Contemplating infinity...

[Tracer]

You know... that's pretty interesting... I don't belive I'd have considered that.

[Dolemite]

Originally posted by youandwhosearmy
I guess I'm going to go against the majority here and say that the universe is definately a finite construct. A lot of scientists now believe that the universe is expanding at such a rate that there is not enough gravity, (including dark matter), for it to collapse back in on itself. That does not make the universe infinite however, because what is it after all light and matter disipate and burn out after a trillion or so years?

Once again, if that's the case, then what is the universe expanding into? What is this area that the universe exists in that allows it to expand at an unchecked rate? Where is this displaced space coming from? I can certainly relate to the theory that the universe if indeed finite, but what is beyond it?

Originally posted by Will
Veering a bit off subject, I've always been facinated with Black holes, I've always wanted to see what was inside them after it sucks in whatever is trapped in there. Is it just a vacuum pocket of space or is it a rift between dimensions? Or is it both? Is the hole inside of it an infinite loop leading to a network of other black holes?

The theory is that basically anything caught by a Black Hole's gravity field is sucked straight in to its core. The gravity at its center is so strong that it compresses all matter sucked in into it into a super-dense mass that keeps getting denser and denser...no matter how much mass it aquires, the gravity is so insanely strong that the core is just compressed more and more, so the size of the core remains reletively the same size no matter what..word is that Nintendo's trying to license the compression technique for their next cart-based system.

[Rich]

Accidentally break the cart, and be sucked in!

[Dolemite]

Originally posted by rezo
No, its not another thing to actually comprehend that. "dude, that goes on forever" is all you need to know as far as understanding something being infinite. I think people simply like the idea of thinking about infinity as a high incomprehensible concept.

this is a line

---------------> that thing at the end signifies that it goes on forever.


<--------------> It goes on forever in both directions!


º--------------º A limited line.

As for having a visual image of what an infinite amount of something would look like in my head,If you understand infinite, you would realize that creating such an image would be impossible, and wouldn't even bother to try. See, that's why we have the " > " at the end of a line instead of coming up with an infinite amount of time and materials to create the infinite line.

You aparently misunderstood everything I was trying to say with my original post. I said it's EASY to understand that something has no end. But TRULY comprehending it is another. That's why so many people in this thread (including me) are starting to claim their heads are hurting. And you just completely contradicted yourself with these two statements:

No, its not another thing to actually comprehend that. "dude, that goes on forever" is all you need to know as far as understanding something being infinite.

As for having a visual image of what an infinite amount of something would look like in my head,If you understand infinite, you would realize that creating such an image would be impossible

See? That's what I'm talking about. I was saying that's it's all too simple to just say, "it's infinite". I'm just talking about picturing moving through the universe, past galaxies and and everything, and having it go on and on and on and on...where does it end, or does it end, and if so, what lies beyond?

Besides, those silly little lines you posted are just based on man's limited knowledge of the nature of the universe. I'm sure if we knew the real score that it would render all that obsolete in a second. You're just being the classic example of the "dude, that goes on forever" guy.

Sorry if this came off in an annoyed tone, but your reply to my post seemed somewhat arrogant and condencending. My apologies if it was not meant that way. If it was...

Originally posted by Rich
Accidentally break the cart, and be sucked in!

It's teh Nintendo master plan!

[Rich]

Personally, I'd rather die via Nintendo's master plan than Jeremy's.

So if numbers go on forever, and the universe isn't infinite, then you would run out of space to put 0s, eventually. Surely that's proof that the universe is infinite, isn't it?

[Omni]

Originally posted by Dolemite
Once again, if that's the case, then what is the universe expanding into? What is this area that the universe exists in that allows it to expand at an unchecked rate? Where is this displaced space coming from? I can certainly relate to the theory that the universe if indeed finite, but what is beyond it?

Ahh, so I guess you're one of those people who has a hard time with the concept of "nothing."

I'd say look at it like this: the universe is everything, and it itself is finite at any given time, but it's continually expanding and getting bigger, so it's impossible to measure it's volume at any given time, but theoretically there is a number that can represent the volume of the universe.

Everything else excluding the universe is simply nothing. This is the part that is infinite. The universe is not restricted to any maximum volume because it is contained inside of nothing, and how can nothing stop something from growing? The particles inside the universe can displace this nothingness with absolutely no resistance. If you wanna look at this as the universe being infinite, then I don't think you're wrong, because it can grow infinitely, but if you're talking about an exact moment in time, I'd have to disagree.

It is a known fact that the majority of the volume of an atom is composed of empty space, so it is also a known fact that "nothing" exists. This also means that a majority of space in the universe is actually "nothing." Since this nothingness does indeed exist, I don't think it's far off to assume that it can exist in a larger amount space, particularly the space surrounding the universe.


I think looking at the universe as a giant sphere (much like a planet) that does indeed have a boundary, but one that is constantly changing, is the easiest way to look at it. Also the most plausible.

The fact that a line can go on forever is not a testament to the fact that the universe is infinite, but rather that it can grow infinitely.

As for infinity - I think it's hard to comprehend the true nature of infinity simply because the human mind can only picture things that have a definite boundary.

But I don't think "picturing" infinity is anything of importance, because it wouldn't really do us much good. The concept is really all that matters. Sure, it would be nice to see what an infinite line would look like (although theoretically you would never be done looking at it), but there's no point in doing that. We know that this line goes on forever, and that is enough.

[Calliander]

I think you first need to define for yourself what the universe is.

To me, the universe is all the planets and the stars. Where and if those planets and stars end, I don't know, and I don't especially care.

But say that the universe (being all of the planets and stars, all that matter) does, in fact, end at some point. What's beyond that? Nothing? Personally, if the universe ends, that's fine. If it ends, then the space that the universe is sitting in is infinite. All that empty, black, nothingness is what the universe sits in. To me. If the universe ends.

Logic would seem to point toward the universe ending, if we accept the Big Bang Theory. But there's no reason for me to think that the universe cannot expand infinitely. It would be cool to see where the universe actually, definitively, ends, though.

Lots and lots to think about.

[rezo]

Dolemite: Your ability to imagine what an infinitely long line in its totality would look like is derived from your understanding of the "dude, it goes on forever" concept. So being able to picture such a thing is not a more true understanding of infinite.Whatever you picture would indeed "go on forever" and that would not be something you already know.

". I'm just talking about picturing moving through the universe, past galaxies and and everything, and having it go on and on and on and on...where does it end, or does it end, and if so, what lies beyond?

If existence is infinite, the answer is "more". If its not infinite, the answer is ,"eventually nothing." If you believe in a substantial sort of nothing(infinite amount of occupiable space perhaps), then you get an infinite amount of that.You don't need to try and picture yourself moving through the universe to understand any of this. "Dude, it goes on forever" is all you need to know, as far as understanding something going on forever is concerned.


Tracer:

I didn't use the limited 5 yr period to represent infinite, or I didn't mean to anyways. The entirety of the infinite travel exists within that 5 yr period, so you can get a complete representation of that system by disregarding the infinite looping and regarding it as the collection of states in the five year period.

Nothing really significant about that, even though that part took up the majority of my post, I just thought it was interesting and decided to ramble. I think any system of time can be resolved into a single collection of states and wonder if should regard them as simply that. . .and. . .I have to go.

[Mr-K]

Originally posted by cka
I'll buy that. BUT:

What if the universe is in the design of a sphere? You can obtain the illusion that you keep going forward while you wrap around it, much like how it appears when you fly on a plane and look out the window. Maybe there's a centrifical source (or startpoint, if you will) of the universe which has some sort of undetectable gravity holding the sphere together. Your mind will interprit moving forward as moving across the plane of the universe while in actuality you wrap around the universe itself. Therefore, the universe gives the illusion of infinity while not being infinite at all.

</out-of-ass>

If the universe was a sphere and you went in a straight line you wouldn't wrap around, you would punch through the other side. You would only wrap around if you went in a circular path. If you went in a straight you would reach the end and go into nothingness which may very well be infinite. Either way, something out there goes on forever.

[Rich]

I decided to study Einstein tonight for the first time in a while, and happened to come across something relating to this; the theory of eliptical space.

http://www.bartleby.com/173/31.html

And interesting read.