Death is too good for him. It's basically letting him off the hook.Originally Posted by Gohron
I'd rather he spend the rest of his life confined in a cell, to think about everything he's done.
Nordic Warrior
What the fuck does that have to do with anything? Iraq is secular in government but Islamic in nature, fuck off dude.
*after your edit*
And you think Saddam would abide by the peaceful Muslim sect or the violent extremist one? I mean he did gas all the people from Iran because they were a different type of Islam then his own.
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Death is too good for him. It's basically letting him off the hook.
I'd rather he spend the rest of his life confined in a cell, to think about everything he's done.
Wu-Tang is for the children!
True.
But in theory all Saddam loyalist should be very moderate Muslims, the kind that aren't offing people in the name of Allah, but in the name of the "great Babylonian prince".
There's a big difference between actual Saddam loyalists, and opportunistic Islamic extremists.
Quick zephyrs blow, vexing daft Jim.
Nordic Warrior
I wouldn't see anything wrong with him spending the rest of his life in a cell either, but it's the kind of inhumane torture that I don't think should be brought down on anyone. That doesn't make us any better then Saddam if we treat him like that.
Nordic Warrior
Alright, fair enough, sorry for going off on you.
But in theory all Saddam loyalist should be very moderate Muslims, the kind that aren't offing people in the name of Allah, but in the name of the "great Babylonian prince".
There's a big difference between actual Saddam loyalists, and opportunistic Islamic extremists.
Wu-Tang is for the children!
He abides by neither. And what's that fucked up shit that you put peaceful in quotes?
You mean the Kurds? That was because of racial lines, not religious. If you meant when he killed Iranians, it's because Iran is a fundamentalist extremist Islamic state, and Iraq is secular.
Quick zephyrs blow, vexing daft Jim.
I woke up this morning to the news, and first thought through my head was, "I really shouldn't read the TNL thread on this one." But I did. So much for self-control.
I'm glad he's caught, if only for this reason; the guy deserved it. He needs to be put in jail, to question, or whatever you guys what to do to him. See? Bipartisan; torture, trial, it's all good ^^
I'm also glad that, no matter what you want to say about the hows or the whys, that this whole liberation thing is being seen through. I remember a lot of reports not to long ago, I think around Thanksgiving, about how popular opinion was down, pull the troops out, and so on and so on. One, that would have made this the Gulf War all over again. Two, if we had pulled out when people were worried, would Saddam have been found before installing another base for a power grab?
Not like I know - ask Ali.
Nordic Warrior
I actually have no idea why I put "peaceful" in quotes, no sarcasm or pun intended.
And when Iraq went to war with Iran it was over the fact that one was secular the other extremist but it was also over Sunni and Shiite dislike of each other.
MORAL VICTORY!
I recall the night the war in Iraq was waged. Saddam or a reasonable facimile said something along those lines. He called for martyrs. Secular on paper just like the USA is a democracy on paper.
o_O
Wu-Tang is for the children!
Quick zephyrs blow, vexing daft Jim.
MORAL VICTORY!
I'm only assumeing he meant for the majority population of Islamic Iraqis. Then again, Christianity isn't part of the American government yet I'd be damned if it didn't seem that way.
o_O
Wu-Tang is for the children!
Good point
Quick zephyrs blow, vexing daft Jim.
Do you prefer dogs or cats?
Exactly how I feel. A prison should be constructed just for him and bin Laden. Incarcerated for life. Heck, maybe they'll think back and repent.
chase the devil
It does if it's important enough. Most labs take forever because they are lazy and have a que. If the prez orders a DNA test you can be sure it takes less time than a fucking microwave burrito.
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A secure prison. Solitary confinement.
None of this luxury bullshit that most high-profile prisoners get. A *real* prison, like serial killers get.
All he should get is an occasional book to read, basic sustenance, and a daily walk in a drab courtyard. Maybe let him write his memoirs, for historical record.
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Exactly. It's not like he's some slob on Jerry Springer with an angry woman yelling "YOU MY BABY'S DADDY!" at hime.
None of you are necessary!
Sausage King
About damned time we caught the son of a bitch. I hope we get to let the people of Iraq try him and do with him what they want.
I know that sounds really dumb, but I mean, the guy was a complete and total asshat. The worst kind of asshat, too. Bastard. Finally! WOO!
mindless
Genius.
As for the memoirs, wonder if it'd be as big as Mein Kampf?
Yami Marik
Hey, He's capturedGo team.....
mindless
"Hey, I'm apathetic, and couldn't give less of a shit about the end of a dictator's legacy!"Hey, He's captured
Outworld Neck Hair
GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO TEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAM!!!!!!
weebelizin'
Will Saddam's capture prove to be a trap for Bush?
By Mathew Maavak
December 14, 2003—It was pretty much of a shock to learn of Saddam Hussein's capture so soon. Then again, come to think of it, no! George W. Bush's popularity is dipping badly and those niggling questions about Sept 11 are now gaining feverish momentum.
This capture comes timely for the incumbent, and the immediate propaganda value will be enormous. But has Bush walked into a trap? Pretty likely, and the next few weeks or months are going to be crucial. Saddam's fate must now either be decided quickly (through an Iraqi bullet to his head?) or be prolonged long enough after the 2004 elections, through a series of legal wrangling. If the second scenario works out, there is there every likelihood of an uncustomary "adherence to international law" with teams of amici curiae given a free hand to wrangle over his legal rights. It will buy lots of time, provided the man shuts up.
This capture runs against the grain of obvious logic. Saddam is no Manual Noriega and he will command far more attention than Slobodan Milosevic. The video clip of him being examined by a doctor was typical of both US bravado and myopia. With him in "expert" medical hands, there will be some very hard explaining to do if anything untoward happened—a death or an unusually cooperative ex-dictator known for his wily tricks. Maybe a Soviet-style psychiatric institutionalization might jog his memory, one that will suit his hospitable hosts.
According to the BBC, Saddam was found holed up in a tiny cellar, not the secret command bunker we were implicitly led to believe, on and off. An argument can be made that this 'spider hole' contributed to his elusiveness. He just needed a food chain, from very few sources. Still, it is not a good one. For one, it will smash the Saddam in-the-secret bunker image that his Fedayeen found to be way over-hyped. There is something wrong here. Saddam may have indeed chosen a six by eight feet hole for safety as he knew only too well about the pandemic Arab treachery and the US$25 million bounty, especially after his sons died under a hail of US bullets, and his sons-in-law earlier, with his own blessings.
In Victor Ostrovsky's book By Way of Deception, a planned Palestinian terror attack was once thwarted by the discovery of an out-of-place order for quality beef. The scent of a pre-attack feast was too strong to ignore. With thousands of US troops—many of them from elite units—combing through Tikrit, how this genocidal criminal avoided capture until now is a mystery. They only needed 600 for this operation. No one in Tikrit knew where he was? Follow the money the trail, follow the food take-aways! There was US$750,000 with him. The trails were aplenty; all were leading to the same man.
This is indeed good news for the Iraqis and bad news for the Americans. Thus far, he has served the raison d'etre for the war, a tenuous one, it can be argued. Now what? The propaganda value of a shadowy Saddam, capable of wreaking havoc was inestimable. Much of that locus standi has now vanished. The Iraqis can now rise up to say, "The dictator is gone. Thank you, now please leave . . ." Is this going to happen? No! The US wasn't there for Saddam, and I don't think it was there for the oil, either. Sabotaged oil pipelines do create a literal smokescreen and a justification for continued occupation. Now, we shall see the true face of Iraqi guerrillas—a combination of nationalists and Islamists that the American media conveniently blamed on mastermind Saddam.
The euphoria will die down; the pot shots will get more frenzied. A car bomb killed at least 17 people near Baghdad yesterday. The joyous staccatos seen in the city just show how many weapons of celebration are around. They can be trained in a different direction another day soon. Are these the first salvoes that will shatter the myth of a "liberation" project?
It was in the White House's best interest to have had Saddam killed during the capture. Maybe US soldiers were still sore after the turkey dinner fiasco, or they were zealously carrying out their duty. Hardly any sane person would have wept for Saddam under any circumstances. He could have been handed over—quite innocently—to the Iraqis for a summary, Ceausescu-style execution. Gen Douglas MacArthur's quick disposal of Gen Tomoyski Yamashita in WWII is no longer quite possible. Like Gen MacArthur's macho posturing during his first meeting with a humbled Emperor Hirohito, the sight of a medic clinically examining a beaten, disheveled Saddam, instead of a defiant maniac, was really a bad propaganda shot . . . So, this was the one who struck fear into the hearts of "freedom-loving" people until 24 hours back?
What can Saddam do? He just needs to open his big mouth, after a shave, a good brush and gargles with Listerine He will recount all those scummy collusions with the US, which went right through the Kuwaiti occupation. Why were those Shi'ites betrayed? Who talked to whom? What was the deal? What about the other deals? Clips of exhumed bodies from that bloody crackdown more than a decade back was shown alongside Saddam's ignominious capture on BBC. Another pictorial blunder for the coalition! Was the BBC acting sneaky again? Those bodies incriminate Saddam and the Anglo-American alliance.
In fact, the incriminating evidence will be immeasurable. Civilian deaths, supply of arms, the semi-proxy war on Iran, will all come out of the horse's mouth. For every allegation, Saddam can retort, "Tu quoque (you too)!" It's a time-honored legal tactic, valid and destructive to the point that Hermann Goering was able to put up a brilliant defense during the Nuremberg trials. The man, much known for his follies and bizarre vanities, was just cured of a morphine addiction before being marched into the defendant's box. Even dope heads can pile up rebuttals to every allegation. Goering's statements are now memorable; they still linger in the minds of those caught in this New World Disorder. A defense by any tyrant can be slow poison. It can dent the gratitude of "liberated" peoples for ages to come. The Soviet General R.A. Rudenko's rape of Poland, and the subsequent Katyn forest massacre can make many Europeans skeptical about any war of liberation. Nazi war criminals repeatedly pointed to this famous allied cover up in their defense. How this led to many of them missing the hangman's noose is a little uncertain.
If Bush needs to win the next election, he needs to silence Saddam, Guantanamo-style, in seclusion. That will raise suspicions. Any medical mishap or anomaly will also raise suspicions. Not a very good situation, is it?
How are they going to answer their former ally, when every meeting with Donald Rumsfeld alone is going to be recounted in detail? Bribe and intimidate all those who can corroborate those shady minutiae? One possibility but a lot of it is already out in the public domain. If the dictator was ever that good in understanding power, he would have prepared for this day long back, with stashes of documents secreted away for his eventual defense. There is a likelihood, as early newscasts indicate, that Saddam might be handed over to the Iraqis, neither the ones brutalized nor the rational ones, but the ones most likely to parade him to the execution grounds, a brief stop before the onward journey to one of his former palaces, where, they will set their collaboration with US authorities firmly in stone. The sands of Arabia are a bit too fickle for that.
There is another possibility that whoever thought this through had done his homework very well, and the timing was impeccable. If true, students of propaganda will be using this incident as a case study for decades to come. Yet, it's too early to say anything for sure . . . We don't know all the facts yet.
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That's interesting.
I hadn't thought about Saddam telling of all his past dealings with the US.
A tricky situation, indeed.
Elite Gamer
Wow, I was reluctant to believe it so I came over here to check. Figured I'd find Stone and Almaci at it... Haven't been watching the news or been online much lately due to work. But yeah, it's great news. I hope the trial doesn't turn into somekind of circus though...
Shouldn't everyone who's for human rights, anti-dictator, anti-mass-murderer go nuts regardless of ideology? Hell, even Howard Dean was being bipartisan on this... But I think he's just starting his "move to the center" thing.You "suppose?" Do you mean you would've preferred him shot dead on the spot or is it bittersweet since it helps Bush somewhat?I'm sure everyone terrorized by Saddam for some 3 decades is happy as well. The Israelis, the Kuwaitis, the Kurds, the Shiias... Iranians included... Hint hint... Really, that's such a smug statement.
Well, better hope Bush doesn't get Bin Laden between now and next year... I mean, that would really raise his chances of winning the next election... Wouldn't want that, would we? Heh.
So, let's see, the Left-wing mantra/taunts have been, "Bush can't find Bin Laden; Bush can't find Saddam; Bush can't find the WMDs; and Bush can't find jobs for Americans... Ha ha ha, he he he, ho ho ho..." Well, 2 out of 4 ain't bad. It's interesting how any failure is attributed to Bush, but a success, well, then it's just, "Well, duh, Bush didn't actually capture him, our military did... I credit our military men and women who risked their lives..."Ha! That didn't take long. What site did you pull this garbage from? Of course, Bush was waiting for his approval rating to drop and then spring this up on the American ppl... Wish I had thought of that. Wait, Bush can't be _that_ smart though... I know, it was Karl Rove's idea...
"Don't be a pansy." - James
Nordic Warrior
I think a lot of people could go down if he did, but does it really matter? Donald Rumsfield has not only associated with the man but his strategic plans for our military are flawed and not in the best interests of ourselves or anyone for that matter. Who knows what could happen if Saddam spilled the beans and brought everything back to global attention, I'm actually interested to find out.
MORAL VICTORY!
He has facts to tell I'd like to hear them. I'm not interested in his story nor would I buy any sympathy anyone would sell - Just the facts.
o_O
can't wake up
What fiasco?
Anyway, all this left-wing apathy, and bullshit like what DOVESKI posted, just makes me laugh. It reminds me of maybe a month ago, when I was watching a news report about the economy and how it was picking up. And they were talking about how the Democrats really dont want the economy to pick up. So, yea, its great for them if Joe Sixpack can't buy Christmas presents for his family because he got laid off, its great if Johnny Lunchpail cant find a job for six months, and hey, lets hope and pray that even MORE Americans (the people they want to serve) lose their jobs over the next 11 months! That way, they can get THEIR FUCKING GUY in office! Yea, rock on, job loss!
So basically we captured a horrible dictator, and yea, left-wingers are like "so what?"... "its no big deal!"... "*I suppose* it's a good thing"... no fuckhead, you suppose nothing. This is a great thing, undoubtedly. Whether or not you are Republican, Democrat, anything. It's awesome.
But the failure for some Democrats to recognize this actually says a lot, it says they dont give a fuck about progress in Iraq. Well, they do, but really because they dont want to see any progress. If anything they want it to get worse, and who gives a fuck about the people who are there, right?
Shit, it will be great if more American troops die, more Iraqi babies die, more Baathists stay alive, and terror attacks continue. That way, they can get THEIR DUDE in office! Yea!
Fuck that.
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I'm a liberal, but I am glad Saddam has been captured.
The guy's a jackass, and deserves what's coming to him. It's even better that he's alive, so he actually has to FACE what's coming.
I just wish he could have been gotten without blowing up half the country in the process.
MORAL VICTORY!
Well, they are just the other side of the same coin man. Everyone in Washinton, it seems, has genuinely patriotic goals (most of them) but they only care about making sure thier program continues. They lose sight of human expence and who can say that Republicans care a whole heck of alot about that either? They're cut from the same cloth and I'm not tooting any sides horn. I never have ever.
The capture is a great thing, though the relevance in reguard to actions in the middle east continueing is yet to be seen - methinks it'll be small.
o_O
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