Election Thread 2016

[Yoshi]

I'd say most people in the US would think that way too. I'm used to dealing with much, much larger companies though, so my point of reference is a lot different than most people's.

[Frogacuda]

You'd definitely have to change the structure, because I believe people like icarus pay individual income tax for their small business.

People like me too... At a much higher rate than I would if I made the same while working a salary job. There's a lot of aspects of our tax code that don't really make sense and need rethinking.

I understand the desire. I just don't like these slippery slopes. It's awfully hard to lose a public sector job once you have it, so what may seem like a fair and good short term idea may lead to longer term issues, like the ridiculous way the post office is crippled by Congress.

I think what the federal government did during the Clinton presidency is a pretty good model. They managed to downsize government jobs at a time when demand for workers was high.

I misunderstood what you meant here. How do the CEOs get around the board and investors to begin with? For stock I own, I know I get a vote on supporting the CEO raises. Of course, I don't see firsthand what is done with that vote.

It's a non-binding vote, more or less a symbolic gesture. CEOs are effectively allowed to set their own pay, and since many of them are paid primarily in shares, they often control the board as well.

[MarkRyan]

You dummy, big business can fuck you to get what it wants as easily as the government.

Businesses + government = fucked over. Businesses by themselves, I'm not worried about.

No, banks are not blameless - they caused it. And they are also less regulated than they used to be by a large margin. They caused the crash through an unregulated sector of their business.

I don't have to explain to you the factors that contributed to 2008, so I don't get how you can pretend that government interference had nothing to do with it. Rules aren't the only way government meddles. It tries to steer behavior with incentives. And it often has consequences. See: Plummeting home prices. See: Balooning national student debt. See: People losing health care when they lose their jobs.

Like a lot of libertarians I've talked to, you have the naivete and faith in the private sector that comes from growing up in a system in which the government attempts to regulate the worst excesses of private industry and tries to keep those excesses from affecting the average American. You should study history more.

I've admitted that a free market can fail. I just still prefer it to the alternative. You've not admitted any failings of regulations. I'm not sure how I'm naive here.

Frankly, I'm not that concerned with regulations on massive corporations because 1) I'm not one and 2) I don't pity them. I want them to have the same economic freedom as small businesses and myself, I think it's ultimately for the better, but I hate that corporations dictate political discussion. There's a lot of government that stifles economics at much lower levels and I'd rather political efforts started there versus at the top. This is the problem with the Reublican party. Their rhetoric is "free market" but they work up half the country of everymans to fight for a bunch of dudes that don't need fighting for.

[Drewbacca]

I'd say most people in the US would think that way too. I'm used to dealing with much, much larger companies though, so my point of reference is a lot different than most people's.

I strongly feel the 20 mil and 1500 employee people should be reclassified away from the examples we've discussed. Their problems are not (entirely) the same and different enough to categorize differently, IMO.

[Frogacuda]

Businesses + government = fucked over. Businesses by themselves, I'm not worried about.

But you really, really should be. Business can crash the economy, put you out of a job (especially working in a fragile industry like media), hold you hostage for as much money as they want for basic necessities... Unchecked, businesses are capable of doing a lot of harm.

I don't have to explain to you the factors that contributed to 2008, so I don't get how you can pretend that government interference had nothing to do with it.

Lack of government interference, and in particular the trading of derivatives, had a lot more to do with it... The banks were leveraged so heavy in investments that weren't just risky but outright fraudulent that a 5% fluctuation was enough to bankrupt them. Even if the government caused that 5% fluctuation (which I would purport that they didn't), it would have been a non-issue if they weren't gambling everyone's money on a crooked shell game.

[MarkRyan]

FYI, most libertarians agree that in a free market, fraud is not permitted. I'm also a strong believer in disclosure and free information.

[Frogacuda]

The problem is not just fraud, though. It's gambling. There is a distinction between investment and pure rent-seeking in the forms of high-risk, short-term "investments." And when you have a system where individual wealth is protected from these risks, you effectively allow people to gamble with other people's money, and then reap the rewards if it pays off. There's really no benefit for the country economically to allow this kind of thing.

The thing that makes capitalism work is competition, but competition can only thrive in a well-regulated free market. Finding that middle ground is key.

[Bojack]

You're aware of the telco industry's history right? There used to be a lot of companies. Then they merged and became one giant company. Then the government broke them up. Then they reformed and are now 2 giant companies. That's what companies do. It's not because of regulations - it's their natural state.

It's too bad we'll likely never see a regulation that imposes limits on mergers and acquisitions. A simple rule of "Once you exceed certain market cap your company can no longer own a controlling interest in another company". Possibly with even stricter standards for companies trying to buy out competitors too. So many problems arise from companies playing too much merger style bullshit.

[Doc Holliday]

Is there really no mention in this thread of Clint Eastwood?

[Finch]

I have an invisible mute oboma right here.
Oboma, what do you think of TNL?

TNL Can Go Fuck Itself


invisible oboma with his potty mouth...