[eM] -eNCHANT arM-

[Opaque]

There's no excuse for random battles, I dont care what anyone says.

DQVIII says gtfo.

Seriously though, I think it's time they get left behind for good. It was fine last gen for a title to have them if everything else was top notch, but there's no logical reason for enemies to appear randomly anymore when rendering them won't tax the hardware. I mean shit, if Dead Rising can put 1,000 zombies on screen [eM] could have put a few ninjas wandering around a mountain.

[Jetman]

Its alarming that most sports games, like Madden, release almost the EXACT same shit EVERY YEAR and I don't see those games getting 5's because they are similar to other sports games.

I saw pretty much exactly what you are talking about in the latest issue of OPM at work. Madden 2007 and Disgaea 2 were on basically the same page in the review section , Madden got a 9/10 score and Disgaea 2 got like a 6.5/10. Reasons? 'Disgaea 2 was too similar to the first game and the market has seen too much of these games and doesnt need to see anymore for another decade.'
Madden 2007? ' Innovative running back feature.'

Seems like a lot of these mags are handing the wrong games to the wrong reviewers. If a certain reviewer thinks that the market is too saturated with Strat RPG's then its likely that the dude is pretty much burnt out on them and shouldnt be doing any sort of write-ups about said games. Kind of like if I handed a copy of Dai Senryaku III to my friends 5 year old daughter and said "Enjoy!" . I doubt she would.

[StriderKyo]

Random battles a hopelessly outdated remnant from an era where systems couldn't handle keeping track of hundreds of permanent monsters?

Random battles are a remnant of the pen & paper games all rpgs are based on. In D&D the dungeon master would create a scenario with deliberate battles planned, and then pepper them with random encounters by rolling dice to see if one would come up at certain points. It's not because of technology, there were early rpgs where all the battles were instanced.

[Opaque]

Speaking of lets actually talk about [eM], those of you who are playing it, how far are you % wise and how much time do you have in this game?

I just read a post by a kid at another forum who said he's at the Emperor or Fire and he's 26 hours in and still having trouble beating him. I beat him around the 7 hours mark and now I'm 92% through the game with only 21 hours put in. Other people who's times I heard clocked in the final battle after the 40 hours mark and most people hit 30 hours before the 70% mark.

[MechDeus]

Random battles are a remnant of the pen & paper games all rpgs are based on. In D&D the dungeon master would create a scenario with deliberate battles planned, and then pepper them with random encounters by rolling dice to see if one would come up at certain points. It's not because of technology, there were early rpgs where all the battles were instanced.

While I'm sure that was exactly the feel the guys that made [eM] were aiming for and that they're all huge D&D fans it's still retarded. There are other, far superior ways to handle chance encounters.

If game developers wanted it to be random like that they could at the very least simply make the amount and type of "trigger" creatures (as in: the visible overworld creatures that represent a pack of enemies) random as opposed to just having ether shit things out. Random battles in the spawn-out-of-nothingness sense are an old, outdated, lazy technique that needs to stop.

Seems like a lot of these mags are handing the wrong games to the wrong reviewers. If a certain reviewer thinks that the market is too saturated with Strat RPG's then its likely that the dude is pretty much burnt out on them and shouldnt be doing any sort of write-ups about said games.

Why does it seem that way? As an example, allow me to take a quote from someone on this board that's a fan of Disgaea 2 and enjoyed playing it:

The thing is, that fans know what they are getting into. If you liked the first one, you will like the second. I personally have played enough of the import to know that I will like it. It really is a re-engineering of the first with tweaks, but that's ok with me. Laharl and co. are all hidden characters. I mean for me, I'd be perfectly happy with the same game with new locales or expansions, something I think NIS should have done a while ago (offer expansion packs for existing games). New classes, maps, weapons, etc. The engine works fine for me.

But I also see the point for others. They want new, fresh, etc. You aren't going to get that here. I totally agree with RedCo's points on Makai, yet I love that game to death. It worked for me. I know it is a C or lower game, but I gave it a B simply for enjoyment factor, but then again I enjoy powerleveling for 100+ hours. A lot of you won't. I enjoy finding weird weapons in bonus dungeons, leveling vehicles, etc. I like figuring out how best to level up characters, etc.

Hm. Even though he liked playing it, it sounds to me like he echoed exactly what you said OPM brought up. If fans and reviewers are in agreeance on what the game does right and wrong but they - as people are wont to do - have differing opinions on how they enjoy those particular things, can you really fault them? The point of reviews is to tell you how that person felt about the game, if you can't make a decision about whether or not it sounds like something you'd want to play from the information given then either they've failed in giving you enough info or maybe you're just an idiot. Either way that's what you should be bitching about.

It's not whether or not he likes the game, it's why he does or does not like the game. If there were factual errors or he was just pulling stuff out of his ass, then sure, complain about that too. But if he says it's really just more of the same and, well, it is, why is he at fault for wanting more just because some fans accept expansion packs as full releases? (Not singling out Disgaea here, I'm talking about in general.)

p.s. You do realize you brought up reviews from OPM of all places, right?

[StriderKyo]

While I'm sure that was exactly the feel the guys that made [eM] were aiming for and that they're all huge D&D fans it's still retarded.

They're clearly trying to evoke Final Fantasy, which is a series built on conventions founded in a first game that was a derivative of Dragon Quest, to which Wizardry & Ultima were absolutely antecedents, and those were certainly both D&D derived. It's part of a design heritage that goes back to D&D, along with turn based battles, hit points, character classes, randomized attack damage, the term "role playing game" and other things we consider staples but which were introduced to the world of pre-computer gaming by D&D and passed on from there.

There are other, far superior ways to handle chance encounters.

If game developers wanted it to be random like that they could at the very least simply make the amount and type of "trigger" creatures (as in: the visible overworld creatures that represent a pack of enemies) random as opposed to just having ether shit things out. Random battles in the spawn-out-of-nothingness sense are an old, outdated, lazy technique that needs to stop.

I don't see why showing blob guys on screen a la Grandia is inherently superior to invisible random encounters. The next guy can just come along and call that inferior compared to just having the battle take place on the map against fully represented enemies. It's a stylistic choice, and I don't see why people are saying it's intrinsically flawed any more than turn based battles, wounds that don't leave you bleeding to death, experience systems that let you learn almighty magic spells by hitting a goblin with a stick, or any other arbitrary jrpg design element.

Some things just make up the guts of what we recognize as a classic jrpg, and they're no more right or wrong than the fact that chess is archaic and real knights could just charge straight at the dumb king right in front of them.

[Rumpy]

I don't see why showing blob guys on screen a la Grandia is inherently superior to invisible random encounters. The next guy can just come along and call that inferior compared to just having the battle take place on the map against fully represented enemies. It's a stylistic choice, and I don't see why people are saying it's intrinsically flawed any more than turn based battles, wounds that don't leave you bleeding to death, experience systems that let you learn almighty magic spells by hitting a goblin with a stick, or any other arbitrary jrpg design element.

Some things just make up the guts of what we recognize as a classic jrpg, and they're no more right or wrong than the fact that chess is archaic and real knights could just charge straight at the dumb king right in front of them.

It's more about being able to avoid a battle if you want. Instead of being suddenly jumped in the middle of an open field, being forced to fight or run away. It's a waste of time. We're to the point where having invisible enemies is archaic, there's no point. Wait for the fight to load, take the time to fight or run away and wait for the map screen to load again (not like that in every rpg, but it's a good standard for this argument). If you want to fight everything you come across, seeing the enemies just makes that easier. It's win win for everyone in that case.

It's not so much about realism or what a fictional character would do in the situation, but making better design decisions that will do nothing but improve the game.

[Diff-chan]

They're clearly trying to evoke Final Fantasy, which is a series built on conventions founded in a first game that was a derivative of Dragon Quest, to which Wizardry & Ultima were absolutely antecedents, and those were certainly both D&D derived. It's part of a design heritage that goes back to D&D, along with turn based battles, hit points, character classes, randomized attack damage, the term "role playing game" and other things we consider staples but which were introduced to the world of pre-computer gaming by D&D and passed on from there.

Well Final Fantasy has moved on. Square ditched the random battles in Chrono Cross, in 2000.

As for the Disgaea comments, Im willing to give Disgaea 2 a pass because it is a sequel and people often do want more of the same. Enchanted Arms is a brand new game in a brand new franchise on a brand new platform.

It's a stylistic choice

Well the problem comes when you are told a goal, and you start to go to it, and have a chance at coming up with a monster every step. If you have to reach a doorway and want to see the story element but have to fight 10 monsters coming out of nowhere, it is annoying. It also dampens the desire to explore, because oftentimes you just don't want to fight so much and you don't know what will happen. AND, if the battle system is rubbish in the first place it just makes it doubly bad.

[Saint of Killers]

Its alarming that most sports games, like Madden, release almost the EXACT same shit EVERY YEAR and I don't see those games getting 5's because they are similar to other sports games.

It's alarming that the same people who bitch and moan about EA releasing Madden every year rush out to drop $50 on Generic JRPG #8351 without a second thought.

They're clearly trying to evoke Final Fantasy, which is a series built on conventions founded in a first game that was a derivative of Dragon Quest, to which Wizardry & Ultima were absolutely antecedents, and those were certainly both D&D derived. It's part of a design heritage that goes back to D&D, along with turn based battles, hit points, character classes, randomized attack damage, the term "role playing game" and other things we consider staples but which were introduced to the world of pre-computer gaming by D&D and passed on from there.

Bioware made games based directly on D&D rules that didn't have shitty ass random battles popping up from nowhere every five steps (Baldur's Gate 1&2 had a few but it was kept to a bare minimum). The standard D&D campaign is not hundreds and hundreds of random battles broken up by the occasional boss. Random battles are used occasionally (and by some GMs not at all) but almost all the encounters in a good campaign are planned. You don't fucking roll for an enouncter every time your character takes a step.

I seriously can't believe you're defending random battles.

[Finch]

As an example, allow me to take a quote from someone on this board that's a fan of Disgaea 2 and enjoyed playing it:Hm. Even though he liked playing it, it sounds to me like he echoed exactly what you said OPM brought up. If fans and reviewers are in agreeance on what the game does right and wrong but they - as people are wont to do - have differing opinions on how they enjoy those particular things, can you really fault them? The point of reviews is to tell you how that person felt about the game, if you can't make a decision about whether or not it sounds like something you'd want to play from the information given then either they've failed in giving you enough info or maybe you're just an idiot. Either way that's what you should be bitching about.

If someone approaches something with a negative attitude, it's going to give a completely different message than someone with a positive attitude. Madden does everything the same but sometimes better as the previous Madden and Disgaea 2 does everything the same but sometimes better than Disgaea. What seems like the better game in OPM? There aren't a lot of games like Disgaea, no matter what you'd like to think, and the first game was a lot of fun.
You can't fault the reviewer, but they could use the multiple reviewer system, or maybe use someone who's looking forward to the game.
I wasn't really looking forward to Disgaea 2, but i bought it anyway and i'm enjoying it a lot. A few people who said, "It's more of the same, it sucks" would've probably kept me from buying it.

Random battles don't matter to me either way. As long as load times aren't stupid (Skies of Arcadia) and they're not ridiculously common (Tales of Destiny), they're okay. I don't like the blob in the overworld thing any better. You know they're going to get you eventually. If you can manage to avoid them all, you're going to have to go back to them anyway. Random battles give you enough resistance so the reward of getting somewhere new is a reward instead of just getting to point b.

It's alarming when people bitch and moan about rpg's all being the same when they go out and buy the same got dang hot dogs and tato chips at the grocery store every week.