Take-Two 'Temporarily Suspends' Manhunt 2

[Salsashark]

Bullshit. There's no M rated game that comes even close to the gratuitous violence of R rated movies like Hostel or Pulp Fiction or Commando for example.

Well, that's a whole new can of worms, but the MPAA has stupid, seemingly-arbitrary rules about the screen time gore gets and how many deaths and explosions there are, etc. which the ESRB completely ignores. So yeah, you can bet an M rated game that is essentially non-stop gory killing would get an NC-17.

I think Hostel is a shitty movie personally, and pretty much the equivalent of Manhunt in film. But even so, that and Pulp Fiction both use the violence to punctuate their narratives, whereas it's the other way around in most games.

[Frogacuda]

I agree. I don't think censorship is the answer, but on a deeper level I'm bothered that entertainment is going in that direction at all.

Gamespot said in their preview that they feel the subject matter justifies the violence. In any event there are a lot of exploitive violent films out there that don't take a fraction of this kind of heat.

No cartoon has ever gotten an NC-17 for violence. Remember that. It's not that graphic, it's a fucking cartoon.

[Salsashark]

No it isn't. Yes, an NC-17 rating signifies the financial kiss of death for a film, but it does not disallow it from even being screened. Theatres can still show the film.

They CAN, but almost none will. That is why you don't see NC-17 movies at your local AMC theater and why studios will force movies to be re-cut to an R (and are released on dvd as "unrated" cuts). It's pretty much the exact same situation.

Not trying to be directly argumentative, but can you name one?

Because personally, I don't think I'd find a game like Manhunt to be as gratuitous as a movie like Hostel.

Again, your (and most gamers') definition of gratuitous is different than the norm, I think. You may say "some guy got his ankles slit, starts to walk, and falls on the floor in Hostel. That kind of graphic detail isn't in a game." First of all, it probably is. But more importantly, it's used as a shocking device in the movie and only one time. Video games are repetitious, interactive, and usually
completely devoid of any morals whatsoever. Probably any one of your run-of-the-mill, standard demonic first person shooters would be an NC-17 if they were literally translated to live action film.

[Andy]

They CAN, but almost none will. That is why you don't see NC-17 movies at your local AMC theater and why studios will force movies to be re-cut to an R (and are released on dvd as "unrated" cuts). It's pretty much the exact same situation.

Regardless of whether the risk is worth it to the business funding the art, there is a big difference between can and cannot.

Again, your (and most gamers') definition of gratuitous is different than the norm, I think. You may say "some guy got his ankles slit, starts to walk, and falls on the floor in Hostel. That kind of graphic detail isn't in a game." First of all, it probably is. But more importantly, it's used as a shocking device in the movie and only one time. Video games are repetitious, interactive, and usually
completely devoid of any morals whatsoever. Probably any one of your run-of-the-mill, standard demonic first person shooters would be an NC-17 if they were literally translated to live action film.

So wouldn't your entire explanation lend credence to the idea that the Hostel scene is more "impactful" or "gratuitous" or "shocking?"

I mean, first of all, no, there isn't the kind of detail you just described from a Hostel scene in a game. Any game. But if there were, wouldn't your admission of them being repetitious acts, completely devoid of moral values, make them less impactful or gratuitous or shocking than that Hostel scene?

[Frogacuda]

They CAN, but almost none will. That is why you don't see NC-17 movies at your local AMC theater and why studios will force movies to be re-cut to an R (and are released on dvd as "unrated" cuts). It's pretty much the exact same situation.

Except NC-17 movies are a LOT more common than AO games, AND I can walk into a store and buy an unrated DVD and I can't do that for an AO game (even if one could come out).

[Salsashark]

Regardless of whether the risk is worth it to the business funding the art, there is a big difference between can and cannot.

Haha. But it essentially is "cannot" because theaters will refuse to show an NC-17 movie (outside of the dying arthouse places, which may or may not) the same way Nintendo or Sony refuses to let the games appear. Rockstar could release the game themselves on their website, but that would be stupid for them and they'd lose tons of money. In the same way, an NC-17 Diehard 4 COULD just be distributed at independent theaters, but there's no money in that.

So wouldn't your entire explanation lend credence to the idea that the Hostel scene is more "impactful" or "gratuitous" or "shocking?"

I mean, first of all, no, there isn't the kind of detail you just described from a Hostel scene in a game. Any game. But if there were, wouldn't your admission of them being repetitious acts, completely devoid of moral values, make them less impactful or gratuitous or shocking than that Hostel scene?

That's just it though. That kind of violence is supposed to have an effect. A lot of people would argue that Hostel is violence porn, and I'm not going to get into that. But the fact is in Hostel a murder is supposed to be shocking and scary. In Manhunt a murder is supposed to be visceral and fun. And you're right, it loses its impact and turns into a mindless, numbing act. Which is much more offensive to most people, as it should be.

It's not as much about what you're seeing as it is what the implications of the product are. The MPAA can and has refused movies an R rating just for "nihilism."

Again, I don't think anyone, right or wrong, should be imposing their moral standards on consumers. I also don't think video games make people kill other people or do bad things. It's more than I'm concerned about what's happening to our culture when stuff like this is so popular, in the same way I'm "concerned" about monster truck driving and professional wrestling. Mostly though I'm just bored tonight.

[Salsashark]

Except NC-17 movies are a LOT more common than AO games, AND I can walk into a store and buy an unrated DVD and I can't do that for an AO game (even if one could come out).

This is true, and a good point. But again, Rockstar COULD release the game independently. It's just being deprived of mainstream distribution, in a way similar to NC-17 movies. You're right though. You can buy "unrated" dvds even at Walmart as far as I know.

[icarusfall]

I <3 nihilism and violence.

If someone else <3's nihilism and violence...

We should be able to <3 nihilism and violence together.

Especially if I want to pay for it.

Isn't that <3'ing capitalism?

[Frogacuda]

This is true, and a good point. But again, Rockstar COULD release the game independently. It's just being deprived of mainstream distribution, in a way similar to NC-17 movies.

Nope, wrong-o. Sony and Nintendo have a policy of not licensing any AO games. They can't release it at all as AO, unless they port it to PC.

[bbobb]

Haha. But it essentially is "cannot" because theaters will refuse to show an NC-17 movie (outside of the dying arthouse places, which may or may not) the same way Nintendo or Sony refuses to let the games appear. Rockstar could release the game themselves on their website, but that would be stupid for them and they'd lose tons of money. In the same way, an NC-17 Diehard 4 COULD just be distributed at independent theaters, but there's no money in that.

No that is not essentially "cannot". It would be a cannot if all movie projectors and DVD players/TV's would not be able to play the movie because it is NC-17. That is the situation we're in here. It's a big fucking difference.

Rockstar cannot release the game on their website, because Nintendo or Sony will not let them... I don't understand how you can't see the difference. We're talking about outright censorship.