The State of Capcom Today

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This is pretty interesting because Capcom's future seems so uncertain to me at the moment.

I don't have many problems with outsourcing their properties such as with DmC, Strider 3, and Lost Planet 3 when they turn out well and Capcom still has some bright spots in stuff like DmC, Monster Hunter, Dragon's Dogma, Phoenix Wright, and Street Fighter IV. However after visionaries like Inaba, Mikami, Kamiya, Inafune left they never really recovered creatively and I think many people will agree that the company feels largely like a shell of it's former self.

Granted they do try new IP's but they're kind of all over the place in terms of consistency and it's weird to me that along with new IP's they've not tried to make more usage of their previously established franchises like Megaman, Onimusha, & Breath of Fire. They also have Dino Crisis, Ghosts & Goblins, Viewtiful Joe, and Rival Schools which I would love to see more of but they haven't done much with those either. The Resident Evil games are a mixed bag, after 4 the series never really made any leaps in innovation nor was the tone consistent with what went before until Resident Evil Revelations which felt a little more closer to form.

Developers like Platinum (Wonderful 101, Bayonetta, Metal Gear Rising, Vanquish), EA Redwood Shores (Dead Space), and maybe even the upcoming The Evil Within by Mikami have basically been beating them at their own game in terms of fun stylish action games and survival horror respectively so how do you guys see the company and what should they do?

Personally speaking I think they should keep going with Ninja Theory on DmC, release collections of their older RE games or remake them, develop a new Breath of Fire JRPG, and revive Megaman again as a start.

Mikami was all that was left at Capcom after the 16-bit generation. Once he left, they should have closed the doors. I've been varying degrees of disappointed with everything I've played from them since, except Revelaitons, which seemed to channel him. He was involved with roughly half of everything you listed: Devil May Cry, Phoenix Wright, Onimusha, Dino Crisis, Viewtiful Joe, Resident Evil, etc.

I don't know who they have left. They do have a nice hold on fighters. Stretch that out to all platforms, microtransation the hell out of optional junk that people seem to go apeshit over, try to hit one or two big non-FPS action games and relegate the rest to small projects

I bet if Capcom still had Inaba, Mikami, Kamiya, and Inafune; it still would feel like a shell of its former self.
Those guys are all old guard.
You say that after 4, Resident Evil hasn't made any leaps in innovation, but it took 4 games before 4 released in order to get to that innovation.
Capcom just needs to find this gen's Inaba, Mikami, Kamiya, and Inafune.

It's not just Capcom though. Look at what Konami, Square Enix, Sega, Nintendo, etc. have been publishing that wasn't outsourced to the west. Take away LoS, TR/DE/HM, S&ASRT, MP, etc. and what is left that is all that compelling? Namco lucked into Dark Souls and, to a lesser extent, Ni no Kuni domestically, but they didn't develop them.

Platinum is about all there is. Cave appears to be on their last legs, and anyone who has played From's other games know Demon's/Dark Souls are likely a fluke.

I'm more excited to buy remakes or rereleases of Dungeons & Dragons and Duck Tales than anything new Capcom has made in almost 10 years.

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Originally Posted by Yoshi

Mikami was all that was left at Capcom after the 16-bit generation. Once he left, they should have closed the doors. I've been varying degrees of disappointed with everything I've played from them since, except Revelaitons, which seemed to channel him. He was involved with roughly half of everything you listed: Devil May Cry, Phoenix Wright, Onimusha, Dino Crisis, Viewtiful Joe, Resident Evil, etc.

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That's what's so sad about it, all of their best talent left and are making Capcom'ish games that Capcom itself just doesn't produce anymore.

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Originally Posted by Joust Williams

I don't know who they have left. They do have a nice hold on fighters. Stretch that out to all platforms, microtransation the hell out of optional junk that people seem to go apeshit over, try to hit one or two big non-FPS action games and relegate the rest to small projects

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Street Fighter IV and MVC3 didn't really have ideal graphics for me (would have went cel shaded personally) but they were good revivals of their fighter branch. SFxT looked cool but I think that's been deemed something of a failure for various reasons so If I were them I'd do Capcom vs SNK 3 to replace that and keep going with the previous two since they make good bank off those.

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Originally Posted by Some Stupid Japanese Name

I bet if Capcom still had Inaba, Mikami, Kamiya, and Inafune; it still would feel like a shell of its former self.
Those guys are all old guard.
You say that after 4, Resident Evil hasn't made any leaps in innovation, but it took 4 games before 4 released in order to get to that innovation.
Capcom just needs to find this gen's Inaba, Mikami, Kamiya, and Inafune.

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I agree that they need to find better and newer talent to help bring their franchises back to their old standards but the old guard still produce amazing games at Platinum.

Yea but old guys like to move on, you can't expect these guys to stay happily employed at Capcom their entire careers.

I actually agree it's just that Capcom seems to be really struggling to find people of that caliber internally which is why I guess they outsource some of their stuff these days but it's a real shame.

Amazing games that don't sell. Who needs 'em?
Not a company that's already bleeding cash.

That's a fair point. Almost all of us hold up Platinum is Japan's gold standard, but the grand total of their games' sales wouldn't impress anyone, let alone the individual titles', with the possible exception of the rabid Metal Gear crowd driving Rising.

Though not developed internally, Remember Me by all accounts seems to be a pretty competent game.
Who here bought it?

I am still gonna

The reviews made me hold off (not really for a price drop, I just don't care about playing it that much)

I lost interest in that one the more details were released. It's an example of how western development isn't a sure bet either.

It has a 70 metacritic.
Same as that crappy Vita Creed game you wanted to play. And I would argue Capcom deserves your money more than some rushed afterthought put out by Ubisoft.

I've given Capcom far more money than they deserve I assure you. Having to buy Resident Evil 4 & 5 three and four times before they released a version that played well are good examples.

I think most game companies, like entertainment companies generally, are shells of their former selves.

It's unreasonable to expect a company that was creative and visionary in the 1980's to remain so indefinitely. People get old and leave, and the culture changes. Better to encourage smaller, independent developers to pick up the slack. Capcom included.

I hear a lot of mixed things about Remember Me, it gave off a real P.N. 03 vibe but I didn't buy it personally.

Capcom has had some struggle with revivals unfortunately such as with Maximo and Bionic Commando. I thought both of the Maximo games were great fun since they followed the Ghosts and Goblins style formula in 3D but unfortunately they didn't sell. The Bionic Commando 2009 remake I heard mixed things about and apparently didn't sell very well but Re-armed was fantastic and oddly enough was made by the same studio although I'm unsure about how that and Bionic Commando Rearmed 2 sold.

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Originally Posted by Some Stupid Japanese Name

I bet if Capcom still had Inaba, Mikami, Kamiya, and Inafune; it still would feel like a shell of its former self.
Those guys are all old guard.
You say that after 4, Resident Evil hasn't made any leaps in innovation, but it took 4 games before 4 released in order to get to that innovation.
Capcom just needs to find this gen's Inaba, Mikami, Kamiya, and Inafune.

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It would be a shell anyway because the market just isn't the same. Platinum is - to me - the best developer we've got right now, but their games still don't sell that well despite being technical marvels in execution. Breath of Fire V was both innovative and interesting but even by that point people just didn't care about it.

So much of what I would want for Capcom wouldn't do well for them as a business. I'd like that MegaMan FPS and Legends 3, neither of which would likely tear up sales charts. I'm looking forward to Lost Planet 3 but, again, I don't think it's going to do so hot overall. They do some great stuff with that series but something about it just doesn't catch on the same way that DMC did; it's like this generation's Dino Crisis. They tried a lot of new stuff with RE6 but it looks like it's a combination of not being sure where to go while also trying to experiment (probably the same state Doom 4 is in right now).

Capcom could probably do well for themselves releasing one fighting game every five years or so and supporting it like they did with SFIV, with expansion add-ons and vanity items. Doing more than that is just going to lead to saturation in a genre supported primarily by a comparatively small devout group. DmC seems to be in good hands with Ninja Theory so they should stick with that for now, or maybe even a new Asura's Wrath that's a little more like DMC instead of an anime.

Off the top of my head is the feeling that they need to create a "new" property linked to an old one, like what they did with MegaMan X and ZX but to a larger degree. Take something like the MegaMan universe and create what appears to be a wholly new world and style of gameplay, don't give it the name of the old series, but then just include nods and hints that indicate its in the future or some such. Imagine taking something like Vanquish and including information in the game that reveals it's also like 100 years in the future from the original MegaMan (yes, I know MM has a crazy long history written out with all the games, just an example). Fake edit: The Maximo games are actually exactly the kind of thing I'm thinking of.

They've been creating new stuff but it doesn't seem to be doing so hot for them. Lost Planet, Dragon's Dogma, and Asura's Wrath all seem to be struggling properties, with only Dead Rising having gone anywhere.

Dragon's Dogma did alright, but I really think they should have put it on the PC. I think the RPG audience would've been quite receptive on that platform.

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Originally Posted by MechDeus

Off the top of my head is the feeling that they need to create a "new" property linked to an old one, like what they did with MegaMan X and ZX but to a larger degree. Take something like the MegaMan universe and create what appears to be a wholly new world and style of gameplay, don't give it the name of the old series, but then just include nods and hints that indicate its in the future or some such. Imagine taking something like Vanquish and including information in the game that reveals it's also like 100 years in the future from the original MegaMan (yes, I know MM has a crazy long history written out with all the games, just an example). Fake edit: The Maximo games are actually exactly the kind of thing I'm thinking of.

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I love this idea and also thought of Maximo as you were describing what you want before I got to the end and saw it came to you too.

Resident evil 6 leon's campaign was really good actually. Just food for thought.

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Originally Posted by Diff-chan

Dragon's Dogma did alright, but I really think they should have put it on the PC. I think the RPG audience would've been quite receptive on that platform.

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I think what really killed it was the no multiplayer. It looked like it was going to be this awesome console Monster Hunter type game with the group hunting, but then it turned out the groups were just dumb AI followers. Bad move.

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Originally Posted by Some Stupid Japanese Name

Though not developed internally, Remember Me by all accounts seems to be a pretty competent game.
Who here bought it?

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I got it day one, I'm a fan of it. Need to finish though but that's just my personal issue with games.

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Originally Posted by MechDeus

I think what really killed it was the no multiplayer. It looked like it was going to be this awesome console Monster Hunter type game with the group hunting, but then it turned out the groups were just dumb AI followers. Bad move.

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I think they've missed out on just about every opportunity to capitalize on the online maket. Every single fighting game they've made is underdeveloped garbage online. Nothing in Dragons Dogma. No Monster Hunter on PS3/360. PSO2 stranded in Japan. It's so silly. Cut that 600 man RE6 dev team and hire some network engineers or something.

Isn't there some standardized network middleware companies can use?
If not, why?

Didn't somebody at Capcom try to rationalize it by saying they wanted all of the network games to feel different? Or something to that extent. I've never understood it.

Those were their fighting games. And they did try middleware GGPO but they still need to both work on a standard and use it for more of their games.

SSF4AE had a baseline acceptability in terms of online features and how well it worked. Unfortunately it's also by far the best setup they got. No excuse for SFxT and UMVC3's shoddy work.

Look at games like SC2 and DOTA2, good online features sell themselves.

Much easier to compensate for lag in those sorts of games, but perhaps you are referring to match search time? Also remember, searching 1 min for a 25 min game is considerably more acceptable than searching 1 min for a 2 min game.

Search options more than anything for me. After SFIV they were oddly automated, a waste of time and really hit or miss.

P4A did it right.

Or maybe it didn't, I really can't remember now that I think about it.

P4A was about as bad as usual. Not the worst, not great.

Overall, networking for their fighters has been lacking, but honestly that's not the reason why Capcom has been shitty lately. The general 'better online support is needed' is a legitimate reason, but their fighters work well enough that the majority of people will be happy with it.

GGPO did it right. I still can't believe how amazing some of those games played.

My main issue is I want the game to do a search and then plop down a list with some latency indicators so I can pick myself. If it's press a button and wait while we do it so you fight the same Ken 30 times a night, no, fuck you.

I don't know what the deal with capcom, or other japanese developers is.

If south Korean companies can rake in the $$$ for free online games and the like, why can't they?

Speaking of online games, where the fuck is my MMO dragon quest?

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Originally Posted by Darmonde

P4A was about as bad as usual. Not the worst, not great.

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What on earth are you talking about. P4A was GREAT. They gave you 100% control over the search filters OR let you just pick from a goddamn list. And they let you select your character before matchmaking. Only thing they still got wrong was not listing pings but at least their netcode was good enough that it wasn't the end of the world if you didn't only choose from A's.

And adding to what Anthony said, there's a world of difference between matchmaking for long session games and fighters. Quick turnaround between matches should be one of the top priorities. I wonder if there are some limitations on XBL & PSN that keep this stuff from getting better. I think Soul Calibur had some good ideas like immediately searching for matches at the win/loss screen. I mean, I mostly play UMvC3 right now and all I do is play player matches because the matchmaking is so bad.

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Originally Posted by Some Stupid Japanese Name

Though not developed internally, Remember Me by all accounts seems to be a pretty competent game.
Who here bought it?

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It's a flawed but enjoyable game. People rightly complain about the handholding, auto-platforming, QTEs, etc.. but for some reason other modern games get a complete pass for pulling the same shit (hello Uncharted). At least Remember Me has better atmosphere than most of those and some neat memory hacking parts.

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Originally Posted by FirstBlood

What on earth are you talking about. P4A was GREAT. They gave you 100% control over the search filters OR let you just pick from a goddamn list. And they let you select your character before matchmaking. Only thing they still got wrong was not listing pings but at least their netcode was good enough that it wasn't the end of the world if you didn't only choose from A's.

And adding to what Anthony said, there's a world of difference between matchmaking for long session games and fighters. Quick turnaround between matches should be one of the top priorities. I wonder if there are some limitations on XBL & PSN that keep this stuff from getting better. I think Soul Calibur had some good ideas like immediately searching for matches at the win/loss screen. I mean, I mostly play UMvC3 right now and all I do is play player matches because the matchmaking is so bad.

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I'm not sure why P4A would count as GREAT if you think all capcom netcode is the worst ever.

The player match search filters are better, definitely. But when you start talking about ranked vs player matches you get into a bunch of other random shit because companies do/don't want you to be able to cheat the stupid rank system. That's more a decision based on ranking than ease of use. Choosing your character before matchmaking is interesting, but I wouldn't really say that makes it better or worst. That also only happened on ranked matches, not player. Searching for matches isn't really great, but that might be because no one plays P4A on 360.

The netcode is probably better than marvel but its bad enough that I drop things that require any sort of timing. Faster games suffer more online, which is probably why I think SF4 is decent but marvel isn't.

I'd be interested in Capcom vs SNK 3. If we get one, I just hope it's free of SFxT exclusive gem syndrome, and that Shinkiro does the ingame character illustrations.

GIVE ME CVS3 NOW

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Originally Posted by Josh

GIVE ME CVS3 NOW

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Only if SNK makes it.

No thanks.

A Capcom-made CvS3 would be a travesty. It would break my heart to see a Howard or Bogard derping around in the SFIV engine.

SNK made a vs game. Remember?

They made KOF 13, which is beautiful 2D next to Capcom's ugly engine. Made a great game as well.

KOF13 was awesome, but I'm not convinced that it wasn't a fluke.

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Originally Posted by A Robot Bit Me

A Capcom-made CvS3 would be a travesty. It would break my heart to see a Howard or Bogard derping around in the SFIV engine.

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While I agree, I still want it so bad. I just want to be able to ride off into the sunset playing as my favorite character against my friends favorite characters.

SNK would probably do better with SvC2 than they did with Chaos. It'd still be awhile off due to the Capcom fighters being essentially new to their KOF XIII engine.

Knowing Capcom is done with 2D, a 3D CVS3 is better than none at all... uh wait. Get (Un)real, and have Arc System Works help instead of Dimps or 8ing. No Samurai Shodown Sen characters though- use their SSVSpecial versions instead.

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Originally Posted by gameoverDude

I'd be interested in Capcom vs SNK 3. If we get one, I just hope it's free of SFxT exclusive gem syndrome, and that Shinkiro does the ingame character illustrations.

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Originally Posted by Josh

GIVE ME CVS3 NOW

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Originally Posted by gameoverDude

Knowing Capcom is done with 2D, a 3D CVS3 is better than none at all... uh wait. Get (Un)real, and have Arc System Works help instead of Dimps or 8ing. No Samurai Shodown Sen characters though- use their SSVSpecial versions instead.

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Yes to all of this.

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Originally Posted by Josh

SNK made a vs game. Remember?

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Originally Posted by GohanX

KOF13 was awesome, but I'm not convinced that it wasn't a fluke.

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Compare SNK and Capcom's resumes since CvS2 (2001):

SNK*:
KoF2002 - one of the best games ever
SvC Chaos - garbage
KoF2003 - excellent
KoF Max Impact - terrible
KoF '94 Rebout - great
KoF Max Impact Regulation A - good
NGBC - mediocre
KoFXI - masterpiece
KoF '98 UM - genius
KoF2002 UM - brilliant
KoF XII - not good, but better than its reputation
KoFXIII - one of the best games ever

Four of SNK's last five games destroy anything Capcom has released since CvS2.


Capcom:
Capcom Fighting Jam - lol
SSF2T:HDR - no
SFIV - eh
SSFIV - nah
MvC3 - nuh-uh
SSFIV AE - gtfo
UMvC3 - not bad
SFxT - u srs?



* No idea what's been going on with Samurai Shodown

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Originally Posted by A Robot Bit Me

Compare SNK and Capcom's resumes since CvS2 (2001):

SNK*:
KoF2002 - one of the best games ever
SvC Chaos - garbage
KoF2003 - excellent
KoF Max Impact - terrible
KoF '94 Rebout - great
KoF Max Impact Regulation A - good
NGBC - mediocre
KoFXI - masterpiece
KoF '98 UM - genius
KoF2002 UM - brilliant
KoF XII - not good, but better than its reputation
KoFXIII - one of the best games ever

Four of SNK's last five games destroy anything Capcom has released since CvS2.


Capcom:
Capcom Fighting Jam - lol
SSF2T:HDR - no
SFIV - eh
SSFIV - nah
MvC3 - nuh-uh
SSFIV AE - gtfo
UMvC3 - not bad
SFxT - u srs?



* No idea what's been going on with Samurai Shodown

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Which KOF introduced duolon? Because that game was hot ass.

Anything above mediocre on your SNK list besides KOFXIII I disagree with (and even that game is more like "really good"), so I'll side with the "fluke" statement.

2k2 was really good

They all kind of blur together to me, to be honest. Once I started playing with some tournament players back in the days of the DC and SNK fighters still bored the hell out of me (outside of brief loves with MOTW and LB2), I just accepted that their games will never do it for me. But KOFXIII sure comes close.

I didn't realize ARBM was Mexican.

Did everyone forget that CVS, CVS Pro, and CVS2 are POS? SVC was released in an unfinished beta state because that's all old SNK had developed and the new team weren't up the task of completing it.

I bought Remember Me for retail PC but it's flawed, feels like Assassin's Creed 1 in a way.

I only take issue with '94 Rebout. The 3D stages look like shit, the arranged BGM sucks, and there's almost nothing else added to the game. I still like KoF XII, even though XIII makes it completely redundant. "Serect you membah. Serect the odor."

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Originally Posted by Diff-chan

I didn't realize ARBM was Mexican.

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Estoy usando Iori ja ja ja ja ja

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Originally Posted by Shou

Did everyone forget that CVS, CVS Pro, and CVS2 are POS? SVC was released in an unfinished beta state because that's all old SNK had developed and the new team weren't up the task of completing it.

I bought Remember Me for retail PC but it's flawed, feels like Assassin's Creed 1 in a way.

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CvS2 had its flaws, but I would hardly call it pos. At high high level yes, but at anything under that it was really fun. Plus it had the most fun version of rock Howard!

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Originally Posted by Diff-chan

I didn't realize ARBM was Mexican.

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I wasn't always, but Capcom's last decade of output pushed me to the lado oscuro.

When I look back at the games that really define classic Capcom for me, half of them were developed by Mitchell. Other than that, all they have is Street Fighter and Resident Evil, neither of which are in very good shape these days.

Cry all we want, Street fighter 4 did the most important and impressive thing I have EVER seen a fighting game do. It took fighting game fundamentals and made them accessible. Or at least 45 times more accessible than ever before. It made casual people actually, to some degree, play fighting games the way they were designed in a relatively short amount of time. It's really incredible, I was very impressed.

That being said, for someone who actually plays fighting games it is slow, plodding, and had no semblance of an entertaining offense. But the game wasn't meant for us. It wasn't designed for us to play and that's ok! Evo wouldn't be getting 130k views if it were.

I don't think SF4 is accessible, though. Especially compared to something like TTT2. It's a really complex game with mechanics like FADC that are not easy to grasp.

I still think the game blew up because it had the original cast.

It's a good game, I enjoy playing it, but man, those Evo streams were brutal. The game just is not that much fun to watch.

They've done a good job of milking it, too.
The game released in arcades 5 years ago, and they still have at least one more version in the pipeline.
For comparison, it took less than three years to go from World Warrior to Super Turbo, and that involved actual system changes and not just tweaks and character packs.

I'm happy that Ono managed to make it all happen, and I do enjoy SF4, but I get the feeling that the suits only agreed to it because they liked the iterative business model that the series is known for.

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Originally Posted by Diff-chan

I don't think SF4 is accessible, though. Especially compared to something like TTT2. It's a really complex game with mechanics like FADC that are not easy to grasp.

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You don't have to utilize FADCs to start playing and Tekken has moves with ridiculously stricter requirements than anything in SFIV. SFIV loosened up the inputs and made the game a shit ton easier for new players to actually start playing and consistently pull off moves, especially on a pad. It was perfect both for new people and those who loved SFII back in the day and came back with atrophied skills.

Not even just that. SF in general, and SF4 especially is very accessible in a lot of different ways.

Every fighting game breaks down in the highest level play. Unfortunately, most opinions come from people who talk about tiers and watch matches at the highest level, but don't actually play there. It makes for a lot of noise.

For the people playing at the 20-90% level, SF4 is very accessible. Its obvious what does damage, what buttons people are pressing, and what hits high and low.

Tekken is the complete opposite. It has a lot of normals moves, and it's not intuitive which button combination does what. The animations don't always match visually with highs, lows and mids. And its hard to know without experience what moves are safe and unsafe.

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Originally Posted by Diff-chan

I don't think SF4 is accessible, though. Especially compared to something like TTT2. It's a really complex game with mechanics like FADC that are not easy to grasp.

I still think the game blew up because it had the original cast.

It's a good game, I enjoy playing it, but man, those Evo streams were brutal. The game just is not that much fun to watch.

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Yeah what mech said to a degree. If you want to dp, you can dp out of situations whenever. The focus attacks and FADC's are nice, but not necessary to play. Links are good, but you can still just do HP-> DP and get good damage. I have seen people advance to the point of actually playing a fighting game much, much faster than they do in other games. Soul Calibur for example is "accessible" in the sense that people can play and do relatively well fairly easy. But the accessibility I was talking about is a game that forces you to learn spacing and risks and mindgames easily. I think SF4 is an incredible example of that. SF2 WOULD be, but throws are too strong and dp's are too hard and important. SF4 basically took the fundamentals from SF2 but made dps super easy and throws weak.

Tekken also has glacially slow walk speeds and limited mobility, as well as a lot of nonsensical juggling and kicking air.

Fair enough.

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Originally Posted by Diff-chan

(re: SFIV) I still think the game blew up because it had the original cast.

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Likely the reason SF III didn't catch on quite as well. "Only TEN fighters? WTF!?!?" "What, no more ______? No way." I'm not saying "Be like Tekken & World Heroes, keep everyone"- but maybe another 4 characters from SSFIIT should've stayed for New Generation (In that case, I'd have picked Chun-Li, Blanka, Zangief, & E.Honda to join Ryu & Ken) to make the roster 14.

The Revenge system should be reworked so comebacks are not TOO easy. Instead of enabling you to totally decimate an opponent with the Ultra combo, it should give some more subtle perk like moderately increased damage or faster Super charging for a limited time. Have the Ultra combos stay in, but require 2 super levels to use them.

It wouldn't surprise me if there is another SFIV beyond Ultra. And if there is? Bring in Alex.

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Originally Posted by gameoverDude

Likely the reason SF III didn't catch on quite as well. "Only TEN fighters? WTF!?!?" "What, no more ______? No way." I'm not saying "Be like Tekken & World Heroes, keep everyone"- but maybe another 4 characters from SSFIIT should've stayed for New Generation (In that case, I'd have picked Chun-Li, Blanka, Zangief, & E.Honda to join Ryu & Ken) to make the roster 14.

The Revenge system should be reworked so comebacks are not TOO easy. Instead of enabling you to totally decimate an opponent with the Ultra combo, it should give some more subtle perk like moderately increased damage or faster Super charging for a limited time. Have the Ultra combos stay in, but require 2 super levels to use them.

It wouldn't surprise me if there is another SFIV beyond Ultra. And if there is? Bring in Alex.

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Again, there are thousands of ideas for making SFIV a better game. But what it did that SFIII would DEFINITELY not have even with an expanded cast, is got people playing the game the way 2d fighter games are supposed to be played.

I think the revenge system was fine for the idea of giving casual players more incentive to play. I would take away the 450 million frame throw break window before anything in that game.

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Originally Posted by Anthony

Cry all we want, Street fighter 4 did the most important and impressive thing I have EVER seen a fighting game do. It took fighting game fundamentals and made them accessible. Or at least 45 times more accessible than ever before. It made casual people actually, to some degree, play fighting games the way they were designed in a relatively short amount of time. It's really incredible, I was very impressed.

That being said, for someone who actually plays fighting games it is slow, plodding, and had no semblance of an entertaining offense. But the game wasn't meant for us. It wasn't designed for us to play and that's ok! Evo wouldn't be getting 130k views if it were.

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Great post!

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Originally Posted by Anthony

I think the revenge system was fine for the idea of giving casual players more incentive to play. I would take away the 450 million frame throw break window before anything in that game.

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There are games with larger throw break windows, do you mean it hurts this game specifically? I didn't think it was especially long.

Throws still land a lot, and the advantage you get off of a throw is way too good. I never really thought about it, but I would probably like the game a lot more if you could quick rise from a throw. I'd be fine with having a shorter tech time without the hard knockdown.

The problem with throws (which is to some degree hard to see, but easy to feel when you play), is you need REALLY loosey goosey frame traps to stop them. Unless your character has a move that beats low option selects. If I have to trap someone for like 6F, thats a HUGE window to try and catch. During my delay to catch their 3f crouch lk, they could actually mount their offense! Also of mediocre players don't do this, but if you get a feel for how late you can throw break, it is CRAZY hard to open someone up without a dedicated OS throw break beating move.

Luckily, most of the top tiers have this, and the mid-bottom tiers don't.

While I understand your end point, I don't understand your example. Do you mean manually timing counter hit setups is difficult because a cr short is only 3 frame startup?

I can't find data right now, but from what I remember most throws in sf4 are 2 frame startup and 3 frame tech window. Some characters have longer and shorter tech windows by a frame or 2. Can you give an example what game you're thinking of with a better tech window?

I don't like throws in SF4 but I can't really say why, so I'm actually curious.

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Originally Posted by Darmonde

While I understand your end point, I don't understand your example. Do you mean manually timing counter hit setups is difficult because a cr short is only 3 frame startup?

I can't find data right now, but from what I remember most throws in sf4 are 2 frame startup and 3 frame tech window. Some characters have longer and shorter tech windows by a frame or 2. Can you give an example what game you're thinking of with a better tech window?

I don't like throws in SF4 but I can't really say why, so I'm actually curious.

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"You can actually hold any direction on the joystick to Tech a Throw. The only thing that matters is that you hit Light Punch and Light Kick during the window a Throw can be Teched. Every Throw has the same window during which they can be Teched. Right when a Throw connects, you have 7 frames to perform your Counter Throw. "

from the wiki

7 fucking frames. Thats huge. This is if your throw connects AFTER the post guard stun throw invulnerability of likely 3-4 frames (post wakeup is even more frames!). So, you put me in guard stun, I come out, I can wait 10 fucking frames to hit my throw break? In sf (because of two button throws mind you), there is one counter to a throw-break, and that's to counter hit the option select low or standing throw break. (There are a few other options as well which make it more obnoxious, but lets leave it at this for now).

If I think you will throw me as soon as possible, I can break on frame 10. If you want to stop me from teching on frame 10, you have to put out a move that hits me on frame 10 - 13, during the startup of my option select throw break (hopefully, assuming I don't option select backdash or option select focus attack, 2 button throws are stupid). So, in order to do that (assuming you also use a 3f move which nets you low damage) you have to hit an attack at earliest on frame 7. That means I have from from 0-7 to input MY attack, and beat out yours. Or walk up throw you, or walk away, or backdash. After showing people I could tech every throw, they would go for that throw break and I would actually just walk up and throw THEM during their offense. There was no way to open a character up.

The only thing that helps with this is OS low beating moves. Those moves (dive kicks especially), either beat out the active frames of the move so I can't preemptive poke, or also give them +frames to keep going. It's because of this retarded window that the offense is anemic. If throws were in your face brutal, with like a 2 frame break window, shit would feel much faster.

You're right, I was reading the wrong numbers. I'd love to see a comparison between a bunch of games.. I could have sworn people hated sfxt because it was 7, and they reduced it to 5 to match sf4, but I'll have to look into it.

Despite the numbers though, I don't feel like that problem is the length of time. I'm trying not to get too theoretical. I'm going to try and find throw tech info from other games and compare.

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Originally Posted by Darmonde

You're right, I was reading the wrong numbers. I'd love to see a comparison between a bunch of games.. I could have sworn people hated sfxt because it was 7, and they reduced it to 5 to match sf4, but I'll have to look into it.

Despite the numbers though, I don't feel like that problem is the length of time. I'm trying not to get too theoretical. I'm going to try and find throw tech info from other games and compare.

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Theoretical isn't bad if you can see things through, and honestly evaluate the options. Many people are incapable of this so they make arguments about things without really understanding the variables. Why are there even throw break windows? I had something like a 95% throw break window against top players offline, most of those throws I wasn't even anticipating. It was part of my block routine. It shouldn't be like that. If you have post guard stun throw invul, you have given the defender a defensive option to beat the throw attempt.

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Originally Posted by Anthony

Cry all we want, Street fighter 4 did the most important and impressive thing I have EVER seen a fighting game do. It took fighting game fundamentals and made them accessible.

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I'm not going to deny SFIV was exactly what Capcom wanted, but it sure as hell wasn't what I wanted.

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Originally Posted by A Robot Bit Me

I'm not going to deny SFIV was exactly what Capcom wanted, but it sure as hell wasn't what I wanted.

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But maybe it's the reason I am getting Guilty Gear Xrd. And the reason that random people I know from other places want to throw down in street fighter after getting drunk and doing animal tranqs (not recommended). And the reason that I have fantastic stick options available that don't involve me spending 2 hours with a dremmel and an electrical engineering degree.

I mean, I'm not denying the game sucks for a competitive player, but as a fighting game player I think it did way more good than bad.

In somewhat related news, why is the xbox version of cvs2 reviled? And does anyone know where I can get the source code or anything of that nature however these mugen people get it to fix the game to my liking?

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Originally Posted by Anthony

In somewhat related news, why is the xbox version of cvs2 reviled?

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Off the top of my head I think it's because they "fixed" roll cancelling.

"SFIV isn't what I want," would have been more to the point. I love that it revitalized fighting games in 2009. I love that I've cobbled together my last joystick, too. But I'm eager to move on in 2013 and Capcom isn't.

The XB CvS2 is a lot different. Roll cancelling was removed and the ability to cancel specials into supers was added to P-Groove. There were a bunch of lesser, more prosaic tweaks to stuff like normal damage output and meter accumulation rate.

It's not a bad game by any means, but it's not CvS2.

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Originally Posted by A Robot Bit Me

"SFIV isn't what I want," would have been more to the point. I love that it revitalized fighting games in 2009. I love that I've cobbled together my last joystick, too. But I'm eager to move on in 2013 and Capcom isn't.

The XB CvS2 is a lot different. Roll cancelling was removed and the ability to cancel specials into supers was added to P-Groove. There were a bunch of lesser, more prosaic tweaks to stuff like normal damage output and meter accumulation rate.

It's not a bad game by any means, but it's not CvS2.

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I heard that they dicked with hitboxes on blanka and Sagat's crouching fierces. As someone who hasn't really played cvs2 competitively in it's heyday, that all sounds like good changes to me....

SF4 is awesome, even if it's not very good. I can't get anyone to play SF3 or Garou with me, but everyone will throw down in SF4.

I'll throw down in garou! Thought I'm not very good (I play rock =( )

I love every single character in Garou.
SFIII never took off because Street Fighter Alpha exists and is actually fun. I love SF3TS, but New Generation is boring and Second Impact is merely a step in the right direction.

My biggest gripe is 3s has some of the most useless fireballs ever to hit a fighting game due to the parry system. Fireballs are alot of what makes a 2d fighter a 2d fighter.

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Originally Posted by Anthony

Theoretical isn't bad if you can see things through, and honestly evaluate the options. Many people are incapable of this so they make arguments about things without really understanding the variables. Why are there even throw break windows? I had something like a 95% throw break window against top players offline, most of those throws I wasn't even anticipating. It was part of my block routine. It shouldn't be like that. If you have post guard stun throw invul, you have given the defender a defensive option to beat the throw attempt.

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I wasn't having much luck finding info on throw break windows. The throw startup in SFxT was 7 frames (instead of 3 in SF4) which in turn increased the window, but I couldn't find info on post throw. Tekken, BB and P4A all have much larger windows.

I think I finally understand what you mean though. You just want to be able to punish people for trying to mindlessly cr tech, and the window is too large for that to be consistent (because they could inadvertently vary when they input that cr tech), correct? I can see now how lowering that window might have that affect, and I'm good with that.

I thought you were saying it was too long meaning it was too easy to see and react to throws.

Yeah, it's exactly that. 10f is still too fast to react reliably. But I don't see why you need a throw break at all, I have never really gotten a satisfactory reasoning behind that. I guess if people want to make the game slower, put in a throw break. And I could see why that would be appealing to newer players.

3d games are a different beast, throws serve a difference purpose because they usually have a very robust mixup game, and throws have to be broken 1 of 3 ways. BB and P4A not only have much better mixups, but they also have very weird throws iirc (in bb i think you can throw midcombo for a reset?)

A throw is one part of a mixup game, except in SF4 on rushdown it is almost all of it. This is why, if your only option to open someone up is to throw, you better have a good throw or the game is going to seem sloooooow.

(SF2 and GGXX have 0f throws).

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Originally Posted by Anthony

My biggest gripe is 3s has some of the most useless fireballs ever to hit a fighting game due to the parry system. Fireballs are alot of what makes a 2d fighter a 2d fighter.

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3s is my favorite fighting game because it lets me beat players who are worse than me. You are not allowed to just run a block string trap pattern, if you are predictable you will lose.

At high level play the game is broken and stupid, because you have to resort to pretty silly random poking games, and cr mk super. But it's amazing at the level just below 'win at all costs'.

Another negative is if you are not on a very close skill level as your opponent, the match will be a blow up, and not really fun for anyone.

I love 3s throws, to merge these 2 topics. There's a throw break but I don't feel like it slows the game down too much. I think any game with f+attack throws probably has 0f throws because that might be the only way it works? Or maybe 1f, I have a vague memory of a game that would give you a whiff throw animation even though it was a f+attack... cvs2?

I prefer 2 button throws but I can see why people would like the other.

cvs2 does that yeah.

So, about the state of Capcom... :p

lol it aint good

Looking at this gen DLC shenanigans aside I guess Capcom didn't do so bad:

DmC
Bionic Commando Re-Armed
Dragon's Dogma
Asura's Wrath
Street Fighter IV (Pick your edition)

Tatsunoko vs Capcom was pretty good, too.

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Originally Posted by Will

Looking at this gen DLC shenanigans aside I guess Capcom didn't do so bad:

DMC4
Bionic Commando Re-Armed
Dragon's Dogma
Asura's Wrath
Street Fighter IV (Pick your edition)

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Fixed.

I still maintain that 1/3 of resident evil 6 was good.

I like Resident Evil 6. It's a perfectly cromulent third person action game.

They're ditching GFWL in favour of Steamworks for the PC port of Ultra Street Fighter IV, and planning to release it around the same time as the console game.
I have to give credit for that.