval rating is something like 11%. Everyone hates Congress. But people like their Congressperson. Its the other guys that's the problem. So these pieces of shit keep going back.
Well a big part of the reason politicians are so beholden to people for money is not greed, it's the cost of campaigning. If you take away that need, you soften the motivation fueling the corruption.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diff-chan
You still have the human motivation to get rich as possible before you dieQuote:
Originally Posted by Frogacuda
But they also have a human motivation not to go to jail. If there's no campaign contributions, the shit is just a straight-up bribe, we have institutions in place to deal with that kind of thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by dave is ok
Not that it doesn't happen, but we have ways of dealing with it at least.
pft, "jail"
But that long ass post started and ended with "I don't believe Yoshi's 'people without property have no rights' angle" - go ahead and look.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diff-chan
If anything, I was trying to separate his stance from Thief's notion that Yoshi's notion is Big Time Popular Republican Opinion. It's not - there's a difference between someone wanting to keep what they earn and choosing how its implemented, and Yoshi's derangement of letting no one without property having a vote.
Then again, all you had to do was read the beginning and end of that long-ass post to know I feel that way already. Stop pretending that it's anything else.
Did the internet die yet?
Are tits considered IP?
nah that useless committee is on break until next week or 2012 or something
where we'll really see this stupid legislation (and hopefully PIPA too, which is the scarier of the bunch because it appears to let the government "disappear" people acting as dissidents) burn in flames is on the senate floor
they already "disappear" people acting as dissidents
I think it would reduce how many people in office are completely out of touch with what's going on in the real world. There are people in office, making decision's on laws who have NO CLUE what this shit is even about. That have been sitting in the same seat for 20 - 30 + years. There should be no more Strom Thurmonds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diff-chan
I'm not saying it should be a 1 term limit, nothing would get done then. Because like you said we'd have a constant stream of greenhorns. Give them a couple terms, after that though they should be out. No one should be in the same political office for life.
So it sounds like the SOPA bullshit is already happening before SOPA passes. Let's not give them a bigger stick to overreact with then?Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh
Nah, that's got nothing to do with SOPA. While it was a totally dick move on Universal's part, and everyone involved in the deal and its implementation should be hanging from a lamp post by day's end as an example to others on how not to conduct legitimate business, the video's removal was a result of a legitimate contract between two private companies. Google/Youtube needs to respond to this quickly, though, and so far all I've seen is silence.
James
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhwuXNv8fJM
pretty good video outlining sopa and how bullshit it is (also touches on related gaming site aspects)
that's what I mean - without SOPA, companies still find ways to pull content that, even by ambiguous, non-protected standards they find issue with. So the "need" for SOPA is non-existent. It only serves to give further wide berth by people to bully in such obtuse ways - and for it to all be lawful to boot, without the need of paying out to third parties for contracts like UMG has with Youtube.
Let's not all pretend like Megaupload is some super legitimate company.
I'm not.
I wonder if SOPA would end dropbox and a lot of cloud computing projects? Since you know, you can easily share copyright material with them.
Haters gonna hate.Quote:
Originally Posted by icarusfall
That has nothing to do with it. It could be fucking Piratebay, they should still be allowed to post original content on Youtube.Quote:
Originally Posted by icarusfall
I agree. I'm just saying.
I also don't see Megauload as any less legitimate than YouTube. Yeah, people use it to share copyrighted shit, but also all kinds of other shit, and they yank stuff on request. Same dealy.
I'd disagree on that point, but we don't really need to get all into it.
thisQuote:
Originally Posted by Fe 26
all online storage would be deemed illegal because ~copyright infringement~
Well, that would be a good way to screw the pooch.
Cloud computing seems to be one of those new emerging trends in business. One of those "software as a service" dealy-os.
I used it when designing the appliance texter. It allowed us to share our design documents, resources, write ups, etc without investing time or resources into setting up an FTP or any similar nonsense.
I see it and other cloud computing options as invaluable tools to new start up businesses that don't have the money, tech or know how to set up traditional IT solutions.
Megaupload does have practical legit uses. Or did.Quote:
Originally Posted by icarusfall
Before shit like dropbox, it was an easy way to send family huge zipped picture folders and crap that wouldn't fit in the email attachment feature.
Now, not so much.
My job would come grinding to a screeching halt without dropbox.
No mom, click the link in the upper right. NO THE UPPER RIGHT. ok, cool... now type this code in. NO THE ONE IN THE UPPER RIGHT! FUCK!Quote:
Originally Posted by Fe 26
ok, send things to my dad.
I think a congress person's term needs to be shorter- perhaps even facing re-election on a yearly basis. The term limit should probably be 10 one-year terms. Presidential elections? How about three two-year terms instead of two four-year ones. The old crowd needs to start getting in touch and listening to us, or to shove over.
Lamer Smith (no not a typo, Lamar IS a lamer!) reportedly halted a hearing on SOPA until 2012, but the hearing was sneakily moved to 12/21/11.
Check this shit out. It's not nearly over.
Vint Cerf: SOPA Officially Sucks.
Yeah, just what we need -- the entirety of the legislature in perpetual campaign mode. They wouldn't get anything done; everyone would be out either campaigning or fundraising (we're already pretty close to this as it is).Quote:
Originally Posted by gameoverDude
If anything, terms need to be longer, not shorter so legislatures can actually do some sausagemaking without having to worry about every minor decision generating 345,422,435 attack ads. (Then you realize it doesn't matter with regards to that, as your opponents will just make up shit as needed). Granted, this is all a moot point until there's some reform in regards to how campaigns are financed (which is happening roughly never, as it would hurt the exact people who benefit from the status quo).
I want campaigns funded exclusively by public funds.
No outside money at all.
And lobbying is done away with.
Longer terms? May not be bad if the door is opened wide to a threat of recall elections. Being in perpetual jeopardy of getting ejected at any time by the voters would likely cause elected officials to respect the people more. But no. Since they're safe, so many turn to the dark side, going all Palpatine on us, and following the trail of dirty cash laid out by The Man. Lamer Smith, for example.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dipstick
As things are now, we can scrutinize the Dark Siders all we want- but they can continue to sit on a jewel-encrusted throne, gloat, and flip the bird at us from their ivory tower with a tall glass of Dom Perignon in their other hand, knowing they're immune to recall (in 32/50 states I believe). That shit needs fixing.
The problem I have with term limits is that it almost feels like it is subverting the democratic process. If people want some dipshit to represent them his entire life, shouldn't they be able to do that?
The real problem, as I see it, isn't that people are in office too long, it is that there is too much money floating around. A campaign contribution really is just the present value of a future favor (at an extremely high ROI, buying a Congressman is really cheap), and the issue is that you need to make way too many favors just to get elected the first time. It just corrupts the whole process right at the foundation.
I seem to remember that there was something attached to the original HD phasing in legislation to make campaigning fed funded. Did that get removed?
I remember one of the counter arguments being that it would just double the campaign funds of more popular people. People would find ways to get them money, and they would just stack it on the gov paid campaigning.
this isn't how it's supposed to work
I guess we really are close to that corporate-run future
I keep forgetting that Protect IP is there too. It really is probably that SOPA is supposed to be so crazy we all ignore Protect IP.
Most likely.
This guy is perceptive:Quote:
Originally Posted by cka
"But you're not giving us any alternative means to control the internet and we WANNNNAAAAA.Quote:
“It’s all rhetoric and there are no proposals,” he said of the position staked out by the opponents to the bills. “From where I sit, it’s hard to see that as anything but a pretext for running out the clock and preserving the status quo.”
I thought the voice sounded familiar. That's "Total Biscuit". He does casting for a lot of Starcraft 2 tournaments.Quote:
Originally Posted by cka
He summed it up quite succinctly, though.
He's a pretty bright guy, I watched a lot of his Blizzard stuff back in the day where I cared about that shit.
I don't think they should. It was never meant to be a life long career. When the founding fathers set this shit up the concept was these farmers would come and serve their 2 years and then have to go back home and let the next person come in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diff-chan
Even in a perfect world where you didn't have corporate corruption buying favors from these people, you'd still have folks completely disconnected with no idea about what they're voting on.
I absolutely agree that there is FAR FAR too much money floating around. I don't think corporations should be allowed to donate money to any elected official. That said though I still think, even if money was taken out of the equation, there needs to be term limits.Quote:
it is that there is too much money floating around. A campaign contribution really is just the present value of a future favor (at an extremely high ROI, buying a Congressman is really cheap), and the issue is that you need to make way too many favors just to get elected the first time. It just corrupts the whole process right at the foundation.
I do believe that for most people they reach a certain age and they loose touch with the current mind set of the people. No one should hold power indefinitely.
I think it is less an issue with age and more an issue with making a career out of politicking. I think the job itself would start to build a little bullshit bubble around you. These guys probably start approaching it like anyone does any job and stop growing. And they probably stop going back to their home state and meeting new people and learning about new stuff. They probably get up, go to work, etc. How can you govern new technologies when A. your educational background has nothing to do with it and B. You don't do hardly anything in your spare time learn about it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shin Johnpv
It would be like me taking office and trying to legislate the beaches in California. Thats beyond my education level and I sure as fuck don't learn about it on my own time.
What Shin Johnpv said makes sense: Senators and Representatives should be limited to a couple of terms in their respective office, just as the President is. After that, let them endorse a potential successor from their respective party if they like.
The problem with Strom Thurmond wasn't his age (I do support Ron Paul and will vote for him if he's in the 2012 Presidential Election), but rather that he made a career out of politics. I can see long term political careers being a breeding ground for corruption. One thing that really puts politicians out of touch with those they should be representing is corporate bribery.
No, see, that's the thing. We already have a system that allows for people to remove politicians. It's called an election. If people think that a politician is out of touch then they can vote them out. Strom Thurmond stayed in office for 5000 years because his constituents wanted him to be there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shin Johnpv
If you want to talk about what the founding fathers intended, they really intended for people to be vigilant and make good decisions for their country. Obviously things haven't gone that well, but still that's the point. I don't like the idea of term limits, some states do it and they are still political basket cases. I don't think they solve anything.
Diff is correct.
Term limits are a bad idea for one simple reason: there are no term limits on lobbyists.
In states with term limited legislatures, legislators generally are clueless about legislative issues and procedure. They depend upon lobbyists (often former legislators themselves) to explain how the legislative process works, and to tell them what to vote for. Years ago, after finishing college, I worked tech support at the Arizona House of Representatives. Arizona has had term limits since the mid-90's. I saw legislators take orders from lobbyists from the floor of the House. I saw confused legislators struggle to understand basic legislative concepts while packs of lobbyists struggled mightily to explain why they needed to vote a particular way on a bill. Term limits make lobbyists much more powerful.
The problem with Strom Thurmond wasn't that he "made a career out of politics." His problem was that he was a racist hypocrite asshole. I want legislators to make a career out of legislating. I want them to be informed. I want them to know what the fuck they are doing. Term limits will not solve that problem.
I don't know if you guys realize this, but House and Senate members don't live in Washington and "stop going back to their home state." Your average legislator goes back to his home state every weekend, at minimum, mostly for fundraising purposes and to keep up with the 24/7 campaign cycle. (And guess who provides the airfare?) The constant need for legislators to return to their home state is a huge problem, occasionally a fatal one -- former Sen. Paul Wellstone died in a plane crash days before the 2002 election because he was madly campaigning across his home state.
We need federal public financing of elections.
This is news to me. I haven't heard of anyone from my state doing shit.Quote:
Originally Posted by sleeve
You've not heard of most things that actually happen.
http://news.cnet.com/8301-31921_3-57...-sopa-to-task/
yeah you know you kinda fucked up when these guys oppose the bill
Wow. The Heritage Foundation says "You lost us there" to these guys. :) Love it.Quote:
Originally Posted by cka
Kaspersky Lab has told the BSA goodbye over their support of SOPA. Yahoo also quit the US Chamber of Commerce (an organization I have zero respect for now).
Don't bother to amend SOPA. Just kill it.