So, I join Nick

[Master of 7s]

I like all of you folks here at TNL, but I don't think the maturity level is high enough to be able to advise haoh on this situation. More importantly, if he's listening to what we have as input, I feel sorry for him. Scourge, perhaps, is really the only one so far whose advice is sound.

Considering that the average age of TNL is 25 and under and that most people here have no children and/or significant other this comes as no surprise. Whatever Haohmaru's reasons for sharing this info, I hope it wasn't for advice.

Or worse yet, reinforcement for a libido going through a possible midlife crisis. Why share that he's banging some girl half his age otherwise?

This is exactly the point I've been making. Anyone who thinks that haoh should do what makes him happy at this point is clearly not mature enough to have a child. If they were married for eight years without a kid, whatever, I'd say pay to get the bitch out of the door and then go hop on the young chick, but that's not the case.

Seriously, how mature is a twenty-year-old in the first place? Is she going to help him when depression, self-doubt, and all the guilt over this situation sets in? What happens to his self-esteem when she gets bored with him and finds someone younger? Moreover, when Haoh wakes up and realizes that he has nothing in common with this girl but sex, where does it go from there?

This girl he is fucking is serving the same function as painkilling medication. Once the effectiveness wears off, then what?

Anyone who slights marriage counseling based on personal experience or anecdotal evidence wasn't putting in the effort. This is frustrating, where is haoh to tell us more and respond?

Counseling works. But only if you let it.

Haoh may have been trying to make this work internally for years, but unfortunately humans are very self-centered creatures and often can not see a situation objectively. In cases like these a third, outside party is often a nessecity because they aren't right in the middle of the situation and can view things as they really are.

I don't care how badly you want to make something work, humans are not insular creatures. We interact with others because they posess knowledge and understanding we do not. I can personally attest to the fact that trying to resolve serious family problems internally only makes the problem worse.

It gets to a point where you have to say "I cannot do this. I need help."

[Fe 26]

I agree you should go for counseling. If only to help things look better if she turns super bitch and wants all your shit.

"He's an evil man, I NEED ALL HIS SHIT"
"T_T BUT I LOVE YOU BABY, ;_; I even paid for us to get counseling"

[haohmaru]

Where have I been? At my parents house without an internet connection. :P

Yeah, okay, here's my take on the whole situation.

1.) The wife and I have been having "silent" troubles for years now - ie..., no intimacy, little conversation, not going out together all that much, coming home and going to separate rooms ASAP, etc... There isn't animosity in any sense of the word, we both drifted waaaaaaaaay apart for a period of many, many years and that "feeling", whatever it used to be, is now gone for me. I've made considerable effort, vocally and other, to rectify this over a period of years without much success. Only now, that I've left, does she realize that it was serious.

2.) Yes, the child is a huge factor and in reality is the ONLY factor that has me considering any kind of reconciliation at all. No kid and I'd be gone without question - which leads to the inevitable conclusion that I can either be a good bi-weekly dad and not be a prick about child support, attending kids functions, etc... or I can live in a miserable marriage for the sake of being around all the time for the child. Those are tough choices - I think divorce is a terrible reality for many, many children and it's not neccessarily always a bad thing. Two people being miserable together in front of the kid is even worse.

3.) The 20 year old was brought up because she *is* a factor. It's not a sexually driven relationship - there's a huge connection between us that comes along rarely in one's lifetime. Perhaps it drove me to "get out" sooner than I would have otherwise, but I would've gotten out with or without "the factor". I don't question that we would have a terrific future together (which she genuinely believes also) but there is a tremendous cost. If she were 30, would this be looked at any differently? She would still be an outside factor, still be influencing (somewhat) my decision making, and would be worth consideration. Not all 20 year olds have a 20 year old mindset - I never did when I was 20.

Yeah, it's been a long, downward spiral, but I have to wonder if he's had an honest face-to-face with his wife to really talk this stuff out. It would help, even if it didn't save anything. Clearing the air can do wonders. And as far as counseling goes, having an intermediary there provides a detached third party with an outside perspective that could help either the separation process, or possibly help the marriage out itself.

Yeah, I've had the honest face to face and have basically said that you can only kick sand in the dog's face so many times before the dog gets mean. And, yes, there have been multiple extensive conversations about it. I don't know that I can get the feeling back to make this work via counseling or anything else - I can't "make it" return and feel like it's gone.

[Scourge]

Yeah, I've had the honest face to face and have basically said that you can only kick sand in the dog's face so many times before the dog gets mean. And, yes, there have been multiple extensive conversations about it. I don't know that I can get the feeling back to make this work via counseling or anything else - I can't "make it" return and feel like it's gone.

I really can't understand someone not even seriously considering counseling when there's a kid in the picture. I'm not trying to pass judgement here, I'm just saying that offhandedly dismissing it seems strange to me. If you "don't know that (you) can get the feeling back ... via counseling" I still have to ask, what's the harm in trying it out then? I know you think you'll always be miserable with your wife because of the way it's been for several years, but you may be wrong, and counseling might help, so what's so bad about trying it out?

It seems to me you've already got it figured out, and that's because you've already started a relationship elsewhere that gives you what you feel is missing in your marriage, so why bother, right? I have a feeling in few years you might realize that you handled things in a pretty fucked up manner. Yeah, that's worded harshly and I'm still trying not to pass judgement, but it's really easy to ignore reality in the midst of it because something that feels really good, can't possibly be all that bad, right?

[Mzo]

Changing a life that's so set demands a lot of courage.

I hope everything works out for you; you only have one life, and there's no reason to trudge throught it miserably. Good luck, Haoh.

[Josh]

The 20 year old isn't from the internet is she?

I have found that girls can sound very smart, and on your level on the computer. But if you ever meet them TWO THUMBS DOWN STUPID BITCH ALERT. You know?

Just be careful.

[Scourge]

Changing a life that's so set demands a lot of courage.

I hope everything works out for you; you only have one life, and there's no reason to trudge throught it miserably. Good luck, Haoh.

I don't think a 40 year old man leaving his wife and kid for a 20 year old chick takes a lot of courage.

[haohmaru]

I don't think a 40 year old man leaving his wife and kid for a 20 year old chick takes a lot of courage.

Everything you've said has been fairly well reasoned with the exception of the above. I'm not leaving my wife FOR the 20 year old - the 20 year old happens to be there. I've been considering this *for years*, not for the sake of banging some cute chick and suddenly feeling like I'm on top of the world. This has been very, very long in the making and much of it through actions and deeds that were initiated by my wife. I could go into great detail here, but it wouldn't serve much of a purpose. And, yes, I understand there's a child involved and counseling seems to make perfect sense to you because of that. However, I'm sure you've had girlfriend's that you've been serious with before and maybe were considering marrying - a single event can change an entire relationship without hope of ever repairing it. Let's say your significant other had sex with someone else while being committed to you - would you go to counseling or tell the bitch to get fucking lost? My wife didn't do this, afaik, but I'm trying to give you an example of where counseling serves no purpose because you can't overcome whatever feelings you might have. I, for one, would never be able to trust that partner again and that single event would move the relationship to the "dead phase" and I would not consider counseling in that event. I think other events can lead to a similar outcome, wherein you know in your heart of hearts that you cannot go back.

And, making the decision to leave a child does require a certain kind of courage and too many people stay married for the sake of the child and rear the kid in a hostile, loveless, miserable environment because they are too chicken shit to split and do the right thing.

[Thief Silver]

And, making the decision to leave a child does require a certain kind of courage and too many people stay married for the sake of the child and rear the kid in a hostile, loveless, miserable environment because they are too chicken shit to split and do the right thing.

This news is completely true, and I guarentee that the child of the father who left the mother can be better off than the child in a harsh environment. It also depends on the mother though, if your wife is a cold-hearted bitch who will take out her problems on the child etc, then you need to do something about it. But I don't know her so I can't actually say anything, but hell as long as you make sure your child is ok and protect them, it's better than a bitter environment.

My girlfriend's parents split up (Because her sister set her dad up with one of her friends wtf?) and compared to a lot of my friends who are in shitty household environments, she's a lot better.

[haohmaru]

The 20 year old isn't from the internet is she?

I have found that girls can sound very smart, and on your level on the computer. But if you ever meet them TWO THUMBS DOWN STUPID BITCH ALERT. You know?

Just be careful.

Nah, I'm not an internet chick kind of guy - I like to see the goods in person before I say something stupid. :P

In any case, I've known her for over a year and it's not a fluke or whim.