North Korea admits to having nuclear weapons

[Ichabod]

Good speech about the whole situation:
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarti...44&ItemID=3492

I trust what this guy says, check the credentials:
"Desaix Anderson served for thirty-five year as a Foreign Service Officer, U.S. State Department, working in and on Asian issues, was Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for East Asia and the Pacific (1989-92) and executive director of the Korean Peninsula Energy Development Organization (KEDO) for over three years until April 2001."

Sounds like the Bush administration is (gasp!) fucking it up. That guy James Kelly they sent over there just mimics Bush's confrontational attitude. I've heard elsewhere that he doesn't even have any history of relations with the region.

Also, here's an interesting quote from North Korea (don't know who, exactly): "The Iraqi war shows that to allow disarming through inspection does not help avert a war but rather sparks it. . . . This suggests that even the signing of a nonaggression treaty with the U.S. would not help avert a war."

[Diff-chan]

Ichabod, ultimately, I am pretty sure that the USA just is not going to allow itself to be bullied or blackmailed by North Korea. This is reasonable. North Korea wants food and oil from the USA, and is trying to do this bullshit to get it from us. Its really, really shitty. This is a bad situation, because I dont want the America just to gave in to whatever North Korea wants (the sooner they collapse, the better), but at the same time, I also want this to end. So...

I read somewhere that the "bold new proposal" that North Korea put forth in the recent talks (and the USA flatly rejected) was basically that we start sending them tons of oil, tons of food, and then, sometime after that, North Korea and the USA can negotiate the nuclear weapon thing. Ha! Think that's a GOOD arrangement?

Let me emphasize the fact that North Korea is in no way shape or form the "good guys". Ever. They're rotten to the core, and thats the honest to God truth.

[Ichabod]

Ichabod, ultimately, I am pretty sure that the USA just is not going to allow itself to be bullied or blackmailed by North Korea. This is reasonable. North Korea wants food and oil from the USA, and is trying to do this bullshit to get it from us. Its really, really shitty. This is a bad situation, because I dont want the America just to gave in to whatever North Korea wants (the sooner they collapse, the better), but at the same time, I also want this to end. So...

Actually read the speech I linked, the Bush administration is fucking up. Clinton fucked it up as well by trying to weasel out of the Agreed Framework, but at least he sent over William Perry and progress was being made.

Let me emphasize the fact that North Korea is in no way shape or form the "good guys". Ever. They're rotten to the core, and thats the honest to God truth.

...? Who said they were good? And anyway, a blanket moral judgement like this irks me. Bush's "Axis Of Evil" confrontational moral-high-ground bullshit is one cause of the North Korea crisis, and I don't think more of it helps anything, whether it's true or not. And another thing, wars aren't fought out of a sense of moral obligation. If that was the case, we'd put some effort into resolving the war in Congo right now, considering the 3 or 4 million dead since 1998.

I read somewhere that the "bold new proposal" that North Korea put forth in the recent talks (and the USA flatly rejected) was basically that we start sending them tons of oil, tons of food, and then, sometime after that, North Korea and the USA can negotiate the nuclear weapon thing. Ha! Think that's a GOOD arrangement?

Maybe we could just agree to it and then do nothing, much like with the Agreed Framework of 1994. That seems to be working out great.

[spacecowboy]

When is the Bush administration not fucking something up? I think that's beside the point. We shouldn't be negotiating with these people, we've done it before and it got us nowhere. I doubt this issue will ever be resolved peacefully and if Bush wants to pander about on this issue, then I hope everyone can see just how subjective his administration is when it comes to promoting freedom. It'll show the Iraq conflict for what it truly was. A war for oil. The U.S. has nothing to gain from North Korea other than a new trading partner. Kim Jong Il has already wasted most of North Korea's resources so there isn't anything really left. However, the Spratly islands area is thought to have major oil desposits. I'm sure if Bush hears about that he'll jump all of this thing. Sorry for the ramble.

SC

[Ichabod]

Originally posted by spacecowboy
When is the Bush administration not fucking something up? I think that's beside the point. We shouldn't be negotiating with these people, we've done it before and it got us nowhere. I doubt this issue will ever be resolved peacefully and if Bush wants to pander about on this issue, then I hope everyone can see just how subjective his administration is when it comes to promoting freedom. It'll show the Iraq conflict for what it truly was. A war for oil. The U.S. has nothing to gain from North Korea other than a new trading partner. Kim Jong Il has already wasted most of North Korea's resources so there isn't anything really left. However, the Spratly islands area is thought to have major oil desposits. I'm sure if Bush hears about that he'll jump all of this thing. Sorry for the ramble.

SC

But the negotiations leading up to Bush taking power were actually showing signs of progress on a peaceful resolution, and could have continued along that route if Bush had just left it alone.

As for the rest of your post, this link might be of interest.

However, I don't think the war on Iraq was as simple as a "war for oil", though economic interests obviously did figure into it. I think it's equally a matter of getting a good foothold and strategic power in the Middle East to help along what former CIA director (and future Iraqi Information Minister, apparently) James Woolsey calls "World War IV", or the resolution of our troubles in the region.

[Hero]

Use North Korea as a platform to talk about wars on oil...?

Nah, it can't be.

Tangent: SC, why do you think it was fair for the UN to want more time in searching for weapons, thinking that's all that was needed, but now after this war, demand immediate results from the US? You really think that there's nothing there? Or maybe there was, and it was all destroyed? According to Iraqi weapons development scientists, anyway. Or what if these weapons still exist, just hidden or smuggled off somewhere else?

Not trying to be a pain, it's just part of objectivity is to be the devil's advocate, even if it means being one to a devil's advocate.

I always thought that part and parcel of what we are doing in the Middle East is to 'flex our muscle.' Sounds stupid, huh? It basically equates to 'show North Korea we mean business when we mean it - no amount of dodging, appeasement, or bullying will win us out.' Never said it was the best theory, but we went from no negotiations to multilatteral negotiations to bilatteral negotiations over the months.

But if I'm wrong, I'm wrong - just don't use this to call me all sorts of names and look down on me like I'm some moral deficient who doesn't 'get it'. And remember... I'm on your good list =P

[spacecowboy]

Originally posted by Ichabod
But the negotiations leading up to Bush taking power were actually showing signs of progress on a peaceful resolution, and could have continued along that route if Bush had just left it alone.

As for the rest of your post, this link might be of interest.

Bush leave it alone? Not if he can screw it up. I'm sure North Korea has some oil, but 4.3 billion barrels is nothing. Iraq has about 110 billion. Anyways, I'm sure there is oil in North Korea, but not on any large scale. Plus they don't have the infrastructure setup for oil drilling. Serious money would have to be spent before oil, if any, could be extracted.

However, I don't think the war on Iraq was as simple as a "war for oil", though economic interests obviously did figure into it. I think it's equally a matter of getting a good foothold and strategic power in the Middle East to help along what former CIA director (and future Iraqi Information Minister, apparently) James Woolsey calls "World War IV", or the resolution of our troubles in the region.

I'll agree to that.

SC

Originally posted by Hero
Tangent: SC, why do you think it was fair for the UN to want more time in searching for weapons, thinking that's all that was needed, but now after this war, demand immediate results from the US? You really think that there's nothing there? Or maybe there was, and it was all destroyed? According to Iraqi weapons development scientists, anyway. Or what if these weapons still exist, just hidden or smuggled off somewhere else?

Well I didn't perceive Iraq as any real threat. I think that was pretty apparent how we practically rolled into Baghdad like I would into the drive-thru at Taco Bell. Yeah it's an exaggeration. Weapons inspecting was all that was needed, since there are no weapons. Diplomacy would have worked for Iraq. Now North Korea has a serious army and strong nuclear capabilities. They are a threat, especially when their leader is an loony despot with a superiority complex. I see North Korea as a country that could one day decide to launch nukes at California or Hawaii. I'm not sure if that's what you were asking, but there it is anyways.

SC

[Ichabod]

Bush leave it alone? Not if he can screw it up. I'm sure North Korea has some oil, but 4.3 billion barrels is nothing. Iraq has about 110 billion. Anyways, I'm sure there is oil in North Korea, but not on any large scale. Plus they don't have the infrastructure setup for oil drilling. Serious money would have to be spent before oil, if any, could be extracted.

I was joking

I always thought that part and parcel of what we are doing in the Middle East is to 'flex our muscle.' Sounds stupid, huh? It basically equates to 'show North Korea we mean business when we mean it - no amount of dodging, appeasement, or bullying will win us out.' Never said it was the best theory, but we went from no negotiations to multilatteral negotiations to bilatteral negotiations over the months.

As I said, we were making progress in North Korea before Bush came along and decided to "flex his muscle". The current crisis started with his "Axis Of Evil" speech and his complete abandonment of previous progress in favor of the petty confrontationalism that is one of the major reasons so much of the world is against Bush and his foreign policy.

[spacecowboy]

My bad. I'm such a dunce sometimes.

SC

[Hero]

Originally posted by Ichabod
As I said, we were making progress in North Korea before Bush came along and decided to "flex his muscle". The current crisis started with his "Axis Of Evil" speech and his complete abandonment of previous progress in favor of the petty confrontationalism that is one of the major reasons so much of the world is against Bush and his foreign policy.

But I thought we weren't going anywhere with North Korea in negotiations before all of this? Now, I thought we were?

CS~What if we find weapons? Will you believe in the reports or do what I already hear people on campus doing - ready to believe any report of breaking their fundamental belief as a hoax?