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Thread: Huygens probe lands on Titan

  1. The problem with stiring theory/M theory is that they lack any power of prediction.

    When Newton prostulated the Law of Universal Gravitation it was because of the similarities he noticed between Gallileo's experiments, and subsiquent predictions, in mechanics and the orbit of the moon around the earth. Afterwards he was able to use this theory to derive Kepler's laws of planetary motion, storng evidence.

    When Maxwell created electro-dynamics it not only explained the interaction and relation between electricity and magnetism, it also predicted the existance of E&M waves...we all know what those are.

    When Einstien created relativity it explained anomolies between extra-terrestrial observations and Newtonian mechanics. But it also predicted some new things like the effect of gravitation on light which could be scientifically tested.

    String theory does none of this. It is being developed because Quantam Mechanics and General Relativity do not agree. The way it does this is not very efficient or enlightening though, it's much like taking scissors to puzzle peices so they fit the way YOU want them to, ie. you're probobly not going to end up with a very good finished product. I don't think anything will ever come out of string theory except some good math.

    I also don't see why singularities could'nt exist. If there are continuous nowhere-differentiable functions then the universe can have singularities, as the first phenomonon is much more fucked up.
    Last edited by NoboruWataya; 17 Jan 2005 at 08:33 PM.
    I knew he was a commie, cause he didn't drink [duff] beer.

  2. Quote Originally Posted by Jetman
    M-Theory? So why 10 dimensions instead of 15 or 143 or 10076 dimensions? I know a theory is just something that hasnt been proven, but what knowledge does this person derive to formulate this fantastical idea, if any?
    It's part of the Gamma Function (Google) which describes a particle that is not a point particle but rather a "string" (this is what equations do, they describe a manefest behavior, reaction, substance, or entity. They're not just solveing for X) however, the Gamma Function, in order to describe anything realistically assumes not 3 - 4 but 10 dimensions. Without that, the equation doesn't add up. It helps that this equation pretty aptly describes the effect of gravity in the Simple Model (which is universally accepted in physics). The Simple Model can apply to all forces we know of EXCEPT for gravity. It's not quite right for there to be two kinds of physical law for one universe is it? String Theory in its blundering fixes that, if you accept its notions. M-Theory is the refineing of Strings. In String Theorys progress, there was derived not one but 5 conflicting theorys of strings. They all added up (once, of course, you accepted their notions). The problem is, if only one is right, then who lives in the other 4 universes*. M-Theory fixes that up nicely and describes how ALL of them apply to the same effect (and in 11 dimensions) and are (to put it simply, like how a cave man might describe the technical details manned-spaceflight) diffrent perspectives of the same theory. It works in the math, which is impressive enough, but fancy math doesn't make science and doesn't nessiarily describe our universe (though it's a good step towards that, since the universe speaks in math).

    It's very very easy to discount M-Theory, and not because it's "just a theory." I'd hate to point out the enormous amount of theorys that are applied every day in all manner of things and always, without fail, work. Meanwhile, there have been laws that have stayed laws for decades and then, been broken. Laws are not concrete, theorys are not nessiarily bullshit ideas. M-Theory differs in one way to most other theoretical physics in that it inherently cannot be tested, not for sure at least. They call that a "safe" theory. Those typically don't have much weight to them.

    I say all that because too many people say, "Oh it's just theory they don't really know anything," but the fact of the matter is, they do know quite a bit. Theory is variable but very often is as strong as some laws because it is known and excepted that laws can be broken because new facets of the universe are uncovered. That also leads to the tentiveness of calling a trusted theory a law, particularly because the unverse is revealing new layers of itself to us more frequently than in, say, Newtons day, where many "laws" wrote by Newton are now nothing more than science history than science itself.

    M-Theory definitly deserves inspection, and places like CERN and Fermilab will be will served either way by trying to find ways to test this (admitedly unbeliveable, yet potentialy Earth-shattering) theory. For progress, we need a unified field theory and M-Theory is basically all we've really got on it. If it does work, in someway shape or form. Our understanding of phenomina that we aren't even yet aware of (not to mention the whole of the universe, in a rough, general fashion) will very greatly increase and so to will our technology and who knows what boons might come of it. There are things like The Casmir Effect which is still unexplainable yet could, if properly understood, yield an unlimted souce of energy which we most certianly can use (this is called Zero-Point, I belive, and is actually the leading "silver-bullet" alternitive energy theory behind/next-to Cold Fusion). There's much much more that can be learned once we can understand those things in the universe which are both very small and also very massive (simultaniously). Like singularities and the effects there-in (wormholes, if you will... thats all speculation though). If with have a UFT then we'll at least know (or be generally pretty positive) about these things and whether or not they're really and truly real or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by JefmcC
    Real space travel will not happen without massive restructuring of the human body. IF nano tech becomes advanced enough, IF genetic engineering gets far enough, then it will be possible. Humans need to evolve themselves to the next level, beyond purely organic, in order to just survive long term space travel.
    There are painfully simple ways around that. If zero-g is a problem then add G's. You can make gravity from nothing but you can simulate it (as we have for decades) with centifugal force. A spaceship can be built as a Dyson-Sphere (you've played Halo yes?) and gravity can be simulated. The body won't know the diffrence. Building a space ship that does this well is expensive and must be built in space (likely in orbit) but it's entirely possible with todays technology and science.

    Propulsion is another key factor but it's also one that to me seems easy to get around. It's really another question of money and commitment. As time marches on and things like The Casmir Effect become understood, then we have a great chance at not only propelling ourselves into interstellar space but perhaps by bending space around us to get us to point B. You will note that I am NOT refering to wormholes but to a realistically tangeble idea that works almost entirely within our current model (which can be proven completely wrong) of the universe so long as the energy is there.

    Theres tons of solutions, some easier than others. Some ready at hand, others pretty much around the corner. It's far from impossible. But need, effort and expence keep it out of reach.

    And we did go to the moon.



    *This was a quote shamelessly ripped from the PBS Nova special "The Elegant Universe," which I liked enough to refrence here. It's worth the 3 hours to watch despite the repition. The book of the same name by Brian Green is worth a glance too. Hawking is a great, "Physics for Dummies," author (and most definitly a great mind) but there's other books WELL worth reading on the subject. Siefe's "Zero," Kaku's "Hyperspace," and Davie's "Mind of God" are all worth your time.
    Last edited by Tracer; 18 Jan 2005 at 03:21 AM.
    o_O

  3. Quote Originally Posted by NoboruWataya
    The problem with stiring theory/M theory is that they lack any power of prediction.

    When Newton prostulated the Law of Universal Gravitation it was because of the similarities he noticed between Gallileo's experiments, and subsiquent predictions, in mechanics and the orbit of the moon around the earth. Afterwards he was able to use this theory to derive Kepler's laws of planetary motion, storng evidence.

    When Maxwell created electro-dynamics it not only explained the interaction and relation between electricity and magnetism, it also predicted the existance of E&M waves...we all know what those are.

    When Einstien created relativity it explained anomolies between extra-terrestrial observations and Newtonian mechanics. But it also predicted some new things like the effect of gravitation on light which could be scientifically tested.

    String theory does none of this. It is being developed because Quantam Mechanics and General Relativity do not agree. The way it does this is not very efficient or enlightening though, it's much like taking scissors to puzzle peices so they fit the way YOU want them to, ie. you're probobly not going to end up with a very good finished product. I don't think anything will ever come out of string theory except some good math.

    I also don't see why singularities could'nt exist. If there are continuous nowhere-differentiable functions then the universe can have singularities, as the first phenomonon is much more fucked up.

    This is a good post and yes, thats String theory in a nutshell, but you can't deny both the holes in the Standard Model and the working math behind Strings (based, moreorless, around a pre-existing function). It's worth a look, though not worth anyones faith (which is pretty much is what its going to call for).
    o_O

  4. I'd like to make a correction: The Gamma Function doesn't descibe gravity, but rather the Strong Nuclear Force. It also doesn't assume 10 dimensions, but rather, another physicist derived an equation from it describing strings (the how and why are somewhat unknown to me) and IT is the formula which had problems, such as massless particles, anomolys and such. To clear the anomolys there were needed 10 dimensions. This formula however descibed a tachyon (or massless particle) which was later identified as gravitational force (since gravity is very weak). The full details (and I surely got some of this wrong) are not known by me. But this is a vauge, if somewhat incorrect, description of how M-Theory has come into being. Reading/Watching "The Elegant Universe," should help better.

    Sorry for the long posts.
    o_O

  5. #25
    Fucking fascinating. Too bad I'll never wade through math to get to high-level math, becaust it's always been where the excitement and knowledge is.

    And this probe on Titan thing is cool too.

  6. Quote Originally Posted by station82o
    heh yeah wasn't it supposed to be a e ?
    Yeah, but that had been done before.

  7. This formula however descibed a tachyon (or massless particle) which was later identified as gravitational force (since gravity is very weak).
    The great mystery of physics... identifying the carrier of the gravitational force.

    There is also ANOTHER interesting gamma function: http://mathworld.wolfram.com/GammaFunction.html

    Note the awsome identities gamma(1)=1 and gamma(n+1)=(n+1)*gamma(n) which mean that for positive integers gamma(n-1)=n! ..!!!!
    Last edited by NoboruWataya; 18 Jan 2005 at 08:04 PM.
    I knew he was a commie, cause he didn't drink [duff] beer.

  8. Awesome thread here guys, didn't think Tracer was a physics buff along with you other guys. Space has always been facinating to me but I never get around to do the heaver work in math/sciences.

    Cool pics of the place so far but sometimes I wonder how planets look and imagine something really fantastical and then when I see actual pictures they look like filtered pics of a desert

  9. Instead of a space elavator, should put it along the ground, making it a hell of a lot cheaper, safer and functional. You could get to Hawaii in seconds! Or Australia! Or McDonalds!

    Much better than a lifeless rock in space where you'll have a spot of bother getting a sun tan (and a McDonalds for that matter). Or maybe it would be better for a sun tan, I don't know and can't be arsed looking it up. And those bastards at the golden arches would probably have spotty teenagers flipping burgers up there before you can say "moonshake"

  10. Quote Originally Posted by Tracer
    Sorry for the long posts.
    Dont sweat it,man.Thanks for answering my question.

    That was an interesting read (and I did read all of it). How much of it I understood is another story.Maybe once I get through Physics I and II next year along with Statics, I'll be able to come back and translate it a bit better.

    And with that - I'm off to google this Casmir Effect as I've never heard of that before.

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