Web Designers, Your day just got worse

[Thief Silver]

Using PHP to do inserts/updates/etc. Even on a one-line entry, it tosses that return/break crap.

Ah ok, I've only done it with ASP.NET so never actually had to do anything through IIS (for the most part)

[Calliander]

Ah ok, I've only done it with ASP.NET so never actually had to do anything through IIS (for the most part)

Yeah, my buddy's hosting servers are run on Windows so any time I write code that interacts even with SQL, I have to make sure to urlencode it, wipe out the extra line breaks, then urldecode it. On my machine, I don't have to do that since I'm using Darwin, Apache, PHP, and MySQL.

[jonas]

Flash is great for band websites and whatnot.

'Straight' Programmers... all the same. Ignorant and willing to unchange.

(I say straight, because I program Actionscript, PHP, CSS and HTML but I use graphics and Flash. Flash is a great piece of software if you know how to use it. The future.)

[mollipen]

Yeah, Flash is great for a website.

Oh, wait, I want to go back and re-read what I was just looking at. Whoops... can't, because it is Flash.

Hey, I want to copy this text I'm reading and save it for myself. Whoops... can't, because it is Flash.

Just two examples of why I hate it when people think they need to use Flash to build an entire website. If you're going to have some fluff site that isn't all that important, where you rely on people staying there due to being flashy and pretty versus your content, that's fine, use Flash.

But for any REAL website, I think it is a total mistake to rely heavily on Flash. 99% of the sites I see that use Flash are perfect examples of style over substance, and usabilty gets tossed out in the process.

[Drewbacca]

Hybrid sites always look the nicest. Flash integration is awesome and if you have a designer who knows how to use typography and a good concept you can end up with a site people will remember. Most sites are pretty grid oriented, and Flash helps remove that restriction.

Just two examples of why I hate it when people think they need to use Flash to build an entire website. If you're going to have some fluff site that isn't all that important, where you rely on people staying there due to being flashy and pretty versus your content, that's fine, use Flash.

But for any REAL website, I think it is a total mistake to rely heavily on Flash. 99% of the sites I see that use Flash are perfect examples of style over substance, and usabilty gets tossed out in the process.

Calling flash websites not real sites is idiotic.

[Tracer]

I'm actually with Shidoshi on this, and there's no reason why you can't have a non-grid-like site w/o flash. It's a matter of how well resolved your tables are and where you place things in those tables. Addressing the problems that shidoshi mentioned would help Flash along greatly but those are the reasons why Flash is nothing more than decoration or a means to communicate non-text information (i.e. animation and so on). I'd use it, but it wouldn't be involved in anything that is "mission critical."

[jonas]

Oh, wait, I want to go back and re-read what I was just looking at. Whoops... can't, because it is Flash.

If you design interfaces properly. The user will not have to press the back button because you provide them with a way to get back to where they were. Bad flash designers dont equal everyone.

Hey, I want to copy this text I'm reading and save it for myself. Whoops... can't, because it is Flash.

You can do this in Flash, I don't know what you were trying to copy.
Although, it can be turned off.

Just two examples of why I hate it when people think they need to use Flash to build an entire website. If you're going to have some fluff site that isn't all that important, where you rely on people staying there due to being flashy and pretty versus your content, that's fine, use Flash.

See, this is the ignorant crap I'm talking about. You can do a lot in Flash and I doubt you even know the basics.

But for any REAL website, I think it is a total mistake to rely heavily on Flash. 99% of the sites I see that use Flash are perfect examples of style over substance, and usabilty gets tossed out in the process.

Oh right, websites should be white backgrounds with 4 buttons on the left. These buttons must not have more than 3 colours and the fonts must be arial.
Whatever. Good Flash sites exist. It all depends on the designer. There are a lot of crappy ones out there.

why Flash is nothing more than decoration

That's your opinion. It is not fact. Flash is a very useful tool that sadly a lot of 'programmers' are ignorant towards. Mostly I find they don't understand it and thus they don't want anything to do with it.
It's sad.

[mollipen]

Oh right, websites should be white backgrounds with 4 buttons on the left. These buttons must not have more than 3 colours and the fonts must be arial.

The hell are you talking about? Just because you don't use Flash doesn't mean that you can't have a site that is interesting and has a nice design.

Take my forums for example. You calling that a site with a white background, four buttons on the left, and all of that other stuff?

The problem I have with Flash is exactly what you seem to be saying here - that if you want a nice looking site, you have to use Flash. That's utter BS.

Flash absolutely can be used to make great looking sites. The problem comes in when you have things like news sites saying, "Hey, let's make our site with Flash! It will be fun!" Flash, in my opinion, still has too many problems to be used for sites where the content is the most important element over everything else. (Which is where my "real sites" comment comes from, by the way.) If you've just got a fun little site where it isn't about large amounts of conent, fine - use Flash.

But you still have to think about all of the people that you might be turning off. Flash still isn't on every computer out there, and if you've got a slower computer, Flash can quickly kill your browser. Flash doesn't play nice with the basic elements of the browser, such as the back and forward button. I don't care what the site's desiger wants to do - I'm the visitor, and if I want to be able to use the back and forward buttons that are STANDARD on every browser, I should be able to. Flash elements, such as links, can't be changed according to the needs of people - people who are colorblind, require underlined links, require links and text to be bigger or smaller, etc.

Flash, at this point, is still about style over substance. I don't care what you say, that's simply the truth. Flash shouldn't be used because you can then make buttons click or make a wizz-bang into to your website... which, by the way, if you are making an INTRO MOVIE for your website, please kill yourself now. Flash should be used to improve the user experience and do things that HTML and CSS cannot do, when those things are NEEDED for the experience being presented.

Calling flash websites not real sites is idiotic.

I kind of brought this up in my reply to Jonas, but that's not at all what I was saying. I said, "But for any REAL website, I think it is a total mistake to rely heavily on Flash" - nowhere in that do I say that Flash websites aren't real sites. What I meant was sites that exist for a specific reason and purpose, and don't just exist to show off design.

[Diff-chan]

If I was designing a videogame (I have a few ideas in my head from when I was a kid, they might come into fruition), Id probably use Flash, but no way in hell would I design a website with it. The second I realize a site Im at is coded completely in Flash I leave it. XHTML, CSS, etc. have all evolved so much and you can do really really cool stuff without touching Flash.

Microsoft products are shit.

Visual Studio is actually pretty amazing and way ahead of whats out there. Generally their development tools are top-notch, because thats what they need, people coding for their platform... DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS

[Melf]

One of you coding gurus needs to redesign my web site.


I'd say thank you! Honest!