There Is No Perfect Digital Distribution

There's probably more to put here against saying "DD is all you need" but that can fill in later.

In response to Yoshi's recent tirade of "Har har Physical media sucks and everything should be digital." As I'm sure it has before, time to centralize this shit. I'm only pointing out the flaws of DD as we all know most of the good points, no clutter, can't get a broken or scratched disk, can't 'lose it' even though you can have it taken away from you. Don't have to pay for distribution costs other than servers, allows people to get games that would otherwise be impossible to distribute out, etc etc. I just wanna list the bads.

You do not own your games, consumer protection laws have no precedent to defend them on games you download from the servers. If you get banned, you lose access to your games, not just some multiplayer server; but everything. Reasons for banning aside, this is cause for concern.

Steam

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012...r-steam-games/

Has a happy ending, but it's an example of a scenario that can happen quite often, particularly in the scenario of your account getting hacked. Sure, there's a good chance you can get someone to fix your issue, restore your account, and unban it as the hacker will likely do something to get you banned; if not though you're screwed.

For some reason, and I don't know if it's a bug, or if it's fixed, but I had an experience that others have shared, with offline mode I could not launch steam games. It was after I got Deus Ex that I couldn't launch it without being online in Steam, which is essentially ridiculous DRM. But any Digital Distribution where you lose access to what you paid for is a problem that physical media shouldn't have. However, because of Steam, it's an issue that can also happen with physical media that require Steam running, so enjoy.

GOG?

I honestly haven't used GoG, so all I know about it is people complaining about something to do with keys? I dunno whatever complaints you guys have for GOG.

XBLA

Security Vulnerabilities! Microsoft and Sony have that problem.

if a game is removed there are weird issues where you can't access it if you lose your hard drive, I've never bought a game that had these problems myself.

Locking in your card to your account and having no way to change it is also horseshit.

Sony

PSN is down, lol.

I don't really use PSN much so I'm not sure of the problems if anyone can fill this in.

Humble Bundles!

Just a limited selection, otherwise these are about as close to DD as you can get.

Any others?

Origin lol.

Also Onlive, which I haven't used or done much study on.

The more companies need to pay into infrastructure, the harder it is to make a profit, especially with bigger budgets and huge production teams.

You don't like their use agreements? Don't give them money. Even if Steam is still only selling you the license to play a game, buying physical media is like buying a physical license. You didn't buy the game, you bought the medium the game is stored on, a paradigm the developers knew they were entering into when they decided to make a game for X platform.

That's the only thing I think is bullshit: developers knew they were making a game for a system that uses physical media and knew the limitations of turning a profit on games if their product was sold used. Gamestop is taking advantage of a clearly established area of the paradigm that allows for profiting off of this limitation. I can understand the developers wanting the money to play the game. I can understand Gamestop using perfectly legal means to make the money instead. What I can't understand is the decision on the part of the developers/publishers to punish the customers for it. Aww, you don't think you can make a profit unless you sell online passes and screw people who buy used? Too bad. You made the game for a system that uses physical media. Either kill the middleman and go DD only or stop fucking the customer in the ass for a loophole that some other big company is exploiting.

I don't care if I'm just buying a license. It's the future of media distribution. Reward the companies that allow you to mod, don't use DRM, and treat the customer like a respected individual and you'll start to see that trend pick up.

1. There is no perfect anything.

2. You don't own the content on your physical media either.

3. Stop living in the past.

edit: 4. As pointed out above, vote with your dollars to fix what you don't like.

The only issue with GOG.com is that some of the games don't, by default, come with multiplayer keys. But that just means you have to ask for the key and they'll give you one. Everything else is about as close to perfect as you can get: no DRM, no client, efficient installers, easy redownloading.

GOG is great. Multiplayer key is understandable.

I'm going to vote by killing Yoshi during the revolution.

I refuse to buy disc anything anymore whenever possible. Console games bug the shit out of me for this reason.

GOG is as close to perfect as we'll probably ever get. The only real downside if that it's possible the site will die off and we'll never be able to re-download anything. But if you just back it all up somewhere else you'll be just fine.

The best thing about DD taking off is that it is getting to the point where it's easier to buy a thing than pirate it, IMO. Better for content-makers, better for rights-holders, better for the consumer.

All my PC games are from Steam or GOG, I never buy a disc anymore. Part of this is my love for just choosing from a huge list of games to play for whatever I'm in the mood for at the time and having the space for it on PC vs. a console but it's also because the PC resale market isn't very good so I can't really recoop much for selling it when I'm "done." Consoles I can usually get a decent amount depending on the game, but Steam also has lots of crazy sales so the games end up being MUCH cheaper to buy from them anyway.

Your concern of XBLA games getting removed is not valid since you can just go to your download history and redownload it. Granted, that's a pain in the ass if you've downloaded a ton of shit, but it's far from "gone forever." PSN IS down a lot though and there are more and more games requiring that you be online to play them (although there aren't many in the overall scheme of things). My hate for PSN is more for the fact that they force you to download DLC a lot of the time as a patch and it is therefore taking up all that space on my hard drive whether or not I bought the DLC (the store download is just a "key file.").

pirating will probably never go away. As long as we have 14 year olds with no money, no car, and access to a family computer it is going to happen.

Or people with money, cars, and access to a computer that act like 14 year olds.

There is also the mentality of they are doing it "because they can." But yes, the 14 year old thing is a big deal. I remember when I was 15 and modding my PS1 so that I could download and burn games since I couldn't afford to buy games... and then also because I could do it I never felt the need to buy a game. Once I got a job though I kept things legit, but I know others that kept on with the copies.

I rarely bothered with it. I think the ONLY times I've ever done it was for long dead Super Robot Wars games on the PS1 when the translation patches came out. And even then, I eventually ordered the original disks from japan when the prices died down.


Which brings up another negative about DD. If we ever go full DD, don't expect to see the same discounts of the past. There will be no physical store stock and thus no need to clear shelf space. XBLA and PSN will probably continue to run specials on specific games each month, but you won't be able to buy huge piles of cheap games like we are all accustomed to.

There won't be anymore "waiting for the drop"

You're confusing awful console makers with DD. What you just posted could not be further from the truth on PC, Mac, iOS, Android, etc.

edit: The new Duke Nukem is $5 on Steam right now for example. Let me know when you can get a new physical copy of any current gen game for that.

Because shelf space is the only reason anyone would ever run a promotion yes.

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Originally Posted by Fe 26

pirating will probably never go away.

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Pirating is the only consistent method of preservation the games industry has, and will probably remain that way for at least most of our lifetimes. If we're lucky it won't go away until it isn't needed anymore and that's not happening anytime soon.

User-based illegal copies are also the main reason most of TV, movie, and music history have remained with us to this day. The production companies don't care about that unless they can make an easy buck off it and even then they're sometimes too mired in legalities for things to be released back into the public.

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Originally Posted by YellerDog

Because shelf space is the only reason anyone would ever run a promotion yes.

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What can he say? He's an expert chef and marketing mogul.

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Originally Posted by Fe 26

Which brings up another negative about DD. If we ever go full DD, don't expect to see the same discounts of the past. There will be no physical store stock and thus no need to clear shelf space. XBLA and PSN will probably continue to run specials on specific games each month, but you won't be able to buy huge piles of cheap games like we are all accustomed to.

There won't be anymore "waiting for the drop"

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Have you even looked at the PC market in the last few years? Digital distribution has overtaken retail a while back and digital-exclusive sales are all over the place. Incredible sales even.

But yeah, it'll probably be worse for consoles since I don't see the manufacturers allowing competition onto their own digital store.

edit: Oh god I'm late.

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Originally Posted by Yoshi

You're confusing awful console makers with DD. What you just posted could not be further from the truth on PC, Mac, iOS, Android, etc.

edit: The new Duke Nukem is $5 on Steam right now for example. Let me know when you can get a new physical copy of any current gen game for that.

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that is 1 game.

I'm talking about how you assholes go to Target and buy ten marked down games that are only 6 to 12 months old. Are you really so dense that you think buying Duke Nukem for 5$ has anything to do with people buying piles of cleared out current games? Wtf is wrong with you?

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Originally Posted by epmode

Have you even looked at the PC market in the last few years? Digital distribution has overtaken retail a while back and digital-exclusive sales are all over the place. Incredible sales even.

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Yeah. I know. I was really mainly talking about console games. The PC physical copy market has been dead for years. It was dead even before legal methods of DD.

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Originally Posted by epmode

But yeah, it'll probably be a worse for consoles since I don't see the manufacturers allowing competition on their own digital store.

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this

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Originally Posted by Fe 26

that is 1 game.

I'm talking about how you assholes go to Target and buy ten marked down games that are only 6 to 12 months old. Are you really so dense that you think buying Duke Nukem for 5$ has anything to do with people buying piles of cleared out current games? Wtf is wrong with you?

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As you learn to spell and write, also look up "example." You could not be more wrong here. You should really just leave the thread before you further embarrass yourself.

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Originally Posted by Fe 26

Yeah. I know. I was really mainly talking about console games. The PC physical copy market has been dead for years. It was dead even before legal methods of DD.

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gozensbackpedal.jpg

I feel like I'm discussing something with a 10 year old in 1995.

Did you humiliate yourself in front of him too?

edit: On the bright side, this thread sucked before buttgills entered it, so at least he didn't ruin one for once.

Back on topic.

One good thing about DD is all the free games we get now. There are some pretty cool free MMORPGs out there. I think most of them operating by selling fancy items and stuff. As lame as that kind of is, it is still nice to have those games out there. It sure beats going back to the 90s and spending 60$ on a similar rpg experience.

The thread is a joke. DD is already here on PC and it is wonderful. As far as hacks are concerned, you can protect yourself. Get a card that you only keep money on for Steam or whatever. You can buy Visas that you put money on. Put a couple hundred on a card and go crazy on Steam. Steam isn't going anywhere.

Steam has both midweek and weekend sales... and then does crazy sales for the holidays and the summer. So anyone that thinks that DD doesn't have sales is grossly misinformed. That's not even including all the other distribution methods out there. MS sucked when it came to sales, but after Sony got their shit together and started doing good deals they really stepped up their games and started doing more sales and more frequently. They now have it weekly (although they usually aren't all that great, without the push from Sony I'm sure they wouldn't have bothered at all).

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Originally Posted by Fe 26

Back on topic.

One good thing about DD is all the free games we get now. There are some pretty cool free MMORPGs out there. I think most of them operating by selling fancy items and stuff. As lame as that kind of is, it is still nice to have those games out there. It sure beats going back to the 90s and spending 60$ on a similar rpg experience.

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I thought you were talking about console games?

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Originally Posted by Yoshi

edit: 4. As pointed out above, vote with your dollars to fix what you don't like.

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You may not own the content, but you still own the computer. And when you pay for the content, you should not have your rights to use it be interfered with. No hijackware like SecuROM should be included with the content. Draconian forms of DRM have never stopped the pirates. DRM vs. Pirates = vicious cycle.

I don't buy SecuROM infected games until the developer removes that shit. Far Cry 2's Steam version has had SecuROM patched out officially, despite what the store page says. Publishers: Just use Steamworks or GFWL instead. I don't bother cracking Steam or GFWL games, since the client would detect a modded EXE and there's no need to use one in these two cases.

FWIW, Serious Sam 2 is now available on Steam and this version has no SecuROM. After the purchase, I scanned it and it came up clean. Forget the disc version in this case.

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Originally Posted by TobalRox

They now have it weekly (although they usually aren't all that great, without the push from Sony I'm sure they wouldn't have bothered at all).

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Competition is a beautiful thing, and we'd probably be getting much better sales if there were multiple distribution owners on each console.

I'm really not concerned with not having physical discs.
I can burn them myself if I have to.

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Originally Posted by MechDeus

Competition is a beautiful thing, and we'd probably be getting much better sales if there were multiple distribution owners on each console.

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Yup, definitely.. sales are better on PC because there are many different ways to get a game but with MS, Sony, and Nintendo it's them or nothing. I still remember buying an addon for Rainbow Six Vegas and then getting a refund because it was free on PS3 and MS made it a rule that if it's free on another platform it has to be free for them too... so without Sony that would have been $10 more I would have spent. Sadly, that policy only refers to consoles so I still have to pay for the L4D(2) add-ons!

I'm all for DD, and use it all the time, but I do like having physical copies of my absolute top favorite games.

This thread itself is a big example of one of the major flaws with DD: it's not universal. PC has Steam and others that are different, 360 does it another way, PS3 another, and even the Wii has its own retarded way of distributing DD. The arguments here are zig-zagging between consoles and PC as though they're all going the same way, when there is absolutely no consistency in the industry. Lose a download on one console and you can recover it, lose it on another and you're fucked. And no one has a clue as to what the next gen will bring.

Do you guys think there will ever be a universal policy for DD on consoles AND PC?

Why would you want it? Different policies for different things seems ok.

Not saying DD isn't amazing and that I don't love it, just that there are benefits to owning a physical copy and acting like there isn't is just a ignorant.

Also how are half the posts belonging to one person?

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Originally Posted by Melf

This thread itself is a big example of one of the major flaws with DD: it's not universal. PC has Steam and others that are different, 360 does it another way, PS3 another, and even the Wii has its own retarded way of distributing DD. The arguments here are zig-zagging between consoles and PC as though they're all going the same way, when there is absolutely no consistency in the industry. Lose a download on one console and you can recover it, lose it on another and you're fucked. And no one has a clue as to what the next gen will bring.

Do you guys think there will ever be a universal policy for DD on consoles AND PC?

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What in the fuck are you talking about? 360 does it one way, PS3 another and so on? Universal policy? Lose a download and you can't recover it?

Ummm, every system out there lets you redownload any games you've previously bought, hell all but Nintendo consoles (because nintendo is retarded) let you download it on any system you put your account in. That seems pretty universal.

What else exactly are you looking for consistency in? Pricing? Fun fact, pricing varies from retail store to retail store as well.

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Originally Posted by Melf

This thread itself is a big example of one of the major flaws with DD: it's not universal. PC has Steam and others that are different, 360 does it another way, PS3 another, and even the Wii has its own retarded way of distributing DD. The arguments here are zig-zagging between consoles and PC as though they're all going the same way, when there is absolutely no consistency in the industry. Lose a download on one console and you can recover it, lose it on another and you're fucked. And no one has a clue as to what the next gen will bring.

Do you guys think there will ever be a universal policy for DD on consoles AND PC?

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You're right. Fuck DD. I'll put this Gears of War 3 disc in my PS3 and this Star Wars Blu-Ray in my HD-DVD player and revel in the wonders of a universal physical media standard.

edit: God damn it, bbobb.

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Originally Posted by Thief Silver

There is no perfect Digital Distribution

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Originally Posted by Thief Silver

I honestly haven't used GoG

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Well you must be an expert.

Please , continue to discuss a topic you aren't completely familiar with by your own admittance.

We're going about this all wrong.

Raise your hand if you still get your porn from a magazine.

Fin.

Yeah, I don't really want to get involved in this mess but I wanted to say that GOG is just about perfect when it comes to games that are no longer being updated.

On topic: no DD is not perfect.

That's the thing though, DD doesn't have to be perfect, it just has to be better than physical media, which in many ways it is. There are little to no problems with DD that physical media doesn't share from what I can see. The only places there are significant problems are consoles, but I think this image is all I'll say about that:

http://i.imgur.com/aUqAq.jpg

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Originally Posted by bbobb

What in the fuck are you talking about? 360 does it one way, PS3 another and so on? Universal policy? Lose a download and you can't recover it?

Ummm, every system out there lets you redownload any games you've previously bought, hell all but Nintendo consoles (because nintendo is retarded) let you download it on any system you put your account in. That seems pretty universal.

What else exactly are you looking for consistency in? Pricing? Fun fact, pricing varies from retail store to retail store as well.

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I wonder when it will be possible to have a discussion on this forum without people getting all wadded up in every thread. Then we wonder why no one new joins up.

We're talking about an industry that is mostly physically-based. That's a far cry from an industry where EVERYTHING is digital. I thought we were all speculating about shit that no one knows the time or circumstances under which it will occur. I made an observation and asked a simple question. I made it in reference to the discussion in the other thread about what would happen to an all DD generation of consoles once the next gen arrives.

If it's not possible to answer it without getting testy, then please, forget I even asked.

I was going to chime in until cheeks got involved and Opaque once again unleashed the PC vs. console supernova of Who Gives a Fuck.

http://gifs4misc.com/wp-content/uplo...outta-here.gif

Do one of these let you sell the games you buy from a DD service yet?

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Originally Posted by Shin Johnpv

Do one of these let you sell the games you buy from a DD service yet?

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Sort of. http://greenmangaming.zendesk.com/en...een-man-gaming

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Originally Posted by Shin Johnpv

Do one of these let you sell the games you buy from a DD service yet?

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Nintendo does. You just have to sell the hardware with it.

We are a long ways off before DD is standard. What's the percentage of current console owners that even have it hooked up online? I bet theres millions of poor fools out there that don't have a broadband connection. I can't see new consoles sacrificing millions of dollars in sales to go all digital. Maybe in the next next gen. Digital makes sense on PC since everyone needs the porn.

I've made it pretty plain that I'm a physical media kind of guy, but if a console company did it right I really wouldn't mind. There are a couple of things would need to happen:

1: Games must be priced fairly. This generation, this happens with retail games, but not necessarily with the digital downloads. A game releases for $60 and the hardcore buy it. After a while it drops to $40, then $30, and so on, meanwhile the digital download is still full price. PSP digital games is one of the few that seem to get it right, as there are plenty of older full PSP games that are available at fair prices, but there are exceptions and a lot of games are not available.

2: Ability to play on multiple consoles. I have two Xbox 360's now, and it's irritating that I can't play my own paid for XBLA games on one of them without it being connected to the net, but I can play Yoshi's despite the fact that his gamertag isn't on the system anymore. This is obviously flawed. Likewise, I have two PSPs, and can only have games activated on one of them. The PS3 is a lot more flexible, but perhaps too much as it has lead to abuse. My solution would be to simply allow any console registered to a gamertag/PSN ID/whatever be able play all the games. This would allow me to have multiple systems, but prevent friends from bumming off of each other.

Vita games will be available digitally for 10% less. There are rumblings of digital 3DS and Wii U releases. I don't care if they are only DD. I just want the option to get everything digitally.

I'd probably go completely digital with the Vita if the memory wasn't so expensive. I can see me doing just that in the future when 32 gig cards are cheap. I particularly love digital on handhelds due to portability.

Nintendo needs to shape up before I give them more than $10 for something digital.

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Originally Posted by Melf

I made an observation and asked a simple question.

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The problem with your observation is that it's saying there's a problem with DD in that it's handled like physical releases only when it comes to consoles. If having the 360, PS3, Wii, and PC all handle DD separately is an issue than selling physical copies is just as bad, so it's not really a DD issue, it's an issue with the console manufacturers.

That said, DD probably won't be the same across all platforms until they reach some type of agreement on who handles servers, the OS, and usernames. Until then they'll each have their own type of download code and individual locked networks because they all want to control the media flow. With their quality checks and larger percentage cuts they slow down and regulate the process, but even with the smaller amount of releases compared to the PC, MS makes more money than they do from those games on Windows since the developers don't have to go through them. When it can be shown to earn them money (or when they have no choice) there will likely begin to be a standard. Nintendo is adamant about being terrible at customer service so they'll probably never join in, but I wouldn't be surprised if MS and Sony worked together after another generation.

There would need to be at least a consistent account across all the system in order for a purchase to be recognized, and then part of what comes in there is how each system sees that. If they're all still running different OS' and different hardware setups there still needs to be three versions for PC, Xbox, and PS, which also means they may still not be supporting online play between each other and there comes the issue of first-party teams focusing exclusively on one set of hardware and not bothering/understanding the other. The problem there is that you could end up with a universal marketplace that offers games the consumer can't play (which could be easily filtered, but could also be pushed through anyway as a way for each company to promote their own hardware on the other's system).

Yes, there are lots of ways around these issues but they involve a ton of restructuring of the entire way things are currently handled. It would be for the best for consumers, but corporations are greedy and slow so I wouldn't count on it. Unless something like OnLive gets a bigger foothold and MS and Sony decide they need to directly fight it, I doubt such a series of changes will happen soon.

Though I would love to be pleasantly surprised.

That's what I was asking about. Thanks Mech.

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Originally Posted by GohanX

2: Ability to play on multiple consoles. I have two Xbox 360's now, and it's irritating that I can't play my own paid for XBLA games on one of them without it being connected to the net, but I can play Yoshi's despite the fact that his gamertag isn't on the system anymore. This is obviously flawed. Likewise, I have two PSPs, and can only have games activated on one of them. The PS3 is a lot more flexible, but perhaps too much as it has lead to abuse. My solution would be to simply allow any console registered to a gamertag/PSN ID/whatever be able play all the games. This would allow me to have multiple systems, but prevent friends from bumming off of each other.

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I've heard Sony has limited a game to two consoles now. I've heard that you could have as many as six consoles, before the change was made.

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Originally Posted by Melf

We're talking about an industry that is mostly physically-based. That's a far cry from an industry where EVERYTHING is digital.

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Huh, what other industry was almost entirely physically based until about the last 5-10 years or so?

What could that have been?

the music industry!

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Originally Posted by cka

the music industry!

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This thread needs some car analogies.

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Originally Posted by epmode

Sort of. http://greenmangaming.zendesk.com/en...een-man-gaming

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That's getting closer, still not there though. I don't see the masses accepting DD only until they can trade games in and sell games to who ever they like, the way they can with physical media.

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Originally Posted by Opaque

Well you must be an expert.

Please , continue to discuss a topic you aren't completely familiar with by your own admittance.

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Why are you so dumb?

Even though I gave an example of a problem I had heard of, which guess what, actually existed! But yeah guess it's perfect. I had enough of an idea to make a point, that was not wrong (Though it's not that big of a deal). You Fucking idiot. You were wrong in the Supermarket conversation too when I gave statistical proof that IPs 1%-2% made up number was spot on; regardless of when he guessed it. You should never open your mouth; you're as bad as Ironplant except you're outright a bigger asshole about it. You wouldn't be that bad as an idiot if you weren't such a fucking cunt.

Also I'm sure it's lost on some of the people, but the main reason was to get the ball rolling, defend physical media a little bit, and confine what was obviously branching out; I love digital media and it's definitely the future. I just think it's ignorant to dismiss physical media. The fact we're getting closer to being able to sell stuff is great; Steam you can even gift games, which means in a low volume, you can actually sell games. Not to mention shit like the 4-pack.

Seriously good to hear GOG is so good though; I'll probably give them a next try since there won't be any DRM issues.

Thief, GOG is seriously good shit. They have regular sale too so wait for one of those if you want a good deal. I was looking for a legit copy of Planescape Torment and didn't want to go ebay. Boom GOG release the game for $10 and I have seen it go as low as $5 or $6. It is awesome.

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Originally Posted by Tain

I'm all for DD, and use it all the time, but I do like having physical copies of my absolute top favorite games.

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Pretty much this.

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Originally Posted by kingoffighters

Thief, GOG is seriously good shit. They have regular sale too so wait for one of those if you want a good deal. I was looking for a legit copy of Planescape Torment and didn't want to go ebay. Boom GOG release the game for $10 and I have seen it go as low as $5 or $6. It is awesome.

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Do you have a Half-Price-Books near you?

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Originally Posted by gamevet

Do you have a Half-Price-Books near you?

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Nope. And like everyone here, I don't really need a physical copy anyway.

GOG is awesome, I have a ton of shit from there and only wish they'd put out even more classics. Thief Gold is out now zomg!

Giant, boxed copies of old PC games that won't even run anymore are dumb.

I just got Guilty gear for $2.50 that's pretty sweeeet.

I finally grabbed Timeshock on the weekend. People on the GOG forums were whining about how it was the DOS version and consequently didn't support higher (>1024x768) resolutions, but with one of the alternate DOSBox builds (like this one) that support extra video memory and ram, it can be run as high as 1600x1200. And it looks spectacular.

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Originally Posted by Thief Silver

I gave statistical proof that IPs 1%-2% made up number was spot on; regardless of when he guessed it.

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but I didn't guess it :C

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Originally Posted by Thief Silver

Why are you so dumb?

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To make such an absolute statement with zero first hand experience is some retard level shit.

You're right though, I'm the dumb one.

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Originally Posted by Thief Silver

Seriously good to hear GOG is so good though; I'll probably give them a next try since there won't be any DRM issues.

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You can't even keep your same opinion for a single post.

I call you out for bashing a service you've never used even though it's arguably the best example of DD out there and your response is to tell me I'm wrong for thinking you're wrong before you admit you're wrong? Can I buy drugs from you?

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Originally Posted by Fe 26

but I didn't guess it :C

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Not to mention I read what you were talking about as being about GP (a fair thing considering your phrasing), which it turned out you weren't. We were both right about two different things and just communicating poorly.

Thief still has not figured that out. The concept is beyond his grasp even though the info he himself links to backs me up and what you posted says average GP in 2005 was around 20% and that doesn't even take into account additional revenue from slotting fees. You were dead right about operational profits, I just didn't realise you were talking about that, it sounded like you thought GP was 1-2%, which is obviously impossible.

Thief though, he thinks he can open book test this shit even though he obviously has had as much first hand experience with sales reports in a retail environment as he does with gog.

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Originally Posted by bbobb

Huh, what other industry was almost entirely physically based until about the last 5-10 years or so?

What could that have been?

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I'm not talking about another industry. I'm talking about the game industry and ONLY the game industry. Again, we're speculating about shit no one knows about, and I'm saying that a totally DD game industry is a far cry from one that has been principally physically-based up until this point. No one knows how things are going to play out.

But since you decided to make the comparison to other industries, I'll bite. I can sincerely say that I hope gaming doesn't go through all the problems with DD that music has, but there will probably be some major bumps along the way in regards to rights, piracy, etc.

Again, my main concern is the conservation of games in an all-digital industry. As long as that's accounted for, I'm fine, though I still prefer to see and touch what I "own."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Melf

But since you decided to make the comparison to other industries, I'll bite. I can sincerely say that I hope gaming doesn't go through all the problems with DD that music has, but there will probably be some major bumps along the way in regards to rights, piracy, etc.

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The music "industry" is having issues, but bands are making as much or more than ever, it's just divided between more people than ever before.

This is directly because of the death of mainstream radio. In the UK, the sales of albums have been fairly constant for the last 20 years and have even grown somewhat in the last 10. But in 1996, Clinton signed the Telecommunications Act and deregulated ownership of radio stations. Viacom, Clear Channel, and Time Warner bought up every station in the country, and let their marketing department try to pick their playlists, and they've been in a downward spiral ratings-wise ever since.

So now there's no mainstream. People just don't listen to the radio anymore, and a lot of them don't listen to new music at all. It's just a bunch of shitheads who are too stubborn to admit they were wrong to fire people who were good at picking hits in favor of fundamentally flawed "market research." People who do buy music listen to more obscure bands, and music is far more decentralized.

I'm not really sure that's a problem, by the way. I'm just saying it's their own fault and it's maddening that they'll never accept accountability for it.

I'm seeing a lot of 'correlation is not causation' in that argument. The internet also became a thing right after Clinton signed that act.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Melf

I'm not talking about another industry. I'm talking about the game industry and ONLY the game industry. Again, we're speculating about shit no one knows about, and I'm saying that a totally DD game industry is a far cry from one that has been principally physically-based up until this point. No one knows how things are going to play out.

But since you decided to make the comparison to other industries, I'll bite. I can sincerely say that I hope gaming doesn't go through all the problems with DD that music has, but there will probably be some major bumps along the way in regards to rights, piracy, etc.

Again, my main concern is the conservation of games in an all-digital industry. As long as that's accounted for, I'm fine, though I still prefer to see and touch what I "own."

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Summed up pretty much my thoughts with this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dave is ok

I'm seeing a lot of 'correlation is not causation' in that argument. The internet also became a thing right after Clinton signed that act.

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But the internet was global, and both the collapse of radio and the decline of album sales are domestic problems.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Frogacuda

But the internet was global, and both the collapse of radio and the decline of album sales are domestic problems.

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Worldwide CD sales have declined every year since 1999.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dave is ok

Worldwide CD sales have declined every year since 1999.

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Largely because the US is the biggest consumer market in the world.

Look at the UK's sales figures. It tells a different story. There's a decline for a few years when the charts aren't tracking digital purchases, and then once they do, it shoots right back up past where it was.

Coming soon to this thread:

Semantics Wars: Episode III: Revenge of the Frog

I often wonder what Yoshi thinks the word "semantics" means. </semantics>

Whatever it is, he's against it.

The thought that semantics are completely unimportant is adorable.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Frogacuda

I often wonder what Yoshi thinks the word "semantics" means. </semantics>

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I know exactly what it means, but thank you for your typical condescending bullshit. It hasn't started in this thread yet, but it's coming.

I really don't care as much as I used to. Let it all go DD. Movies, music, games. And if something happens to it and we can no longer play those games, whatever. Fuck it. I don't have to play those games or listen to those new bands or watch new tv shows. I'll find something to do. I don't really care if our entertainment culture from the years 2020-onward can't be preserved.

Fuck it. I have my own unimportant things to do. I can't be bothered.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fe 26

Fuck it. I have my own unimportant things to do. I can't be bothered.

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This is actually one of the most enlightened thing ever posted on TNL and one of the worst things at the same time.

I both admire your ability to not give a shit about relatively trivial matters and hate you for not wanting to preserve our culture like any non evolutionary failure should want to. I am very conflicted right now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Opaque

This is actually one of the most enlightened thing ever posted on TNL and one of the worst things at the same time.

I both admire your ability to not give a shit about relatively trivial matters and hate you for not wanting to preserve our culture like any non evolutionary failure should want to. I am very conflicted right now.

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Oh I love preserving things. Drew likes to joke that I'm a hoarder because I buy old books and magazines. And I collect pre CD games.

But this argument gets old. I get tired of trying to explain to grown adults why they should want to preserve things. They don't care and they never will care. They have stupid trivial shit to do. They don't have the time, energy or desire to pass anything along. Hell most of them can't be bothered to resell things or donate things when they are done.

If they want all of our entertainment output to be disposable, good. Whatever. I don't care. I'm tired of arguing with hippies, yuppies and fat lazy man children. They've won. They can have their world of smoke, mirrors and toilet paper.


And it isn't like anything right now is really worth passing on. God forbid if there were no physical copies of Transformers 2, Weezer's newest album, or Mario sports 12

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Frogacuda

The music "industry" is having issues, but bands are making as much or more than ever, it's just divided between more people than ever before.

This is directly because of the death of mainstream radio. In the UK, the sales of albums have been fairly constant for the last 20 years and have even grown somewhat in the last 10. But in 1996, Clinton signed the Telecommunications Act and deregulated ownership of radio stations. Viacom, Clear Channel, and Time Warner bought up every station in the country, and let their marketing department try to pick their playlists, and they've been in a downward spiral ratings-wise ever since.

So now there's no mainstream. People just don't listen to the radio anymore, and a lot of them don't listen to new music at all. It's just a bunch of shitheads who are too stubborn to admit they were wrong to fire people who were good at picking hits in favor of fundamentally flawed "market research." People who do buy music listen to more obscure bands, and music is far more decentralized.

I'm not really sure that's a problem, by the way. I'm just saying it's their own fault and it's maddening that they'll never accept accountability for it.

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Agreed!

Dallas/Ft. Worth is the 7th largest market in the US, yet it's corporate radio stations are some of the worst in the country. The Eagle plays the same old hard rock music they've been playing for the past 10 years; while in the 90's they'd play anything that was new. I travel to a place like Albuquerque, and their rock station is playing new music.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Yoshi

I know exactly what it means, but thank you for your typical condescending bullshit. It hasn't started in this thread yet, but it's coming.

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But no one was making a semantic debate of any kind. It's not the first time I've seen you drop the word in that context (or lack thereof) either.

While I've warmed up to buying some games online, I don't want to live in a digital-only world. There's something to be said for ownership of a product versus renting it long-term.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Yoshi

I know exactly what it means, but thank you for your typical condescending bullshit.

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Attachment 64431

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Frogacuda

But no one was making a semantic debate of any kind. It's not the first time I've seen you drop the word in that context (or lack thereof) either.

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That might be why I said "coming soon." I can't be sure though, since you haven't told me what I know yet.

That's semantic nonsense.

and some condescending bullcrap

I'm not sure I know what it means, either. "Semantics" is the expression you use when you're about to lose an argument and want to wriggle out of it before the point of official defeat, right? Like "Ow, dude, my ankle, time out, time out," in kickball?

Meaning 3 here is the one that most often matters on the internet:

Quote:

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the meaning, or an interpretation of the meaning, of a word, sign, sentence, etc.: Let's not argue about semantics.

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It's like Bill Clinton's "what does sex really mean" defense.

Frog's posts were fine and somewhat informed/informative. Please shut the fuck up.

But don't you understand, it wasn't the posts I made he had a problem with, it was the posts I was going to make.

Yoshi is Minority Report.

Yoshi are you ok? You've been more yourself than usual.

I have absolutely no idea what that means. And I in no way mean that in the context of a semantics argument.

Everyone else knows what I mean.