Dude, that is so true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Green
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Dude, that is so true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Green
That's it right there. It's an assumption that can be supposed is fact. An estimation if you will. Granted you are correct, 88, as I don't know for 100% sure, however, there are varying degrees of "sure" and as such, I am 99% sure that my previous statement is correct. Just like you're 99% sure I'm typing this from a computer while connected to the internet. You also cannot be 100% sure, but you are less than doubtful of the situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by frostwolf ex
Besides, whether or not he did or did not is irrelavent. My argument is still sound. ;)
I am actually convinced that you're sitting in a small room, and Jesusing your way onto the internet through sheer force of will.Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Vegetable
Don't crush my expectations.
I love it when you turn "Jesus" into a verb in that way on you can pull off. :lol:
I know this in responce to something that was posted a long time ago my Nick, and may not answer his question at all.
The problem that I see you having with choosing to love God or being damned is that you have a very humanist defintion of what's fair of just.
You think from your perspective that anyone ignorant of God or of another faith is codemend to hell. All I can counterpoint this with is Jesus love for children. He says be "like" these children for they are innocent. It never specified that they were well mannered Leave it to Beaver whelps that were perfect of faultless. When I think of a child I think of someone who know's very little and must put thier faith in another to guide them to maturity. They are for the most part naive and ignorant. They believe fairy tales and imaginary things as well as truthes that are presented to them. Thus I believe that God is a just God and he will not codemn those who are ignorant of Him, but judge each person as they should be judged. He will however, only codemn those who reject Him. The bible says the only unforgivable sin is blasphemy of the holy spirit, what many consider to be just outright rejection of God. God will forgive even the most vile and disgusting of beings that recieve Christ (a fairness not alotted in your assesment of who is judged, by you, public opinion or any other source, good or evil). He will forgive anyone except those who reject him. He will not codemn those ignorent of him, because they are "like" children ignorant of the world around them.
To question God's justness is to have a terrible understanding of his mercifulness. The death of Jesus was not a self centered suicide for publicity. It was a gesture to show mankind that even God knows what death feels like, and that he'll codemn no one to a fate more unjust than what He Himself crucified yet innocent has suffered. To belive that the inherent goodness of mankind is more profound is to truly ignore the world around you. I marvel at the works and accomplishments of man more than most people I know, being that I'm rather simpleminded and curious by nature. But if all the bridges built, diseases cured, poor fed, and just deeds done were weighed side by side with all the lies spoken, all the murders commited, all the poor starved while rich men steal food from their mouthes, all the bridges destroyed and fences erected, then the good of this world will be crushed under the weight of the evil. There is no inherient good or morality. Morals are either learned and/or (in my case) given through spirtual guidence one can supernaturaly recieve.
You say that we shouldn't be held to a standard of perfection if it is impossible to obtain, and I say we are not held to a perfect standard, rather we are to like humble children, unknowing but obeying out of faith. We will stumble and fail it is ordainded by God, that is why accepting His forgiveness for sins, and His loving guidance is important> It is that fellowship with God that guides us like a loving parent into maturity. (I'm not saying that it is the only way to maturity, but having met many children without parents to guide them, I'd much rather, given the choice, have a parent to help, even if it's only in a spiritual sence.)
I'll share this one bit of personal information. I know that I am a wicked and feeble man. I'm not a philosopher, a theologin, a politician, or anyone of great import or high rank. I'm a sinner whose acts of evil would easily turn the stomachs of a great many people. If I were to be judged for my deeds then surley I would be damned. However I've been pardoned and made a free man because I chose to accept that despite all that I've done God has forgiven me through Christ Jesus. It's not fair that I be shown mercy, and that the just punishment of damnation isn't in my future. But mercy is and has always been greater than justice.
1) Surely, it could be argued that anyone who actually rejects god is actually ignorant to his awesomeness. Doesn't this mean that we all go to heaven?
2) If god is just, then why can a person recieve eternal, unimaginably terrible punishment based on things they did in the span of 80 years or so?
3) do you believe in Evil, and if so, in what form?
It depends on who you talk to. Look up "Universalism," or "Unitarianism."Quote:
Originally Posted by arjue
If God is just, how can He NOT punish people for their transgressions?Quote:
2) If god is just, then why can a person recieve eternal, unimaginably terrible punishment based on things they did in the span of 80 years or so?
Condemnation and damnnation are very much a part of justice.
Yes, I believe in evil. It takes all forms, but rest assured, the evil purpotrated by man originates in, and flows through, man.Quote:
3) do you believe in Evil, and if so, in what form?
Jester, Nick and I have already discussed this to it's logical conclusion in a private arena. As such, I doubt he's going to respond, if not for that, then for his extended abscence on the boards.
Personally I think Jesus was/is a pretty cool person. I believe in just about everything he says but I really can't stand most christians (especially those that mix it with right wing views) so I really don't want to associate myself with them. Jesus was a really tolerant good man, he didn't despise the thieves, adulterers or homosexuals, he loved everyone and wanted to help them, yet christians are generally intolerant and full of contempt for so many. Jesus said barely anything in reference to homosexuality yet for the church this seems to be a big issue. Besides the Bible is way too open to interpretation, I mean I am vegan so I could say 'Thou shalt not kill' is in reference to all living things and the inconsistencies/contradictions in the Bible are legion. Although i'm not christian I have no fear of hell or any or that guilt shit that some christians try to pull because I know Jesus was/is a safe geezer and would totally be able to understand my perspective as he is a tolerant and forgiving man.
Oh and this whole sin business is the biggest crock of shit ever, this whole idea that we are constantly sinning, living inpure lives. Fuck that, spare me the guilt trip. I don't rape, murder, steal etc so IMO I don't sin. Things like that turn me off religion, I like lots of different bits of them and use them to form my own morals. I apply the same to politics, although I consider my views to be centre left, I listen to all the parties instead of having tunnel vision.
But yeah I respect Jesus for what he said and did, not for what he is or isn't. I don't have faith, just love. Church is boring also, I don't care for 500 year old songs and the vicar's witless little anecdotes that only the over 40 crowd laugh at. This doesn't really add much to the discussion but whatever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arjue
1) I never said those that were/are ignorant of God go to heaven. I said those that are like children, are innocent and may or may not be ignorant. I believe everyone recieves a fair shake at believing in God. Everyone will have a devine appointment with God, where he'll stand at your heart and knock. I'm not Christ or His personal secretary so I can't tell you when it is for all people. I do know that there is an afterlife, a final Judgement, that God says that the people that see and believe will be blessed, and that it is His will that none shall perish, so I'm rather certain everyone will get there chance to accept or reject Christ from their heart. I do know that intellectually arguing the things of the spirit will never convence anyone, and I merely sought to answer Nick's Question of "is God just?" I believe everyone here that is Christian came to Christ not out of being logicaly convinced of no other possibilities, but being spiritually persuaded to except God's love.
2) The Good Cap'n hit this one on the head. Life is a gift of incredible magnitude. To squander it in a self-serving and self centered ways is wrong.
3) Once again the Captain answered as I would have. I also believe that there is evill forced upon people though, by other men and to a degree Satan. But in the same context that Jesus said to be like children, he also said woe to the people that corrupt children and make them stumble.
Sidez, It's good to see that you appreciate Jesus the man. Most people except for the extremely bitter will admit that He lead a good life. It's Jesus the God that is hard for most to accept. And there is no logiacla conclusion to lead people to faith in Him.
I'd like to think I was innocent of sin as well. I am innocent of the actual acts of murder ,rape and theft as you are. The Bible though, outlines more than just those three as sins and even warns of wishing these things in your heart as being sin. I can't logically persuade you to believe in sin anymore than I can to have you believe in Christ as God. However, can you honostley say that in your life that you've never once done something your ashamed of, something wrong for the wrong reason? It's not about guilt as most believers should accept God's forgiveness and be free of guilt, it's about being in need of God's forgiveness.
I whole heartedly agree that church services can be boring. I however don't go to church to be entertained or convenced of what I believe. I go there to make friends and worship God. The Church was designed as a social club for fellowship amongst believers, not the Christian equivalant of Jewish Temple.
Everyone fucks up somewhere along the line, it's the 'we are constantly sinning everyday' thing that I think is outright bullshit. I've talked to christians about it (hell I even went to some discussion groups and meetings, it's something that genuinelly interests me) and some have said that there all sorts of sins and a sin is a sin, no shades of grey. Well if God is indeed perfect then he isn't a petty guy and is smart enough to realise that not holding the door for someone is not nearly as bad as murder. I just don't like this concept of accepting that I am somehow flawed and constantly doing bad things everyday because IMO I certainly do not. Not arrogance, i'm just a polite 19yo kid who wouldn't hurt a fly (literally, I just let them back outside).