Having statues of anyone is tacky.
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Having statues of anyone is tacky.
Not really. He'll go after "bad hombres", Rose O'Donnell, Clinton, Nordstrom's, "fake news", a bunch of those nonsense ad nauseum, but he cant denounce Nazism. That shows the country where he stands on the issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshi
Worth a reminder that Trump's equivocating isn't coming from nowhere and that there's more at stake than Just Words here:https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...0995865798.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...a196a7d357.jpg
What are we doing as a society to encourage terrorism?
I'm going to use Hellenistic Greece as an example, because that's what I'm reading. When Alexander died, Greece erupted into chaos. You had not only every ethnicity of the known world which Greece had conquered in Greece at this time, but the Greek city states themselves were now at odds as everyone fought for power. There was murder, assassination, war, but no mention of terrorism. No one running a chariot into a crowd at the marketplace; no one throwing vases of flaming oil at people on the street, an archer going into a school and plucking off students. Greece was a society of passionate ideas and people held to high regard for their love to argue, but they never allowed that passion to escalate to violence toward the society. What are we doing today to encourage our arguments to turn violent to society at large?
Terrorism is a crime born out of mass media. It stands to reason that it would evolve to reflect the way the internet spreads information.
Good point. I was looking at technology changing, but weapons. We've had ways to unsuspectingly kill people quickly since bows and fire, but the television and Internet coincide with modern terrorism which has rapidly increased over the past 20 years.
It's a desperate and futile tactic used by people too impotent to wage actual war on their perceived enemy.
Their only option is some form of psychological warfare.
Is their perceived enemy not society? The idea the general public is complacent with whatever laws or behaviors the government or society as a whole does? Should we draw a line between the government, military and civilians? Or when you don't like something is anyone fair game?
I'm curious if the car striker hit people from both sides, or was specifically targeting an antifa bloc. We actually don't know anything more than he happened to kill a leftist, and he vaguely identified with the alt-right. A self hating Jew, no doubt (mother's name was Bloom.) I have a sneaking suspicion that many of the alt-right individuals ARE a percentage Jewish, and are struggling with what we Jews have been since the beginning of time, our identity. Just a fleeting thought I'd be curious to know the answer to. Jews usually get narrated out of the media spin, it's all blacks versus whites.
Silly Apple things: spellchecks "antifa" to "antics"
One of the things I will casually agree with Yoshi about is Antifa. They are NOT liberal or progressive heroes, they are a group meant to do one thing: show up to rallies and protests and other public gatherings so they can cause trouble in the name of _________. I was mentioning in chat yesterday that one of the biggest issues with BOTH the alt-right and Antifa, is there is no unifying goal in either subset, which to me, indicates a loss of credibility in both. Each "party" does one thing, and one thing alone - shows up to rallies and protests. There is no "antifa community outreach." There is no "alt right center for rural white communities." The ONLY organization that does real, true, 100% community outreach is BLM. And who often gets the brunt of police force? BLM. As usual, the unemployed and underemployed white males cause a ton in damages and get off scott free, while the minorities get stuck with the bill and the deaths. BLM has a clear message and mission, the other two organizations do not. (Though I realized they are a divisive organization for many reasons, but my point is they have an end goal.)
Antifa: ranges from 'democracy is okay' to 'complete anarchism' - doesn't support a single political party, some undoubtedly voted for Trump, some were Bernie die hards. Some support LGBTQ, some are TERFS, some don't give a fuck.
Alt-Right: ranges from Republican to complete fascism - most casually support Trump but many also would like to see a dissolution of the government OR total control. Some are complete Libertarians, want legalized everything. Some want complete control over rights.
So, similar to OWS, both these organizations are destined to go absolutely nowhere except to public gatherings where they dress up like LARPers and we can all watch the media circus. I support both parties willing to die for their cause - that is their right, as americans - but I ask, is it worth it? If the answer is yes, then we agree that this outcome of death and destruction is a desired one. By all accounts, the alt-right rally was organized with the purpose of violence in mind, I mean, who else would bring shields to a rally to demonstrate ideas only? If either of these organizations hope to truly invoke change, they will drop the costumes and rally like BLM is. But, I'm sure they will both go the way of OWS and The Tea Party, and we can expect useless casualties along the way.
It seems that he was definitely targeting the counter-protesters. He was at the rally that day and marched with Vanguard America.Quote:
Originally Posted by Satsuki
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DHFDiy7VwAAi0Jr.jpg
Interesting! Do we know about the other victims though? I know he prob was targeting the counter-protestors, but it seems like there was quite a bit of mixing in the scuffle. Not to excuse the behavior, he absolutely should get a first degree murder charge. I was just curious.
For first degree the prosecution would have to prove that he had planned this, which would be much easier if he had an actual weapon instead of his car. As it is, the second degree charge is a home run, guy is going away for a while. With first degree there is a risk of acquittal which would be a disaster.
They'll go for 1st, so they can escalate it for political reasons.
Good thing for him he's a white supremacist so he'll get protection in jail. Those guys will really respect him for being a presumably middle class fat white jock who was hardcore enough to walk the streets with a citronella candle from his mum's Tahiti themed pool area; those guys in jail are the real deal, they're totally not criminals who take up white supremacy opportunistically to survive in jail, so I'm sure he'll fit right in.
I wish people would stop saying 'alt-right'
Good point.Quote:
Originally Posted by GohanX
Now if they search his social media accounts and find a post that says he was gonna do it, instant upgrade to murder 1.
Cars are better weapons than guns.
That's not necessarily true. Premeditation doesn't have to be "he planned it" it just has to mean he had a certain level-headed intent. Second degree is usually reserved for "crime of passion" situations where there's a provocation and an immediate reaction. Targeting innocent people from inside your car would be unlikely to meet that standard.Quote:
Originally Posted by GohanX
For Joust
CNNQuote:
Originally Posted by Tangerine
Wonder what took him so long. Too late, damage done.
Maybe he was waiting for empirical evidence and not reacting off emotionally driven speculation? It took Obama 8 years, 48 hrs is quite an improvement.
Nope, not forced at all. He spoke right from the heart...Quote:
Originally Posted by CNN
Look, I'm not going to debate this with you. In half an hour he ripped into a guy by name who quit his shitty council (who quit because of his shitty response BTW). He is quick to do this with everything that is totally meaningless, like a petulant child. But Russia and Nazis? Nah "both sides", and then a couple days later "Um I guess".Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Holliday
Who needs empirical evidence to denounce white supremacists?
Anyone not driven by emotional tantrums like a child?
There no difference between what the left is doing today than what thier ancestors did 300 years ago in the witch hunts.
Then Trump's disqualified.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Holliday
Also, let's not pretend that he was carefully analyzing the evidence. It wasn't until white supremacists basically came out and thanked him online for not condemning them that he made that weak statement explicitly naming them.
We all have this innate desire to simply issues into black & white dichotomies so we can understand them, but that is never the case. Every issue has multiple components and varying degrees between positions. If you can understand a gender spectrum, surely you can understand a political or moral spectrum. That is why judgment and time to let emotions subside is imperative to forming well-made, thoughtful decisions.
Damn I have been gotten again
We're talking about Nazism here. What moral spectrum applies to it?
The 4chan schtick is getting really old.
Trust me. I'm fully aware of my hypocrisy in assuming Trump acts on any level of maturity rather than appealing to his base.Quote:
Originally Posted by Melf
The witch hunt of labeling who is and isn't a Nazi in false dichotomies of a black and white context.Quote:
Originally Posted by Melf
I apologize for trying to help you think critically, rather than react off gut feelings like peering into Putin's eyes and seeing his soul while drinking a cold one with George W Bush.Quote:
Originally Posted by bbobb
I never know where Doc and I actually agree versus where he's trolling or I'm just pontificating.
He's just trolling at all times.
Literally shaking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Holliday
Doc provides a mirror, not a thesis.
I see your point, but I think it was pretty clear who was a supremacist in this case. The monogrammed shirts, swastika armbands, and Nazi salutes kind of gave it away.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Holliday
Sats hit the nail on the head with calling these guys larpers. They want to rule and be empowered but they're just a bunch of Alfred Lickspittles crawling on their bellies, pretending to be powerful villains of the past. They aren't even the star scream to megatron. They're the mail away camera bot or the dollar store copy of the two dudes that folded in the middle and then flipped. Throttle bots bootlegs.
Not sure the motivation here, but I did just literally see this posted unironically on the Facebook.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Holliday
It's because I'm moody and don't always hold up the shtick.Quote:
Originally Posted by Satsuki
Yeah, these guys are self-identifying as Nazis, but the left also calls anyone who voted Trump, sings an NWA song out loud or questions immigration a Nazi. The intolerance on both sides is preventing any productive dialogue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Melf
I'm not sure how I feel about the southern people upset about the Robert E Lee thing being conflated with the Nazis who are also present. Lie down with the dogs you get fleas I guess?
They're GoBots!Quote:
Originally Posted by Fe 26
I would say rocklords, but I liked those. The hunk of gold and the hunk of silver were my favorites. And the green one.
For the "counter-protestors are just as bad as the protestors" crowd:
Sounds like a real monster. Good riddance, amirite?Quote:
RUCKERSVILLE, Va. ― Susan Bro sat in her darkened home on Sunday, tearing up as she smiled.
She was thinking fondly of her daughter, 32-year-old Heather Heyer, who was killed in Charlottesville, Virginia, the day before, when a man drove his car into protesters against the “Unite the Right” rally, a gathering of white supremacist groups.
Heather, a paralegal who lived in Charlottesville, was determined to stand up to injustice, her mother told HuffPost. There was no question that she would protest throngs of neo-Nazis and other extremists who had descended on her town.
“She always had a very strong sense of right and wrong. She always, even as a child, was very caught up in what she believed to be fair,” Bro said. “Somehow I almost feel that this is what she was born to be, is a focal point for change. I’m proud that what she was doing was peaceful. She wasn’t there fighting with people.”
She recalled that her daughter was charitable and reached out to the underprivileged. Bro said Heather used to invite friends who were “having a hard time” to stay with them, sometimes for months. Anyone who needed help received it from Heather, Bro said.
Others who knew Heyer expressed similar sentiments. A neighbor in Charlottesville told HuffPost that “she lived her life like her path ― and it was for justice.” A GoFundMe page set up in Heyer’s name by a family friend said that Heyer was killed “while protesting against hate.”
Virginia Gov. Terry McAuliffe (D) sent a message of support to Heyer’s family and said that “her bravery should inspire us all to come together.”
James Fields Jr., 20, was arrested and charged with second-degree murder over the crash. Fields was in Charlottesville attending the “Unite the Right” rally and was photographed with a shield bearing a white supremacist emblem hours before the attack.
“I think he’s still very young, and I’m sorry he believed that hate could fix problems. Hate only brings more hate,” Bro said. “Heather was not about hate, Heather was about stopping hatred. Heather was about bringing an end to injustice.
She began to cry as she added, “I don’t want her death to be a focus for more hatred. I want her death to be a rallying cry for justice and equality and fairness and compassion. I’m very sorry that [Fields] chose that path because he has now ruined his life as well as robbed a great many of us of someone we love very much.”
“No mother wants to lose a child, but I’m proud of her,” she said. “I’m proud of what she did.”
Friends and colleagues echoed Bro’s message.
“Heather was such a sweet soul, and she did not deserve to die,” Marissa Blair, a friend, told The New York Times. She was a “very strong woman” who fought against “any type of discrimination,” added Alfred A. Wilson of the Miller Law Group in Charlottesville, where Heyer worked as a paralegal.
She had a knack for helping people in financial distress, said the firm’s president, Larry Miller. The Miller Law Group handles bankruptcy and debt relief cases, among other matters.
“She’d hold their hand and make sure they would get the stuff in timely, that way we wouldn’t have any issues,” he told the Daily Beast. “She was really good at that.”
“They a lot of times are embarrassed about having to do something like a bankruptcy,” Miller said, “and Heather was always saying, ‘It’s going to be OK.’”
Man, I had this guy before my parents would let me have the expensive transformers
Click for full size
I feel like you're confused about the nature of this rally, which was not so much an issue-focused protest about the statue as it was a much hyped joint effort between a few dozen extremist hate groups, with a lineup of Neo-Nazi speakers, all designed to explicitly promote white nationalism. If there were people there who weren't racist but just wanted to support the statue, they were at the wrong place...Quote:
Originally Posted by YellerDog
It's like looking at a book-burning and saying "But what about the people who were just cold?"
The first thing that jumps out at me is that the other side probably doesn't see themselves as promoters of hate. IRL, cobra and the decepticons do not know they're the bad guys.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bacon McShig
They don't but there's a lack of nuance to how they talk about things, and there's a really harmful tendency to focus on character rather than policy or action.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Holliday
Like, they're content to simply say "This person is a racist" for a comment they made. And that comment might have actually been kinda racist, but in making it about the PERSON and not the action, you put everyone in this iredeemable category, and dismiss them outright. And anyone you do that to isn't going to suddenly see it your way, they're just going to be "Hey, fuck you too." And some might even start to empathize with the other people getting the same attacks leveled at them. It's really destructive.
I don't disagree with the cause of identity politics, but it has to be policy-focused to have any meaning. This culture of "calling out" is a byproduct of social media, and it's totally disconnected from and distracting from actually accomplishing anything to improve the lives of disadvantaged groups.
That's a sweet story, but https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/anecdotalQuote:
Originally Posted by Bacon McShig
Then the news is doing a poor job reporting on it. I'm shocked.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogacuda
Does anyone think he realizes he just described every pre-election "protest" perfectly?Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogacuda
No, wait. Now it's perfect. We needed that free speech suppression reference.Quote:
It's like looking at a book-burning and saying "But what about the people who were just cold?"
I mean if you've got a quantitative scientific measure showing that people unwelcoming of Nazis are mostly just a rabble of unreasonable troublemaking scumbags, then whip it out, you tease.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Holliday
Berkeley? Every jack ass who revels in "Punch a Nazi!"
I argue the guy who punched Richard Spencer and all those who applaud him are responsible for the injuries and death on August 12.
Ok, seriously enough with the 4chan shit, it's gotten beyond old and is just fucking annoying at this point.
Can everyone not fucking reply seriously to anything Doc says anymore, please? The troll feeding has to end at some point.
I'm about ready to put him on ignore.
I know thinking criticality can be tough, but you have to first move past your ego driven superstitions and confirmation bias. Why enslave yourself to unfounded beliefs and poorly guided traditions?Quote:
Originally Posted by bbobb
I wonder what it is about age which makes us grow more religious? Is it fear of death? Is it a nostalgic desire for the state of the awe inspiring perfect universe we believed in as a child?Quote:
Originally Posted by Space Pirate Roberts
Question every belief you have and the position of those you oppose. How did they come to thier beliefs? Without logical fallacy, how can I argue against it?
We are in the political state we are in due an odd combination of insecurity (I'm oppressed!) and ego in one's own beliefs (Die in the Wool Democratic/Republican).
If the media (and everyone here) weren't religiously left, there would be no need for me to argue right. It's the same reason the only intellectual conversation to be had on /pol/ is by trolling to the left.
The world is an amazing place when you can escape your own head.
Ugly, androgynous and blue haired. Are you calling him a feminist?
Remember that time you said Elliot Rodger couldn't be a terrorist because, though his avowed goal was to "punish" women for not being sufficiently subservient (a political reason), more men (civilians) than women (civilians) wound up being injured in Santa Barbara?Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshi
I don't think I would call Elliott Rodger a terrorist. Any more than I would the Virginia Tech killer.
Honestly? No.
Awww, y'all need to let Doc have his fun gorging on sophistry and giant hams. Here you go, buddy, enjoy.
What were thier motivations? If you are taking your hostilities out not on a single individual, business, or government entity, but rather civilian society at large, you are a terrorist.
I want to play too!
http://www.the-nextlevel.com/tnl/att...4&d=1502760534
I'd probably fuck the plastic troll.
We really need to get you out of the south.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fe 26
Did you sustain a head injury during your long absence? I'm the most stalwart free speech proponent you're going to find.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshi
My point is about the messaging behind the rally and who was present. It was organized by far-right white nationalist groups and focused on white nationalist messaging.
That doesn't mean I'm calling everyone in the right Nazis. It's the opposite. I'm saying THIS rally was an actual Nazi rally for people who self-identity as racists and I don't think non-racists would show up to an event that was promoted as openly racist.
That was exactly my point. "Protest" after "protest" during the election cycle was exactly the equivalent on the other side. The greatest irony was that one of their primary aims was to restrict free speech under the banner of anti-fascism, a word exactly zero of them understand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogacuda
Comparing the anti trump protests to FUCKING NAZIS is the most insane shit that has ever been posted on this forum.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshi
I mean seriously, what the fuck is wrong with you? Doc is trolling but you actually believe this shit.
"Fucking Nazis" has great shock value, but that's not what any of those idiots are. "Nazi," like "fascist" or "platformer" or "retro" is a word that actually has a specific meaning, despite what ignoramuses on the internet think. The purpose of all these gatherings, none of which was a protest, was to suppress speech, commit violent acts, and promote fear. The only measurable difference is that one guy will be charged with murder this time, as opposed to many people being charged with things like assault with a deadly weapon.Quote:
Originally Posted by bbobb
No, they were literal Nazis, how is this difficult?
http://www.the-nextlevel.com/tnl/att...5&d=1502762627
They're a little bit young and on the wrong continent. I also doubt they're socialists.Quote:
Originally Posted by bbobb
edit: "Literal" is another good word for my list though.
Yoshi is either trolling or he's a dumb cunt.
Nazis are not and were not socialists. Come on you're not this stupid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshi
Again, we are talking about literal nazis and I am using the term literal correctly.
What the fuck is your point? I was just saying non-Nazis don't go to Nazi protests. If you think there's some great hypocrisy or irony to that statement, I have to seriously question your sanity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshi
So Nazis protesting "white oppression" (or whatever the fuck) is free speech, but counter-protesters protesting Nazis are "restricting free speech?"Quote:
The greatest irony was that one of their primary aims was to restrict free speech under the banner of anti-fascism, a word exactly zero of them understand.
I don't want any group denied by law their right to assemble and demonstrate peacefully based on ideology. But meeting that demonstration with one of your own seems like the best way for a believer in free speech to voice one's objection, don't you think?
Or does "Free speech" mean everyone has to like it/shut up?
I'm just glad for stuff like this
http://www.latimes.com/business/tech...814-story.html
http://www.businessinsider.com/disco...ght-ban-2017-8
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.0009489140fc
https://twitter.com/YesYoureRacist
soon they'll wear hoods again and maybe more people will kick their asses
Free speech is an excuse/shield used too many times incorrectly, free speech is to protect the people from the government stopping criticism against it, like what dictatorships do, what Nazis do. I shouldn't protect people from inciting violence against other groups.
Cool.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshi
I never want to hear the word "jihad" out of a conservative's mouth ever again unless they're talking about people from eighth century Islamic states and their fealty.
Good God. Those poor Japanese. bbobb was teaching English and he doesn't even know the definition of literal. He probably taught everyone "Good Morning" was "You like sucky?"
I don't know what it means where you live but that's what it means up here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Holliday
Rape culture!
Those antifa "fascists" sure look good for having been politically active in Mussolini's Fascist parties in Italy a hundred years ago, huh?
That is infantile reasoning. This is me, a person who revels in trolling people, saying that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Holliday
Yes, thank you calliander for finally admitting all your posts are jokes.
Yes. Exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by A Robot Bit Me
And another council member leaves. Intel drops out of King Douchebag's Klan
http://www.the-nextlevel.com/tnl/att...id=80666&stc=1 http://www.the-nextlevel.com/tnl/att...id=80667&stc=1Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Holliday
Horrible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian Assange
This? Yeah that's pretty bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joust Williams