Pete Rose

[Diff-chan]

Peter Gammons, probably the wisest of all baseball writers (and maybe of all sports writers), would not vote for Petey given the chance.

Also, in an interview for ESPN, Fay Vincent brought up a comparison with Shoeless Joe Jackson that I mentioned on page 1 of this thread, thus proving once and for all that I can and should be commissioner of Major League Baseball.

[burgundy]

I'm assuming it's a lot like the current Derek Jeter myths? (that he is a good shortstop and a good hitter. It's not in the numbers, you gotta see him play! )

Are you saying he isn't a good shortstop or a good hitter?

[RedCoKid]

The people who I feel have offended and betrayed me does not include Rose; they are the commissioner's office (for ignoring hundreds of thousands of fans by continuing to ban him) and naysayers...

As far as I'm concerned, Rose can go to Cooperstown and sign tawdry items for those who, like him, have no respect for integrity, baseball or the Hall of Fame.

This is exactly what pisses me off. Too many conceited sportswriters take fun in criticizing his fans as much as the player. Gammons has it backward. Baseball no longer respects its fans (e.g., strikes, contraction, market disparity).

[Klonoa]

it's there now. It's on base % + Slugging %, and is a more effective tool for evaluating players than batting average. There are actually a whole bunch of even more complicated stats that all offer some really cool insights.

Indeed. Give me a player who hits .260 and gets on base at a .400 clip while having a slg % of .550-.600

Win shares, created by Bill James is a pretty cool measuring stick to show how important a player is to his team, any player who has a WS of 30 and over is MVP caliber.

Ichiro in his MVP season had a win share of 35 or 36.

ARod's win share is almost always over 30 and Pujols of last season had a win share around 36-40.

[Diff-chan]

This is exactly what pisses me off. Too many conceited sportswriters take fun in criticizing his fans as much as the player. Gammons has it backward. Baseball no longer respects its fans (e.g., strikes, contraction, market disparity).

Ahh, RedCoKid, you dont get it. See, youre supporting a guy who doesnt give a fuck about any of his fans, including you. He'll only care about you if you go to Cooperstown to get a ball signed by him or spend $24.95 on his book. He doesn't care about baseball either, he just wants his plaque on the wall. He is shameless. Why support a guy like that, even if you think he's the best player ever?

[stormy]

Are you saying he isn't a good shortstop or a good hitter?

Defensively Jeter is a below average to average shortstop. I'll say Jeter is a good hitter, but only if it's qualified with the phrase "for a middle infielder". Give me a sec and I'll go find a good article about it.

[stormy]

Here's 2 articles by Rob Neyer, mostly about his poor fielding skills. They are from 2001, when Jeter's hitting was fairly good. Notice it has actually continued to slip since a peak in 99 (2003 broke the pattern, but was a short season due to shoulder injury). He is not the shortstop most people think he is.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/columns/neyer_rob/1067831.html
http://espn.go.com/mlb/columns/neyer_rob/1073134.html

[burgundy]

That doesn't mean he's not a great player. All things considered, he's still an A (and not a B+, as I argued Wednesday). He's just not the A+ that some writers and broadcasters advertise.

Tim McCarver and the YES Network probably think Jeter is the best shortstop since Rizzuto. Anyone who compares him to A-Rod is insane, and Nomar had better stats when these articles were written (though he has since certainly declined.)

But you seemed to state that Jeter isn't a good hitter or a good shortstop. I'd say he's a damn good hitter and a good enough shortstop whose great plays always seem a lot more important than his bad ones.

[stormy]

Neyer called him an adequate fielding shortstop at best. This is the gist of what i was referring to.

Jeter's Range Factor is, in a word, execrable. It's execrable every year. Here's where he ranked, in each of the last five seasons, among major league shortstops who started at least 100 games:

1996 20th of 24
1997 16th of 24
1998 23rd of 25
1999 21st of 21
2000 23rd of 23

...
Is Jeter the worst defensive shortstop in the major leagues? Maybe he is, maybe he isn't. There is some evidence to suggest that he is, but I'm sure there's evidence to suggest that he isn't, too. My point is that there's no evidence to suggest that he's an outstanding defensive shortstop, or even a good one.

I said 3 posts up that he's a good hitter, he's a better hitter than he is a fielder anyway. But also, consider this article was written just as Jeter was coming off his offensive peak. Jeter's OPS over the last 3 years is .830, AL average OPS last year (couldn't find the last 3) was .750, meaning Jeter is 11% better than the average hitter. Like i said, this is good for a shortstop, but nothing that would be considered great. If his fielding is as bad as the numbers reflect (and i believe numbers more than i believe Tim McCarver), i'm not even sure he breaks even as an average shortstop. If you look at Jeter's Range Factor, and Zone Rating (The percentage of balls fielded by a player in his typical defensive "zone") since the article was written, both have continued to decline along with his hitting statistics.

For fun i brought up Todd Walker's fielding stats for a comparison. The Todd Walker of notoriously limited range and lackluster defense. Here are thier Zone Ratings for the last 2 years.

year jeter walker
2002 .803 .820
2003 .790 .788

I'm not sure if the Zone Ratings between different positions are actually directly comperable, but i would guess they are similiar enough to draw some conclusions. My conclusion is that the Yankees have a slightly better hitting version of Todd Walker playing shortstop, but pay him $18 million a year instead of the $1 million Todd is making.

I exagerate my opinion for effect sometimes, I know Jeter isn't a bad player. I even believe he brings some intangibles in the form of chemistry and team leadership. But he's also vastly over rated and over paid. Hence i refer to the situation as the myth of Derek Jeter. (I hear he shoots lightning bolts out his ass)

[burgundy]

He's definitely overrated...but he's definitely good, as well.