The Official TNL MMA/K-1 Thread

[Technosphile]

I know 99.1% of TNL has no clue what I'm talking about here, but there are a few MMA marks hanging around the boards, so...

Heath Herring?!?! This is completely out of left field. The big rumor has been a summer rematch between Mirko and Ernesto Hoost, but I really didn't think Filipovic would do another PRIDE match before continuing to ride the K-1 tidal wave since KOing Sapp.

KO win for Mirko. If Herring tries his usual flashy crap at the start of the fight, its lights out for him right there.

Predictions? Thoughts? PaCrappa and Master, I DEMAND you give your input.

-Tech

[Josh]

I was hoping for a video.

[Master]

Originally posted by Technosphile
I know 99.1% of TNL has no clue what I'm talking about here, but there are a few MMA marks hanging around the boards, so...

Heath Herring?!?! This is completely out of left field. The big rumor has been a summer rematch between Mirko and Ernesto Hoost, but I really didn't think Filipovic would do another PRIDE match before continuing to ride the K-1 tidal wave since KOing Sapp.

KO win for Mirko. If Herring tries his usual flashy crap at the start of the fight, its lights out for him right there.

Predictions? Thoughts? PaCrappa and Master, I DEMAND you give your input.

-Tech

A) Heath has great ground control and not too shabby takedowns. His standup wouldn't even win in a bar brawl, but he put in the effort. I'd say if CroCop has room to punch, this fight is over. If Heath gets good ground control, the fight is his. By the way, what is the weight difference between these two? Any special rules consideration if CroCop is much lighter? If he takes away knees on the ground, I don't see Herring as getting very far towards an on the ground TKO.

B) Make this the official TNL MMA thread, and we can live here forever.

PS: For your sake, lets hope CroCop has been practicing his sprawls.

PPS: AMC Pankration RULES. Did full-on submission sparring last night and loved it. Good times.

Originally posted by 88mph
I was hoping for a video.

Check out the great Highlight videos here and here.

That should whet your whistle and give newbs to MMA a feel for what we are talking about.

[Saint of Killers]

Originally posted by Master
By the way, what is the weight difference between these two? Any special rules consideration if CroCop is much lighter?

Herring's got about 40 lbs on Cro Cop. I'm pretty sure they're using normal PRIDE rules.

[Master]

Here is the rest of the official card for the next Pride:

Mark Coleman vs Don Frye (I'm gonna say Frye will win, but I want Coleman to as he's a good guy)

Fedor Emelianenko vs Kazuyuki Fujita (Fedor will wipe the floor with him)

Antonio Schembri vs Kazuhiro Hamanaka (I would have to say Hamanaka because he will take this fight very seriously and avenge the loss of Sak)

Heath Herring vs Mirko Filipovic (Could go either way. At the same weight I would say CroCop no contest, but I have no prediction as of now)

Quinton Jackson vs Mikhail Illoukhine (Rampage. He beats everyone. And yes, he would beat Sak if they fought now.)

Alistair Overeem vs Ricardo Arona (Tough choice. I gotta go Overeem by KO, but It should be interesting)

[StriderKyo]

How do you guys watch these fights? Sattelite dish and an eyepatch? Bar? Actually paying for it all? Because what little I've seen of Pride has been extremely cool, but the only access I have is through a pegleg having friend...

[Master]

Mostly through vidcaps people post online, recaps on message boards like www.sherdog.com or waiting for the videos/DVDs as I don't have cable, but if there were a friend of mine that HAD cable, he should order it so I can watch it.

*hint*

I'll pitch in.

[Technosphile]

Heath Herring vs. Mirko "Cro Cop" Filipovic:
Mirko has indeed worked on his sprawls. Master, the next time we see each other, we'll watch Inoki Bom-Ba-Ye 2002 and you can witness just how far Mirko has come with his wrestling ability. I'm sure you know, but that night he fought Kazuyuki Fujita, one of the world's finest wrestlers. Every time Fujita attempted to shoot, Mirko countered with a GORGEOUS sprawl and proceeded to unload kneebombs on Fujita's dome. Herring takes stupid risks to get the fans riled up--Mirko is smarter than he is. I don't see this fight ending in anything BUT a KO.

The rest of PRIDE 26:

Don Frye vs. Mark Coleman:
A UFC rematch in PRIDE, years later. Frye is a decent fighter but I haven't seen him do anything recently to restore my confidence in him. However, there is no way Coleman will make it until the end of the fight, the guy has never had any stamina...I don't know how it will end, but I'm going with Coleman.

Emelianeko Fedor vs. Kazuyuki Fujita:
Fedor can't KO or sub a guy who you can't do either to. Fujita is really underrated and I wouldn't be at all surprised if he wins this. The safe bet is Fedor by DEC, but my personal pick is the same for Fujita.

"Elvis" Schembri vs. Kazuhiro Hamanaka:
Hamanaka must be the cat seen hanging out with Sakuraba in the latest issue of Kakutougi Tsushin. Being that I know nothing about him, I can't call this.

Quinton "Rampage" Jackson vs. Mikhail Iloukhine:
Wow...an ex-RINGS stiff vs. the meanest mother in PRIDE. Jackson will rip this guy's head off. Then when he finally gets his shot at Silva, he'll kill him too.

Alistair Overeem vs. Ricardo Arona:
Good god Arona is a bore. Every fight of his is a snoozer. I know next to nothing about Overeem, but I hear good things. Another fight I can't call.

Master, I'm sure AMC is cool, but its a matter of principle. Between the monster that is Bob Sapp and Josh Barnett's "deer caught in headlights" act after being busted, I'd rather not know the availability of 'roids around that place. If its right for you and Pa then fine, but I'm steering clear.

-Tech

[Saint of Killers]

Originally posted by StriderKyo
How do you guys watch these fights? Sattelite dish and an eyepatch? Bar? Actually paying for it all? Because what little I've seen of Pride has been extremely cool, but the only access I have is through a pegleg having friend...

Kazaa.

If I could find a bar around here that gets PRIDE and UFC I'd be all over it.

[CypherUppercut]

I haven't kept track of MMA since January... Mostly due to the fact that I work nights on weekends. I'm out of the loop a little.

A Japanese market near me records PRIDE off Japanese TV nd puts it out for rent two weeks later. Unfortunately its hard to rent since they only put one copy out and its often rented out after its released.

I'm planning on going to Vegas in August to watch K-1. Unfortunately its only the USA semi-finals, but it should still be fun.

[Master]

Originally posted by Saint of Killers
Kazaa.

If I could find a bar around here that gets PRIDE and UFC I'd be all over it.

What he said.

Originally posted by CypherUppercut
A Japanese market near me records PRIDE off Japanese TV nd puts it out for rent two weeks later. Unfortunately its hard to rent since they only put one copy out and its often rented out after its released.

Man. I wish they did that around here. Oh wait, Technosphile does that for us for free

Hooray for VHS trading.

Originally posted by Technosphile
"Elvis" Schembri vs. Kazuhiro Hamanaka:
Hamanaka must be the cat seen hanging out with Sakuraba in the latest issue of Kakutougi Tsushin. Being that I know nothing about him, I can't call this.

Hamanaka is THE MAN when it comes to amateur wrestling. He says he is wrestling to show the world the strength of amateur wrestling. He also said, though, that in the ring he wants to fight like an amateur wrestler to show people how strong it is. May be a bad decision against a submission master with striking ability like Elvis.

Master, I'm sure AMC is cool, but its a matter of principle. Between the monster that is Bob Sapp and Josh Barnett's "deer caught in headlights" act after being busted, I'd rather not know the availability of 'roids around that place. If its right for you and Pa then fine, but I'm steering clear.

-Tech

I respect your decision, though I disagree with your reasoning. There was a huge falling about between Sapp and AMC as Sapp basically used them for a while and dropped them. As far as the Barnett thing, I don't think one person's personal decision to use should tarnish the gym at which he trains. Most of the MMA atheletes are using or have in the past, and you can bet Mirko is in that list. Not saying I'm for or against it, but it isn't any of my business unless I'm fighting against them.

[Zerodash]

Zzzzzzzzzz....

[Roufuss]

Mark "The Hammer" Coleman... I always wondered what happened to him.

This does sound interresting, I might go rent a dvd if I can find one.

[Master]

Originally posted by Zerodash
Zzzzzzzzzz....

Thanks for the comment.





...and stay out.

Originally posted by Roufuss
Mark "The Hammer" Coleman... I always wondered what happened to him.

This does sound interresting, I might go rent a dvd if I can find one.

Check out the HBO Undercover documentary on Mark Kerr that features Coleman extensively. Its called "The Smashing Machine" and its AMAZING.

PS: Give the word Technosphile and I'll have it mailed to me. I recorded it for my personal viewing pleasure.

[Technosphile]

Mirko on 'roids...possibly. I won't deny that he's a lot bigger now than he was even two years ago. Japan needs a sanctioning body for martial arts competition so the cheaters can be driven out.

-Tech

[Master]

Well the roids discussion has summarily killed this thread. Lets talk more about fighters and matchups we'd like to see...

I for one am greatly anticipating more fights with Ken Shamrock because I want to see if his "fighting system" can still work or if he still hasn't changed with the times.

Also, I want to see Bas throw down in the worst way...

[Saint of Killers]

Originally posted by Master
Well the roids discussion has summarily killed this thread. Lets talk more about fighters and matchups we'd like to see...

I can't wait til August, when I'll get to see Rampage slam Silva on his melon and then pound his skull in.

[Technosphile]

Ah, "Dream Fight" discussion.



Kazushi Sakuraba vs. Kiyoshi Tamura
Two former UWF-style pro wrestlers. Two of the most popular Japanese fighters of all time. Two guys who hate each other's guts. While the American audience wouldn't care for even a second, this fight would sell out the Tokyo Dome. I've been hoping and praying for this one for years, and as each of their careers wind down, its less likely to happen. DSE, give us this fight. Please.

Takanori Gomi vs. Duane Ludwig
Ludwig is hot stuff in the American circuit right now, while Gomi rules the Shooto roost with perhaps the most brutal and aggressive style I've ever seen in a Japanese fighter. Ludwig has gone on-record as saying he knows nothing about submission, but he could shatter bricks with his standup. Gomi is a world-class submission wrestler with punching power to match (his reach is also very impressive). Gomi will likely fight Joquin Hansen next, but I'd much prefer to see this.

Chuck Liddell vs. anybody in K-1
Just to see how he'd do.

Chuck Liddell vs. Mirko Filipovic
MMA rules. The Iceman would melt.

Jerome Le Banner vs. Mirko Filipovic
K-1 rules, obviously. Wouldn't it be awesome if these two collided in the opening round of the World Grand Prix Finals? Whoever won would surely win the tournament, unless...

Ernesto Hoost vs. Mirko Filipovic
Were to occur next. Ever since K-1 Beast the talk on the net had been that this fight was going to happen in July, which now is clearly not going to happen. I'm happy Mirko is doing well in MMA and I strongly feel he will defeat Herring. However, he hasn't competed in the Grand Prix in a long time and I think part of it might be he wants to avoid another meeting with Hoost.

Thats all for now.

-Tech

[Rumpy]

These guys are fucking nuts. I'd love to see someone in a bar pick on one of the "smaller" guys and watch as he gets fucking STOMPED in all of 5 seconds.

I can't say I'm a big fan of MMA style...it always ends up on the ground with their limbs tied in knots. They roll around and one guy can't do shit so it always ends the same. That might be my old WWF roots of wanting to see people gets slammed and jump off shit coming through though.

[Saint of Killers]

Originally posted by Rumpy
I can't say I'm a big fan of MMA style...it always ends up on the ground with their limbs tied in knots. They roll around and one guy can't do shit so it always ends the same.

Not always. Plenty of stand up guys do well in MMA. Chuck Liddell, Bang, Wanderlei Silva, Anderson Silva, CroCop, Tim Sylvia, etc.

[Master]

Originally posted by Saint of Killers
Not always. Plenty of stand up guys do well in MMA. Chuck Liddell, Bang, Wanderlei Silva, Anderson Silva, CroCop, Tim Sylvia, etc.

The man is right. When the fight goes to the ground, the better fighters stand up when they see an opening. But if you are Chuck Liddel it takes somebody like Jeremy Horn to actually take you down.

Kazushi Sakuraba vs. Kiyoshi Tamura
No Comment.

Takanori Gomi vs. Duane Ludwig
This would be a knock-down drag out. If they set this up I would love to see it. Fat chance of it happening, but thats what I said about Bang vs. Sudo.

Chuck Liddell vs. anybody in K-1
I think he'd hold his own, at least as well as Rampage (undefeated in K-1 mind you).

Chuck Liddell vs. Mirko Filipovic
MMA rules. The Mirko would melt. On a side note, what weight do you think they would meet at?

Jerome Le Banner vs. Mirko Filipovic
I would want to see Mirko unload on him...

Ernesto Hoost vs. Mirko Filipovic
Who knows who would win, but I too would love to see it.

Here are some to ponder over:

Josh Barnett vs. Ricco Rodriguez
The only reason Ricco ever got the belt in the first place is because they made Josh give it up. I think Josh if the match stays standing, but on the ground who knows. They are both seasoned ADCC (Abu-Dhabi Combat Club) atheletes.

Takanori Gomi vs. Duane Ludwig
I'm with Tech, this would be a great one.

Chuck Liddell vs. Vanderlei Silva
I have the Iceman by KO.

Chuck Liddell vs. Tito Ortiz
Tito will duck this fight until the cows come home. Iceman would walk all over him.

Jeremy Horn vs. Frank Shamrock
Two grappling masters with tons of ring experience. I would watch this one with baited breath, hoping Horn could pull it out to finally get the push into the limelight he so desparately needs.

Gan McGee vs. Tim Sylvia
Two Giants clashing in the octagon. I just think it would be fun to watch to see what happens.

I'll think of more, but for some reason those are the ones that popped into my head.

[Technosphile]

Originally posted by Master

Josh Barnett vs. Ricco Rodriguez

Barnett would kick his ass. I can barely keep a straight face when typing "Josh's standup is better", its an understatement of colossal proportions. Barnett is probably a better wrestler, he's faster, he has more desire. Ricco is overrated.

Chuck Liddell vs. Vanderlei Silva

Vanderlei fears no high kick. His punches are faster and he's more aggressive. I'd really like to see how Liddell would handle the infamous bull rush of Silva's...Vanderlei by DEC.

Chuck Liddell vs. Tito Ortiz

Tito is either entertaining big PRIDE money or is afraid. If its the latter, he should be because Chuck would KO him in seconds.

Jeremy Horn vs. Frank Shamrock

Ah, a rematch. Horn is coming off a nice win in KOTC and Frank is starting over; a perfect time for a match like this to occur. Both of them have changed a lot since their first meeting, but the ending would remain the same.

Gan McGee vs. Tim Sylvia

Yikes.

Why no comment on Sakuraba/Tamura? Surely a man who owns Tamura/Shamrock knows that he is for real. Need I remind you that Kiyoshi has kicked the asses of both Renzo Gracie and Jeremy Horn? I have both of those on tape, if you need your memory jogged.

As for a weight class meeting of Filipovic/Liddell, its becoming increasingly obvious that weight means nothing to these two. Chuck can be as heavy as he wants, he'll still wake up with the fans screaming and Mirko standing on the turnbuckle.

Where the hell is Pa?!?

-Tech

[Joust Williams]

Bob Sapp is the best! yeah!

;P

[Master]

Originally posted by BoBVila
Bob Sapp is the best! yeah!

;P

Haha. Nice one.

PS: Mirko = Beatable.

[PaCrappa]

"Master, I'm sure AMC is cool, but its a matter of principle. Between the monster that is Bob Sapp and Josh Barnett's "deer caught in headlights" act after being busted, I'd rather not know the availability of 'roids around that place. If its right for you and Pa then fine, but I'm steering clear."

Okay Sapp Schmapp but I can't believe you stated your AMC avoidance stance that way. Do you suppose that Barnett sat in the middle of the fucking mat and shot steroids for all to see and then put guys in full nelsons and kicked 'em in the fucking nuts til they took steroids?! Dude, your linking of one guy's possible steroid use (anobolic agents do not necessarily equal anything illegal, especially as mandated by the Nevada state athletic comission) to the possible availability of illegal and dangerous drugs is absolutely preposterous and is beginning to sound like a broken record. Fact: you haven't been to AMC. You don't seem willing to believe the hype about Iraq, George Bush or any of that nonsense, so why are you so ready to condemn Barnett, whom you barely know in even the most pedestrian sense and the entirety of AMC which you've never even seen and whose patrons you've never met? Sorry for the public rant but dude, you're not using steroids and neither are any of your friends that do/have/would attend AMC. If you don't want to attend, fine, but it isn't cool to use a public forum to cast such an incriminating implication over the entire gym. That's very disrespectful toward a whole bunch of folks you've never even met.

Anyway, Pride 26 sounds okay there are only two really big fights for me:

Filipovic vs Herring- First of all I can't believe you neanderthals refer to the man as "CroCop". Gayness. He's going to win this fight. I don't think Herring has enough control in his "ground control" to get the job done. Filipovic is absolutely on fire as far as I'm concerned and I doubt Herring will get the kind of takedowns he wants, if any. As Technosphile mentioned, Herring likes the flashy and Mirko likes to play it smart. Mirko Filipovic by a big KO.

Kazuyuki Fujita vs Emilianenko Fedor- Dear God, Fedor is just insane with the punching on the ground and even when in the guard. I don't think I've yet seen anything like it. But I really like Fujita who is a fantastic wrestler. He's also got sort of a wildcard appeal in that noone even really knows how much he's capable of. His body of work in MMA is less than extensive and he has landed at least one incredible (I thought) victory in beating Gilbert Yvel. I figured the punchy kicky Yvel would flatten him and dust the canvas with is ass. But instead Fujita absolutely dominated him like a duck on a junebug. I can't wait for this fight. Just because I like him so much, I'm going to say Kazuyuki Fujita by submission.

I'll enjoy the rest but none of it truly matters. I suppose I'd prefer Frye over Coleman but neither man has ever been a favorite. Jackson and Elvis both irritate me to no end.

Pa

[Technosphile]

Originally posted by PaCrappa
Okay Sapp Schmapp

You can't just write it off like that. The NFL claims a "strict drug testing policy" to weed out potential Lyle Alzados, and Sapp (apparently) did not fail any tests during his professional run. So with that in mind, the question needs to be asked--IF Bob Sapp is using or has used anabolic steroids, when did it start? You can't rule out the possibility that someone at AMC might have played a role in this. Again, I don't know if he's juicing. But I do know your personal opinion about Sapp's build and your dismissal of him at the beginning of your post only confirms it.

but I can't believe you stated your AMC avoidance stance that way. Do you suppose that Barnett sat in the middle of the fucking mat and shot steroids for all to see and then put guys in full nelsons and kicked 'em in the fucking nuts til they took steroids?! Dude, your linking of one guy's possible steroid use (anobolic agents do not necessarily equal anything illegal, especially as mandated by the Nevada state athletic comission) to the possible availability of illegal and dangerous drugs is absolutely preposterous and is beginning to sound like a broken record.

I'm fairly certain Josh Barnett has never pushed steroids upon anyone. I don't think Matt Hume or Maurice Smith have, either. My opinion on the Barnett issue comes from he and his trainer's public display of feigned outrage following Barnett's test results. If what Barnett was using was completely legal, why was he stripped of the title? If the NSAC was just plain wrong about the contents of Barnett's "supplements", why were only he and Hume fighting the decree? Why didn't Zuffa go out of its way to defend Josh? There are too many coincidences and unanswered questions to point to any other conclusion: Barnett was using steroids. Hume knew about it. When Josh was busted, they played the innocence card together when Josh wasn't innocent. Furthermore, neither of them offered any word of apology to Zuffa, the fans, and most importantly, Randy Couture. I find that unprofessional and disgraceful.

MMA is a burgeoning sport in the United States. There could be salad days ahead, but it will never take off if the public continues to view the sport as barbaric sideshow. To tack on "full of 'roided-out action figures" would only compound this thinking. So the NSAC is actually THE body you want sanctioning this sort of thing, considering Vegas boxing connections could put MMA on the national map. Before that happens, its up to the MMA "community" as a whole to push steroids out of the sport completely. I've heard far too many ignoramuses say something like "didn't someone die in the UFC?", I don't need or want to start hearing "all those guys juice", as well.

Fact: you haven't been to AMC. You don't seem willing to believe the hype about Iraq, George Bush or any of that nonsense, so why are you so ready to condemn Barnett, whom you barely know in even the most pedestrian sense and the entirety of AMC which you've never even seen and whose patrons you've never met? Sorry for the public rant but dude, you're not using steroids and neither are any of your friends that do/have/would attend AMC. If you don't want to attend, fine, but it isn't cool to use a public forum to cast such an incriminating implication over the entire gym. That's very disrespectful toward a whole bunch of folks you've never even met.

I've never condemmed AMC as a whole for Barnett or Hume's behavior. I now have three friends who go there, and none of you are juicing. I doubt that any of you have ever been approached about steroids while there and I doubt that you ever will. As for me, I know what I know and its enough to convince me that AMC isn't the right gym for me.

I'm merely asking questions that need to be asked. I'm like Bob Woodward.

-Tech

[Master]

I still say you should get over it and go to AMC.

Fuck the moral high ground. We could all be training together. Just try it out for a week and forget all the politics.

[Technosphile]

Maybe.

I had BooMSta cut my hair like Mirko's last night. I regrettably forgot to have him shave "#1 FAN" in the back.

-Tech

[Master]

Originally posted by Technosphile
Maybe.

I had BooMSta cut my hair like Mirko's last night. I regrettably forgot to have him shave "#1 FAN" in the back.

-Tech

I can't tell if you are making fun of me for shaving my head that way I did or if you actually shaved it like Mirko.

Either way, cool.

[PaCrappa]

Thanks for the clarification Tech. I couldn't care less who juices, it was just offensive that you would use a public forum to insinuate that steroids are available at AMC.

I'm sure there's some kid sitting in Dubuque right now thinking to himself "Master and PaCrappa seemed okay.... til I found out they hang out at the Steroid Shoppe. They're probably juicing too and PaCrappa is twisting Tech's arm to cover it all up now that he let the cat out of the bag". Okay, clearly the little quotation I just dreamt up is also preposterous but that's how this shit works with the public posting. It's fine for you to say whatever the hell you want about AMC in front of me and Master when we're at my place but you know damn well that there are some softheaded motherfuckers that attend any public forum and that they can easily dream up the above line of logic, and instantly stop reading right then and there. Then of course we have one softeheaded dillweed wandering around and saying shit like "Oh that guy's an AMC fighter, clearly juicing, clearly not to be trusted because he's probably also a roid peddler and a crook. I hope Goodridge beats his ass because he's clearly the upstanding, honest athlete here." (disclaimer: I dislike Goodrige as a fighter and that's why he's being used as an example here. I have no idea if he uses anything like steroids).

As far as Hume's lack of knowledge. Well, have you ever known a needle user? Unless the whole house is on heroin, needle users go to the bathroom. You don't get to sit on the living room couch (or the mat or ring at AMC) to inject drugs. If Josh was shooting steroids, you can bet money he was doing it privately. If he's already going to the bathroom to do this (again, this is hypothetical since the same press that reported the story is the same fucking press that I hate with a vengeance, and the athletic comission that tested him is from the most draconian of all states regarding drug laws) why in the world would Hume know? Hume's running a serious business with over 100 patrons, he can't have that drama in his life. You and I both know that Josh Barnett is intelligent enough to understand this so I have to think that if he was in fact doing steroids, that he'd have had the respect and honor to not ever tell Matt.

That's what pisses me off the most! You won't let the guy that got busted be the guy busted. You have to dirty the whole gym and sleight all the people who go there after work to bust their asses on a daily basis just to learn how to do a better armbar or add more power to the punches. These are not superstar media figures, they're just people like you and I. Were the average AMC attendee to read what you write about they're gym, they'd be bummed out in a sad way my friend. The people there are nice.

"Sapp Schmapp" is because the guy is little more than the biggest gorilla ever in the sport. You and I both know that he ain't all he's cranked up to be in the ring. With him, steroid use is beside the point. His level of skill doesn't support his being in the ring in the first place. Of course there's no evidence of him actually using roids either. Spend a few minutes in jail and you'll see guys as big as him and you know they've never done steroids. If he is using steroids it's just as likely that someone in the NFL is the hookup. Testing for steroids is not the same as eliminating steroids and to think that no athlete in the NFL is using them is a joke.

At the end of it all, you have asked no Bob Woodward questions and are still insinuating that steroids are available at AMC. Even if they are, here are a couple of parallel situations:

"I'd go to the Rainbow for that next McFadden show but someone might be high on cocaine".

"I'd go and play games at PaCrappa's, but one of those dudes at the corner might be selling drugs.

Clearly and completely, unnecessary personal restrictions that relate to similar circumstances and are beyond anyone's control.

Steroids are fucking dumb. You and I agree. We also agree that MMA (and every other sport) would be best if they'd never existed. But the fact of the matter is, we'll never know who is or isn't using steroids til they're busted for it. Even then, the results can be iffy. Folks on probation through a court of law can't even eat a poppyseed muffin or they test positve for opiates. Creatine contains many anabolic agents, some of which were found in Josh Barnett. This whole thing is a huge grey area. For all we know Sakuraba is using steroids and Sapp isn't. Such is the nature of drug use in general. You know what someone tells you about themself and beyond that you know who's been busted and even that isn't the word of god handed down from on high. I mean maybe the NSAC was wrong and they should apologize to Hume, the fans and give Barnett the belt. We'll never know.

So at the end of all these words we're left in the same spot. Me championing AMC as the finest fighting gym in the state and even one of the best in the country, and you publicly telling people that it's *maybe* possible to get steroids there. That's just not cool. Here's a scenario:

Suppose some day that all this pays off and you hit the big time. You and Tamura open a gym in Ballard. Clearly, you'd be training the finest athletes in the world. All of them would be in tiptop shape and perhaps one day one of them gets a title shot. Now of course no fighter training at T-File Camp will be on the juice or else he gets unceremoniously kicked the fuck out to go train at Hammer House(again, just a gym I've not been impressed by, NO steroid connection expressed or implied). But of course you're not testing piss or blood. I mean these people are paying you. So let's say your boy fights and wins. Only to test positive for "anabolic agents". You throw your hands in the air, act like a dick because you're genuinely incredulous and go home to find that some motherfucker that's never so much as shown his face at T-File Camp has taken up arms at an internet forum and is proceeding to tell the world that you're handing out roids and that your fighters are questionable and that he'd never go there in his life because he's made of much sterner moral fiber than the average guy who spends four hours plus each day sweating bullets to better himself in fighting.

Think about it man. Barnett got busted not AMC. And before you quote this: "I've never condemmed AMC as a whole for Barnett or Hume's behavior.", like I forgot to read it, please go and reread your own stuff because you did portray the gym itself in a negative manner previous to that statement and have not said much to retract your statements about the gym as a collective.

This is serious stuff. I realize that we can readily see how many times this topic has been viewed, but the implications that you're putting forth about a human being(Matt Hume) and his means of livelihood have the potential to be viewed by thousands and even millions of people. Remarks like this: "IF Bob Sapp is using or has used anabolic steroids, when did it start? You can't rule out the possibility that someone at AMC might have played a role in this." are still only a shade away from outright slander in my opinion. Again, fine at my house but far too negative for the public. It's not just us chitchatting away on this thread. Our remarks in this thread will influence somebody. I'm not being egotistical when I say this either. Someone somewhere will leave this thread with far more information than he arrived with. I wish you hadn't started with the whole "AMC is a possible roid den" thing, because someone out there already believes it

Your own personal restrictions are only holding you yourself back and I won't say anything negative about that. You're making your own bed with however and wherever you choose to train, so all that's like water off a duck's back, and you're more than free to choose your means of training. The open air public implications on the other hand, have a huge potential to negatively effect someone else's business and livelihood. It ain't right and it's exactly the same is if someone were to get on here and start sounding off that "you can't rule out the possibility" that I do/have/would sell bootlegs because he heard that I had a CD-R Pepsiman in my collection. It's not a direct accusation but that doesn't make it a cool line of conversation. And of course I'd be personally effected in my emotions, I'd have all sorts of people asking if it's true and I'd lose money from the few that don't need anything more than an implication from someone who seems knowledgable to up and boycott my shop.

Pa

PS: Sorry for the meandering stream of consciousness. The point here is that publicly posting criminal implications about the gym where your buddies go is bad. I just get a little worked up in trying to illustrate all the ways it's bad.