Global Democratic Revolution

[Critical Overdrive]

" Hey, everyone else, you may actually want to read the text of the speech."

There comes a point where I just stop listening to people who have been confirmed as liars. George Bush can talk all he wants. His actions have spoken quite loudly and no mere words are going to fix that. Sorry.

Pa

There also comes a point when you stop wasting your time posting that on TNL when you should be voicing your opinion (and vote) to where it can actually make a difference.

[Matt]

I imagine that Almaci and you missed it because, not surprisingly, the two of you didn't take the time to actually read what Bush said. Doesn't matter, I guess, because "BUSH IS DUM AND A NAZI," or whatever.

Well, you got me on that! I read about the speech in a local newspaper article that didn't include that section. I wasn't about to slog through all 5 pages of something I'd already read a summary of.

As it is, that one paragraph gives very little indication of just how much the US has stifled worldwide freedom in the past 6 decades. "Excusing and accommodating lack or freedom" is just the tip of the iceberg - "aiding, abetting, and promoting lack of freedom for the sake of other interests" would have been far more accurate. But of course, this is a speech by and for the guilty party, so one can't expect them to rag on themselves.

I thought the passage that best illustrated your point was:

Therefore the United States has adopted a new policy: a forward strategy of freedom in the Middle East. This strategy requires the same persistence and energy and idealism we have shown before and it will yield the same results.

And there you go. If the US holds true to this, than the world will be a better place. If not, then it'll just be more of the same and these guys will be seen as a bunch of hypocrites.

For the record, I don't think Bush is evil. I think he and much of his staff are poor leaders who make bad decisions, but that they're doing what they believe is right. He's in office because he was elected by the people (under the current set of rules), and whether or not you like what he does, you have to respect his position out of courtesy to democracy as a whole. Bush isn't responsible for the past actions of America, and however he goes about it I don't think his idealism is to be faulted.

As far as living in Belgium goes - you're happy there now. Give immigration 20 years and it's going to destroy your country.

Those are some very strong words there. Please explain why you think this is? I've heard plenty of people say this to me (probably because I'm white and they don't realize I'm an immigrant too). So far nobody's given a reason that wasn't just senseless bigotry.

Remember that you (unless you are a full-blooded Indian which I doubt) are descended from immigrants yourself. Do you consider your family's presence here a detriment to the nation?

[Stone]

Those are some very strong words there. Please explain why you think this is? I've heard plenty of people say this to me (probably because I'm white and they don't realize I'm an immigrant too). So far nobody's given a reason that wasn't just senseless bigotry.

Remember that you (unless you are a full-blooded Indian which I doubt) are descended from immigrants yourself. Do you consider your family's presence here a detriment to the nation?

I'm pro-US-style-immigration, 100% - immigrants come in, take minimum wage jobs, and pull themselves upwards.

Belgian immigration is a different matter. Imagine what would happen to the US if our illegal immigrants could claim the same levels of benefit that Belgium's illegal immigrants can (ie a lot). Naturalization, crossing over from other EU countries. The open borders facilitated by the EU will make it more difficult to sustain those benefits.

There's a good reason why terrible nationalist parties are gaining traction in countries like France and Belgium.

This isn't about race, at all - it's disappointing, and frightening that so many of the immigrants are espousing rabidly anti-semitic views - but the real issue is the willingness of the Belgians to support people unwilling to work.

Which pretty much sums up the current US state of mind: "It's all about the Benjamins."

Talk to me about benefits when I lose my job.

My understanding of the Belgian immigration issue came entirely from my college Dutch professor, a very nice, very liberal woman who turned into Pat-erken Buchanan-lijk whenever immigration came up.

[haohmaru]

Doesnt change the fact that on a per capita basis we earn more money, live longer and healthier, work less houres a week, have way more vacation time, live better and are smarter.

You forgot to mention "racist" in that sentence of yours. How, exactly, do you figure that your population is "smarter"?

Or did you mean better educated?

[Calliander]

I'm pro-US-style-immigration, 100% - immigrants come in, take minimum wage jobs, and pull themselves upwards.

For instance, Italians. They came here and had to go through the same crap that Mexicans and other Hispanic immigrants are going through currently. The one thing I think would be interesting would be to see what percentage of Hispanic Americans whose families have been here for at least fifty years are doing well in the same vein that Italians and Jews are versus those who aren't.

Belgian immigration is a different matter. Imagine what would happen to the US if our illegal immigrants could claim the same levels of benefit that Belgium's illegal immigrants can (ie a lot). Naturalization, crossing over from other EU countries. The open borders facilitated by the EU will make it more difficult to sustain those benefits.

Exactly. We'd get messed up.

I still wasn't moved in any way by the speech, though.

[Spent]

Without using an overly simplistic analogy, if I am a coach of a team that is in last place and within 3 years they win a championship, who's to say my methods were unsound and that my way wasn't the best way?

You know, Hitler did the best things for Germany than most leaders have in his short time. From a post war failure to a modern marvel in 1 decade..... who's to say hes methods were unsound and his way wasn't the best way?

I'm pro-US-style-immigration, 100% - immigrants come in, take minimum wage jobs, and pull themselves upwards.

Moron, are you saying if someone immigrates with a phD they should take a minimum wage job and pull themselves upwards from there? That system is nothing but detrimental to the people and I'd be ashamed to say it was my countries standard.

[Diff-chan]

You know, Hitler did the best things for Germany than most leaders have in his short time. From a post war failure to a modern marvel in 1 decade..... who's to say hes methods were unsound and his way wasn't the best way?

The graves of 10 million people killed in the holocaust? Stupid analogies like this contribute nothing and prove nothing because his ways were clearly wrong. In hindsight everything is 20/20 but for the Germans living through the misery of the Treaty of Versailles, the guy was the second coming... until the Holocaust happened. And all that broke loose.

[Spent]

Stupid analogies like this contribute nothing and prove nothing because his ways were clearly wrong.

And this is any different from Bushes ways because? I guess you must have forgot when Bush lied to the world and his citizens about the WMD..... unless you don't label lying as clearly wrong, in which case, carry on.

[Gohron]

This is already a dead argument and has mixed arguments involved but keep in mind that WMD can be destroyed and moved out of country...True maybe there never was any but then again why would Iraq need to buy the underground digging machines from France?

[Tracer]

I remember reading about a survey like the one almaci mentioned. The US ranked 16th. I think Australia was #1 but I'm not sure.

Al, you got a link to that (or any other such) survey?

Norway is #1.

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/3421.htm