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Thread: Public Debt

  1. Yeah, it is just a gas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Razor Ramon View Post
    I would suck your dick.

  2. Somebody tell me again why most people considered Ron Paul to be an extreme kooky nut-job candidate last election? He was seriously the only person running who made any kind of sense.

    But no, we don't get to have a choice like that because of our 2-party system. And both parties are so insane that a sane 3rd party candidate looks loony in comparison.

  3. Quote Originally Posted by Gooch View Post
    The end of credit cycle as we knew it has led to a global balance sheet recession and demand destruction. Rather than profit maximization and consumption being the motives driving the animal spirits, they have been replaced by capital preservation and deleveraging, hence the "balance sheet" driven recession.

    In order to prevent the economy, domestic and international, from falling into a depression, the Federal Reserve and central banks around the world engaged in a mission of quantitative easing which involved essentially taking interest rates down to zero (or if not zero, solidly below the rate of inflation so that on a net basis it is zero or negative), providing a steep yield curve, currency devaluations, providing backstops for plummeting asset values (also preventing more write-downs) via implicit or explicit guarantees, direct access to cheap and plentiful funding, and more liquidity via the steroid fueled printing and creation of money. Anchored firmly in their Keynesian economic beliefs, they sought to replace the destroyed private sector demand with government demand/consumption and restore confidence to the markets so they became the buyers of last resort, propping up sectors via govt-created demand in mortgages, toxic assets, and treasuries, in some cases directly setting a floor on asset values and in others by providing guarantees which reduce the risk profile of various assets in the eyes of private and global investors, cajoling their participation.

    Their fear was a depression, where the psychological devastation that would occur (as seen by those who lived in the late 1920s onward) would impact the population for generations, solidly stunting economic growth prospects for decades, possibly the death of the post-war economic system (Bretton Woods II), and potentially social unrest, which is the worst fear of any government wishing to maintain its platform of power. The central banks felt that extending the duration of the pain and amortizing it at their determined (and tweakable) rate would be the lesser of the two evils, they chose a prolonged recession over a depression with the hope that it would not be a double-dip recession. The virtues of their choice are debatable, but this is essentially what they did. Committed to battling deflation, central banks willingly risk hyperinflation in their efforts to flush the economy with printed currency in order to allow for the asset reinflation we've seen in areas such as the equity markets, commodity prices, pension and retirement funds, loan values, property values, and so on, all of which restore confidence, though of diluted value.

    Inflation cannot occur without more money actually being deployed in the economy, the velocity and multiplier effects. However, neither can a recovery. But before this velocity and multiplication will genuinely occur, it seems the deleveraging and re-capitalization that needs to occur take place, allowing for a progression towards an economic recovery driven by sustainable job creation, restored confidence and demand, stable and solid political leadership, and clear continued growth prospects. Leading up to this point, central banks will seek to tighten policy and remove excess liquidity from the markets at an appropriate pace that simultaneously won't derail the progress made yet effectively prevent over- or hyperinflation. Some have been able to start already (Australia has hiked rates three times and look do so for a fourth), some are in the early stages of tightening (very moderate, i.e. U.S. with end of treasury purchases, MBS purchases, discount rate hikes) while some seek further tightening but struggle with balancing the degree (China, reserve requirement hikes, reduced lending, currency appreciation). There are some still uncertain if tightening can begin or if more easing is required such as the United Kingdom. There are some who cannot further ease due to fears or inflation (Europe), treaty restrictions (Europe), loss of competitive advantage (China), or fears of triggering a double-dip recession (everybody).

    The excessive debts for the most part have now been transferred from the private sector to the governments. Sovereign risk is now at the forefront. Sovereign defaults or near death encounters have already been seen from Iceland to Latvia to Dubai to Greece to may soon be seen in Spain, Ireland, Belgium, France, the UK, China, and the U.S., who knows where else? We are seeing protectionism, mercantilism, social unrest, and geopolitcal manuvering, all in the midst of a global economic crisis.
    I have been trying to explain roughly this to many people since the beginning of this whole "crisis", although in much simpler terms. I am not sure if the idea I get across is any clearer though.

    Still, I am not sure that the outlook is quite as fatalistic as this implies, the incentive on the financial institutions to not allow major governments to fall into social chaos seems like it may outweigh the typical risk management of defaulting. Even though diffusion of responsibility is one hell of a force, I am firmly on the side that the whole world is not going to collapse over this, barring a tactical move from china.
    Check out Mr. Businessman
    He bought some wild, wild life
    On the way to the stock exchange
    He got some wild, wild life

  4. Quote Originally Posted by Cheebs View Post
    Somebody tell me again why most people considered Ron Paul to be an extreme kooky nut-job candidate last election? He was seriously the only person running who made any kind of sense.

    But no, we don't get to have a choice like that because of our 2-party system. And both parties are so insane that a sane 3rd party candidate looks loony in comparison.
    Ron Paul is a nut-job, many of the things he says are complete horse crap, not to mention he's most likely racist. Just because he said a few things that needed to be said doesn't mean he was a worthy candidate, or would be a good President.
    Last edited by Diff-chan; 05 Apr 2010 at 09:37 AM.

  5. The problem with Ron Paul is his delivery. THERE IS NO WAY YOU COULD JUST DO WHAT HE SAYS IN THE MANNER HE WANTS WITHOUT CAUSING COMPLETE ANARCHY. He has great ideas - get rid of lobbyists, don't allow the federal reserve to control the flow of money in America because it is a PRIVATE organization which has no right to meddle in core American affairs, reduce government spending, and reinstall American's right to privacy.

    But he wants to go further and turn the clock back almost entirely. There have been good bills passed in modern day along with the bad, and doing this without any semblance of a strategy makes him seem like a cooky idealist who doesn't put much thought in to practical application.
    Quote Originally Posted by rezo
    Once, a gang of fat girls threatened to beat me up for not cottoning to their advances. As they explained it to me: "guys can usually beat up girls, but we are all fat, and there are a lot of us."

  6. Quote Originally Posted by Drewbacca View Post
    The problem with Ron Paul is his delivery. THERE IS NO WAY YOU COULD JUST DO WHAT HE SAYS IN THE MANNER HE WANTS WITHOUT CAUSING COMPLETE ANARCHY. He has great ideas - get rid of lobbyists, don't allow the federal reserve to control the flow of money in America because it is a PRIVATE organization which has no right to meddle in core American affairs, reduce government spending, and reinstall American's right to privacy.
    Well, something big has to be done right now.

    And nobody is doing anything but screaming at the opposite political party. It's like being inside of a building that is on fire and spending 100% of your energy arguing over who farted.
    Last edited by Cheebs; 05 Apr 2010 at 03:41 PM.

  7. How come the gov't can get away with it, and we can't?

    And China owns us.

    *I'm not in any debt, thanks to my Mom.
    You don't have to be smart; you don't have to know the facts, you just have to be confident.

    http://gamercards.exophase.com/37676.png

  8. Your soul is in debt for your faggotry, sorry.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by Beefy Hits View Post
    How come the gov't can get away with it, and we can't?
    There is a very good explanation of why a sovereign government's finances are handled differently from a regular citizen, and I invite you to explore it in virtually any introductory economics textbook.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by Destin View Post
    I have been trying to explain roughly this to many people since the beginning of this whole "crisis", although in much simpler terms. I am not sure if the idea I get across is any clearer though.
    One thing I have observed is the reluctance or sheer failure to grasp the concept that this is not a normal recession, the recovery will be prolonged, what specifically the nature of the affliction is, and that there is no certainty that we are better off or won't revisit (or exceed) the recent depths from which we came despite the massive amounts of stimulus. Most of us grew up during the credit boom, the era of gluttonous consumption, and the understanding of debt and lasting impact of a depression weren't psychologically instilled in our lifetimes as we may have noticed in the frugal, prudent lifestyles of those we know who did live during that era. We thought over the long-run the stock market always goes up. You can't lose in real estate. Everybody believed this and maybe we will go back to that normalcy but it is not sustainable and the repercussions compound like usury interest rates.

    Otherwise, the concept of debt, our monetary system, our financial system is itself is a another discussion involving more than just economics.

    Still, I am not sure that the outlook is quite as fatalistic as this implies, the incentive on the financial institutions to not allow major governments to fall into social chaos seems like it may outweigh the typical risk management of defaulting. Even though diffusion of responsibility is one hell of a force, I am firmly on the side that the whole world is not going to collapse over this, barring a tactical move from china.
    We, as Americans, and we as human beings all over the planet will get through this. Some will suffer more than others, some will surely prosper, and the world will change. This isn't just like the other times in terms of the impact and lasting ramificaions. The human error component is like the other times. But the last financial crisis of this magnitude that I am aware of historically was the Great Depression. And that spawned policy error (Smoot-Hawley), reform (Securities Acts 1933 and 1934), and it also lead to a World War (arguably driven by imperialistic and mercantilistic motivations), and established a global financial system with the US Dollar as the world's reserve currency.

    And we now see a global financial recession, with all other nations are dependent on the US leading them out of the recovery. Assisted maybe by China. The US is by far the largest economy in the world. It is also the largest consumer nation in the world by a large margin. The nations that comprise the #s 2-4 largest economies are Japan, China, and Germany. Those three are all export-driven, export dependent economies all suffering through their own recessions. They need demand to supply and sell into. The U.S. is the largest source of that demand. The U.S., however, is going through its own recession, so that demand has been reduced. The US seeks its way to recovery and oddly enough part of its strategy involves increasing its own exports. But with large economies running fiscal and trade deficits, who can import more goods than they export if they have any hope of recovery? The entire world cannot run a surplus nor can it run a deficit. It has to zero out. Only nations with surpluses. Like China and Germany and Japan. But those nations are export dependent and have their own unique crisis to deal with in their own countries. And they never were exactly monster consumers anyway; it didn't seem to be in their nature. So now you want them to consume more, and export less. In a recession with their own recovery no certainty. Tough sell, but the market may have it occur. And politics can accomplish a lot.
    Last edited by Gooch; 09 Apr 2010 at 01:01 AM.

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