Question: What is the point in using the extra money in making this game for other platforms? Won't most of the people that want to play it, donate, and already have a version of it on steam?
Question: What is the point in using the extra money in making this game for other platforms? Won't most of the people that want to play it, donate, and already have a version of it on steam?
They want to make money?
Don't you dare start mentioning that. People might actually do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogacuda
That's what I'm getting at. Will they make more money by porting it? Who's going to be left to buy those ports? Most of us are going for the steam copy by donating.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzo
What kind of idiot likes double fine games, sees this on the news, sees the internet talking about it but is going to pass up the guaranteed cheap release for 15? Who's going to think "OH MAN I LOVE DOUBLE FINE....I'M GOING TO WAIT FOR UNDETERMINED PORT AND NOT DONATE" And if they do donate and play ti on steam, how many people are going to buy it a second time on a second platform? And if not many people are going to buy ti twice or wait like bone heads, why bother paying a team of people to port it?
I wonder if the 1.1 extra mill they've made so far wouldn't be better spent on giving us more game or developing a second game that we won't get for our 15.
"Who's going to be left to buy those ports?"
Gee, I don't know, maybe the entire population of the world, the vast majority of whom have no idea what kickstarter is?
There are currently not even 50k donaters. If this game only 'sells' that much it's a total disaster. Even Brutal Legend, hated by many, sold over a million copies. Don't underestimate how cautious and cheap people can be, and how many will impulse buy when it's splashed over Steam.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fe 26
Yes, so selling it on additional platforms is probably going to be their main source of income. People that either didn't donate because the donation only includes a PC download, or those willing to double dip to get it on their platform of choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fe 26
They're going to translate it into more languages too. It's going to be available to a lot more people now.
No, in game development, any project which has paid your salary for the time that you spent making it is a success, and as much success as Double Fine has ever seen. It's somewhat uncommon for developers to see any money after a game is released. Residuals usually kick in after the game sells a certain amount, and most games never hit those amounts. From Double Fine's perspective, this is effectively a no-lose proposal.Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronChance
But it will sell a few copies after the fact, especially if the end product is any good. Which will actually leave them with a continuing source of income after the fact, probably for the first time.
Think of the TellTale games that are on Xbox and PS3... there are people out there that play those games on consoles and not on PCs. Then there is the iOS market.
So when this bombs maybe people will start a fundraiser for something worthy rather than a videogame.
It can't possibly bomb though. They're getting money that they don't have to pay back with a *successful* product. In most cases, you need to deliver a successful product regardless of quality. In this case, you probably have to deliver a good product regardless of success. Depending on your definitions, the correlation changes, but since we like to whine about that stuff, I'll just say it isn't close to +1.
The publisher IS the target audience (without the responsibilities of actually, well, publishing the game).
That's true. If they sell one they can scream success.
The only way for this to "bomb" is if the game doesn't come out. It's not even like a pre-sale, they're literally putting all the money back into the product, because the product itself is the end goal, not maximizing profits. If profit was the goal, they would still stick with the original budget even after exceeding that goal.Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilMog
The WHOLE point is that this is a game that wouldn't be made otherwise, because it isn't the type of game that sells a great deal. To quantify this game's success in terms of sales is ridiculous.
That said, obviously it will make a profit, because they're selling it directly (or close to directly) and any sales at all is profit.
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Originally Posted by EvilMog
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Originally Posted by EvilMog
You are making the strangest posts in this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilMog
What was his last good game? Psychonauts? How did Brutal Legend turn out again? I predict disappointment.
I have high hopes for a PnC-ish adventure game though. I feel there will be a focus in this game, something that BL lacked.
I haven't heard one bad thing about Iron Brigade, and that was only a few months ago. I didn't play it myself though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spent
I think you might be looking at this from the wrong angle. Everyone loves Double Fine's stories, writing, and characters. So this is them making a kind of game focused more on story, writing and character.Quote:
How did Brutal Legend turn out again?
lol, great humanitarian EvilMog lookin' down on people on the internet who want to entertain themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilMog
I like how he thinks this is coming out of people's charity budget and not just money they would have spent on different games that aren't catering to their own small niche.
Well yeah. Lol. I probably should have mentioned that I never donate anything. Im a Scrooge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tain
So good for you guys for believing in something like this.
The way I see it is that I was going to buy it anyway. So why not save $45 (BL was what, 60 at launch?) and help some cool dudes get shit done?Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogacuda
The way you see it is wrong and stupid. This $400,000 game is not going to retail at $60, or even go to B&M retail at all. It's $15 going to fund a $15 game before said $15 game goes to steam.
Not only that, but it's a $15 game that (initially) had 1/6 of the proposed budget of their previous $15 downloadable games ($2 million dollars).Quote:
Originally Posted by FirstBlood
I hope people have their expectations in check with this. This project was conceived as an experiment. At $300,000, the game wouldn't have even had full voiceover, which has been a genre standard for almost 20 years now (in fact, VO alone will probably cost $300,000, depending on the game's length). Luckily people have stepped up and they'll probably have $2 million to work with in the end (minus film costs), but that's still very limited, especially for an established company that pays their people what experienced developers deserve to be paid.
I expect vaguely Telltale-ish production values; Visible shortcuts taken, canned animations, with things that require special animation happening off screen, assets reused as much as possible, that kind of thing. Either that or it'll be a very short game. Maybe both.
And I'm ok with that, but I just hope people aren't expecting a Grim Fandango-ish epic.
I would honestly be fine with Monkey Island 2 tech, here. I'd rather have good-looking low-tech than cheap-looking high-tech.
As with any Kickstarted Obsidian RPG, I'd prefer old 2D tech, if possible. SCUMM + Infinity Engine revival pls.
The thing is, they're working with existing tech, tools, and staff, and breaking too far from what they're outfitted for would probably cost more money that it would save.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tain
They said they were targetting a 6-8 month dev cycle. They're not going to write a new engine, tools, and hire a bunch of 2D animators, even if that process might have been cheaper had they been making 2D games all along.
Maybe doing a 2D/3D hybrid like Vampyre Story could work, backgrounds don't really require hiring new animators.
I'd be fine with that, too. My order of preference would be low-res 2D > a hybrid with polygonal characters > entirely high-res 2D.
I find myself pretty off-put by the look of a lot of HD 2D games, and I can't imagine it looking anything but cheap with this kind of budget.
Guess what, I'm completely wrong: It's 2D with a new engine after all. I guess that does cut way down on the cost of porting to iOS and the like.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogacuda
As long as vector/Flash animation doesn't rear its ugly head, I don't find this to be true, particularly in the adventure genre. Machinarium, Dark Eye, Deponia, Whispered World all look sharp...Quote:
Originally Posted by Tain
This really isn't a $400,000 game anymore, now is it?Quote:
Originally Posted by FirstBlood
But it's closer to that than a $20 million retail game.
So's you're left nut
$2.5 million budget, minimum, and honestly I'm thinking $3 million is realistic. They're at $1.6 million now, and success like this tends to keep on rolling as it gets more and more coverage.
My personal hope is that the 2D engine they were planning on for this stays roughly the same, and the game grows to meet whatever potential might have been cut down due to the initial budget constraints. If they want to switch over to an 9-12 month cycle and flesh out the content, that's fine by me.
James
Yeah, polish and content is what I care about most here. It really takes closer to a year to make a good game, just because of the process of testing and revising puzzles and the like. Rushing it wouldn't be good.Quote:
Originally Posted by James
I think there's a lot of pressure here to really make a good product. I get the impression that Double Fine may have been more intrigued by the process than the product (hence the documentary), but I don't think the audience sees it this way. I think they see "Finally, a new point and click adventure from LucasArts people" and they're going to be holding the game to a high standard.
Honestly, I may care more about the documentary than the game right this very moment. I really want to see the moments of "Oh crap, what have we let ourselves in for?" they must be feeling.
James
I agree totally. That's why I'm putting the 30 in.
I've seen a lot of comments that say "Why are you spending our money on a stupid documentary," so you're probably in a small minority there. But I'm looking forward to the doc, I think it'll be better than people realize.
I'm fine with the documentary. These guys made gaming history. Let them record it and share it.
You should probably avoid paying attention to the comments of the brain-dead. The Kickstarter is very clearly marked as $300,000 for the game, $100,000 for documentary. Anyone who contributes and then complains should instead just cancel their reserve. Also, leave the internet forever and neuter themselves to protect the species.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogacuda
James
Eh, people buy products all the time and wish some part of them was different even before getting to the cash register. We'll all live.
What are all these damn chips doing in my chocolate chip cookie!? I just want the damn cookie, dammit!
James
It is a fair complaint to make. There isn't an alternative equivalent that they can purchase.
...Seriously, what the hell are you talking about?
The alternative is to wait for the game to come out and buy it on Steam. And if our straw-man whiner doesn't want to pay full price, they can wait for a Steam sale.
James
For the same price.Quote:
Originally Posted by James
When the doc is 7% of the budget it's a nice bonus, but when it was 25% of the budget, I could understand the complaint, because it would be compromising the quality of the game itself in a more profound way.
But it's not like they said $400,000 goal, oh wait, trim 25% out for non-game-development-related content. The game dev budget was $300,000, the documentary $100,000. Add that up and you get $400,000, and that's what the Kickstarter was for.
James
When they were still at $100,000 it was 100% of the budget, and that just makes me so mad!
Yeah, never said anyone was misled. Just that I can understand why, on paper, the doc makes the proposal look less attractive to some.,Quote:
Originally Posted by James
If they had only raised $100k and then just made a documentary for an imaginary game it would've been awesome.Quote:
Originally Posted by kedawa
That would have been acceptable.
Honestly, I don't play these games for the gameplay, so a humorous and interesting documentary is worth as much to me as a humorous and atmospheric game without a heck of a lot of gameplay.
I'm actually very happy that they pre-planned for the documentary and made that a part of the proposal from the get-go. It really will be part of the experience to see how this thing is put together.
Interesting interview over at Giant bomb.
It seems like the idea for the game came out of wanting to do a documentary and not wanting to deal with a publisher when they do it. But it also came shortly after an unannounced project of theirs was cancelled, and the company was trying to keep the staff on board.
He also talks about how everyone told him $400,000 was too much and he wasn't sure they could do it, heh.
1.7 mill and 29 days to go
Anyone complaining about the documentary can stop now that 100k is a much smaller fraction of the budget.
Interestingly, this is starting to pick up some speed again. It had leveled off at about 2000 an hour yesterday and now it's up to 4000-5000 again.
https://twitter.com/#!/timjustraised
"Just" $2000 an hour is still pretty nuts.
Wish I made 2000 an hour
Lots of pressure coming with this money...
If they really want to nurture this, they should pay attention to The Order of the Stick Kickstarter. Double Fine had a great start, and could comfortably do all their initial plans and then some with what they got, but with the time they've got left and fan enthusiasm backing them, they could really go to town on this with a bit of nurturing.
James
What a terrible webcomic that is. I can't believe people are paying real money for it.
At least it's not Sluggy Freelance, I guess.
I've got the full run of the Order of the Stick books, and they're great fun. I also threw the Kickstarter a couple bucks for one of the rewards packages. Totally worth it.
James
So I think it's safe to say this isn't going to come out in 2012 anymore. This has become a Real Game.
Ohhhhh shit!
They still have $15 coming from me, so add that to the total.
Same here.
Funny that. I could have swore that someone sayed that earlier in the thread and had to deal with asshole naysayers. I can't remember who that was for the life of me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogacuda
Bumped my donation up to $30. The documentary on this is now something I'm really looking forward to.
James
Where did you say it wasn't going to come out in 2012 exactly?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fe 26
Or are you assuming that when I said "real game" I meant it was fair to compare it to retail games and not just previous Double Fine downloadable games?
My original point was that 15$ was a bargain for the game. You and Firstpoop got caught up in me comparing it to a 60$ retail game as an illustration of cost savings.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogacuda
Its going to have at least a 2mill budget. Maybe even 3 mill. 15$ is a good price for that. Maybe even a bargain assuming they will work extra hard on this with the attention that has been put on them for raising so much money so quick. There is going to be a lot or pressure to make the best game they can for 2 or 3 mill. And anyone can buy into that for at least 15
Well their other $15 games also cost $2-3 million. You could argue that's a bargain, but it's in line with what we've come to expect, at least.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fe 26
Actually, to be fair, I guess you're right about it being a bargain if you compare it to all the other adventure games out there with similar or smaller budgets that come out for like $30. Brutal Legend and full priced retail games aren't going to make your point, but there are plenty of adventure games that might. Telltale games probably have like $2-3 million budgets and those cost $35.
I'll concede on the brutal legend comment. That was a poor choice on my part. I should have chosen something a little closer in that price range and gameplay.
holy shit Firstpoop.
I pray to god you only know that because Frog quoted it and not because you took me off ignore.
Speaking of which - have you played the Back to the Future ones? I saw it on Wii for $20 new and was tempted. Although the Sam & Max port on it was terribly done...but still very tempted...Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogacuda
Lame, by-the-numbers Telltale drek.
They did a pretty good job but they're held back enormously in my eyes by the episodic content and the same-y, generic look of their Telltale engine design.
Story was ok, I had fun with it. Definitely feels limited. They want to do more but are crammed into this little Telltale box.
If you like Telltale games, its neither their best nor their worst, but it targets experienced gamers less than Sam and Max and Monkey Island, so expect kind of easy puzzles and all. Good voice acting and music, though, I didn't hate it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hero
Click for full size
Starting to fall off. Looks like it's time for Double Fine to set some new goals, make some new promises and get this thing started up again. Even still it should hit 2 million, but if they put some effort in they can probably do 2.5.
Or they could just make the game. I like that option more.
Double Fine has weeks left before the Kickstarter ends. They can either be happy with what they've got and see it top off a about $2 million-ish, or they can start communicating with that handy Update feature and maybe put a nice dent into the operating budget of another project. Their choice, but I'm thinking the second option would be the better call.
James
I can't really bring myself to be interested in their future projects if I have no idea how this one will end up.
I think they're going to stick to their commitment of funding just this game, which is wise, because 2 million dollars is actually still a pretty small budget, especially for a game that's going to draw comparisons to some of the greatest of all time. If there's a point at which what they have becomes "enough" to do everything they want, I'm sure that point is over 3 million at least.Quote:
Originally Posted by James
I'd selfishly like to see it go higher, because I'll get a better game for my contribution at the end of it.
There will probably be one last surge in the last two or three days. You know, people who waited to the last second and decide to buy it and not miss out. maybeQuote:
Originally Posted by FrogacudaClick for full size
Starting to fall off. Looks like it's time for Double Fine to set some new goals, make some new promises and get this thing started up again. Even still it should hit 2 million, but if they put some effort in they can probably do 2.5.
Fully voiced (in English at least)
Ports! Mac, Linux, iOS, some Droid stuff.
DRM-free release at launch
http://www.the-nextlevel.com/tnl/att...1&d=1329354126
Ben There, Dan That taught me that I have trouble playing non-talkie adventure games now, even when they're awesome and well written, so full talkie is good (if expected) news.
Actually none of this is really surprising. Android port makes me happy, and probably ensures an eventual double-dip, since I love playing SCUMMVM on my phone.
Also, case in point, it just raised $15,000 this hour because they updated. If they just keep the updates coming, this thing will be huge.
I" M GOING TO GET ALL SERIOUS AND SHITQuote:
Originally Posted by Frogacuda
Those games would only be half as awesome with voice acting. Realistically, an indie dev can almost never afford high-quality voice acting. And even if they could land the talent, the Ben and Dan games have so much unique dialogue for nearly every stupid item combination that they'd have to cut most of the script.
FYI I really like the Ben and Dan games!
Lots of good news in that update. Beta access through Steam and DRM-free copies for backers are appreciated. I'll probably end up buying the Android port, too. Mac folk no longer have any excuses not to come along for the ride!
They're super good. They are. But they'd be super gooder with voice.Quote:
Originally Posted by epmode
I'm not saying that's a realistic expectation, or that they in particular could afford them, or anything like that, just that I recognized I was not enjoying that game as much as it deserved to be enjoyed because of the lack of voices.
EFIGS makes a lot of sense because this will probably mostly sell in Europe because other countries are excluded from donating to Kickstarter. This actually might make a good amount of money on release, maybe even fund another game. If it's good, at least.
I didn't get very far in Been There Dan That not because of voice or its lack, but because they wouldn't shut up. If that thing had been voice acted I'd still be sitting in the first room waiting for the VA to finish his lines.
James
They take after Sam and Max that way.
I would donate a lot to see a real Steve Purcell Sam and Max game again. Like one where he's doing the actual writing. Still my favorite comic book of all time. I know Pixar's gotta be a sweet gig, but you'd think at some point he'd want to work on a project of his own again.
If you're playing adventure games for the puzzles you're in the wrong genre.Quote:
Originally Posted by James
Unless you're playing the Myst series.
They can't move some of the money to another project. People have given them money in the hopes of making this one that much better.
There are some adventure games with great puzzle design.Quote:
Originally Posted by MechDeus
But good writing is what separates the great adventures from the rest, no argument there.
My favorite parts of adventure games are always the little unexpected bits, like the extra dialogue for characters in Curse of Monkey Island, and the little games at the convenience store in Sam and Max hit the road. I hope the extra money will avail them to add more of those little touches, because Telltale games are completely lacking in them.
This is kind of interesting given recent events.
In 2004, Ron Gilbert laid out hypothetically what he felt it would cost to build a state-of-the-art 2D adventure game with an experienced staff:
http://grumpygamer.com/4904226
He concluded that to do it would cost about a million dollars, minus marketing and distribution costs. Unlike 3D, I don't think the needs of 2D game development have changed radically since he wrote that, although obviously costs to do things at a world-class studio in San Francisco are a bit higher. Still pretty encouraging.
The Q&A updated: "We were aiming to finish in October of 2012, but in light of the increased budget we're planning to expand production to ensure we make the best game possible."
YES EXPAND PLS
I already told you that!
I think less than a year is rushing it if you have the budget (which they do now).
PROVE ITQuote:
Originally Posted by Frogacuda
I think we all expected a delay after this thing was so successful; it's just the first time that it was officially acknowledged.
They told me that in a PM on kickstarter like 3-4 days ago and I told you and then you didn't believe me.
