The Obama Presidency

[Yoshi]

Or how about you pay him a reasonable salary, give him a pension, and the healthcare he will need for the rest of his life after he ruins his body to make you richer?
And if there's anything left over, put that towards your arena upkeep/remodeling and get that burden off of the tax payers.
And if there's still anything left over, put that towards paying your other, less notable employees a decent living wage so that the state doesn't have to subsidize their healthcare and welfare.

Good owners don't ask for tax dollars for their stadiums, so your middle line is a non-issue if we're talking a free market.

And, no, if I'm running a business, I'm not subsidizing my lesser skilled employees at the expense of those that drive the revenue. That's terrible business.

[Yoshi]

I am very curious, how is someone not paying their taxes selling their vote?

Quite literally. They are likely to vote for whichever candidate will send them the biggest check for not working.

As for the other note, it is not in the best interest of the people for the country to go bankrupt, nor is it in the best interest of the union for it's company's it runs under to, well, go under. We will likely see that which is almost inevitable, lowered efficiency for higher equality. I would wager that carries a higher utility, but then we would be getting all up into an Economics theory discussion which might be poorly placed here.

I don't think the populace is smart enough to realize this in time and will still have their hands out after the "closed" sign is hung.

[Fe 26]

Not market share, market value. If 200,000,000 people can do your job, you're not going to make much money.

the problem with this isn't economical, it is social and mental. People need to be paid enough that they can be reasonably happy aka stable. There is a certain level of unhappiness where people's ability to make intelligent decisions breaks down. They start doing dumb shit and can go on a downward spiral that impacts more people than just them. YOU deal with this shit when crimes happen.

Secondly, people need a certain amount of funds for self improvement. Say a factory worker wants to become a computer programmer. He would need to have enough money to buy a computer. Then he'll probably buy books on programming (I know this can be done with websites, but a noob wouldn't). Or say a person wants to open their own auto mechanic shop. They would need money for vocational training for whatever skills they lack. They would also probably need some expensive equipment to start doing jobs with so he will have a track record when they go to ask for a loan. He might also have to pay someone to help him write up a business plan if the bank wants to see one before approving a loan. Or talk to a lawyer about the legal requirements (and he'll have a high hourly wage for this work)

People that are already successful take for granted how hard it can be to switch gears from one position to the next. Pulling yourself up by the bootstraps isn't a swift motion. Its like trying to shift a manual transmission on a big massive bulldozer from the 1920s. Its stiff, hard and fights you.

I find, for better or worse, conservatives tend to think of people in terms of archetypes. They have trouble thinking temporally and their perspective is less fluid. (I say this as someone that is pretty conservative on many issues).

People like Yoshi worry me. For the most part, he hates people. And he doesn't believe in the social mobility of the US. He's stated several times that he doesn't want to subsidize the mobility of others. That it isn't his job to pay for a parent to go back to school. That the parent made the choice to have the kid. That the parent made the choice to dick off in middle school or high school. Functionally, he wants stagnation. He wants a US where you only get so many chances. You only get so much mobility. You only get so many tries. After that, you're done. You get to live out the next 60 years of your life as whatever failure you've made for yourself.

I really can't agree with that perspective. I think people should get as many chances to improve themselves as they want. Whats the worst that can happen? Some money is wasted on a person becoming better? Vs what? What else was the money going to be spent on? Is that thing or stuff more important than people? What do we get if they succeed? Better people. Better Americans. More skilled labor. A smarter population.

[Diff-chan]

Good owners don't ask for tax dollars for their stadiums, so your middle line is a non-issue if we're talking a free market.

Every owner asks for (and gets) tax dollars.

And, no, if I'm running a business, I'm not subsidizing my lesser skilled employees at the expense of those that drive the revenue. That's terrible business.

They all drive the revenue, to some extent. Or else you woudn't be paying them at all. And paying people more means you can find higher quality employees.

Sometimes I wonder if Wal-Mart has done the math on that or pay what they pay and treat people how they treat people because of ideology. Probably both.

[bbobb]

Here's the problem though. You don't seem to get that the lesser skilled do drive the revenue. Without them making the product you wouldn't have anything to sell. On top of that they are also your customer base. If you don't pay the customer base enough to purchase things you're never going to get much revenue

[bbobb]

Quite literally. They are likely to vote for whichever candidate will send them the biggest check for not working.

And this is where you don't seem to grasp reality. Most people who don't pay taxes are working and working hard. They just don't earn enough money to owe taxes. My brother is a great example. He works damned hard makes a fair but not great wage, does not get welfare or anything like that but he pays nothing in taxes. Why? Because he just barely makes enough to support his family of two kids, and with the deductions he ends up owing nothing. Those are the people who don't pay taxes

[Some Stupid Japanese Name]

I'm not talking about a pretend free market. I'm talking about reality. A smart owner will take whatever tax break he can get. That's just good business, yes?
Keeping your lesser skilled employees healthy and happy is incredibly smart business. Do you understand how much money places like Walmart waste yearly on training and shit due to high turnover rates, employee theft, and a million (well, maybe not a million, but a lot) other things that can be attributed to treating your employees like they don't matter?
As a business owner, you are the one being subsidized at the expense of those that drive the revenue, let's not pretend it's otherwise, especially in the sporting world.

[Diff-chan]

Quite literally. They are likely to vote for whichever candidate will send them the biggest check for not working.

It's not 1976 anymore dude. Welfare in this country is not really that great, and often comes with strings attached, like, umm, being employed. A lot of people in the "safety net" are working poor, not "young bucks" and "welfare queens".

[Fe 26]

And this is where you don't seem to grasp reality. Most people who don't pay taxes are working and working hard. They just don't earn enough money to owe taxes. My brother is a great example. He works damned hard makes a fair but not great wage, does not get welfare or anything like that but he pays nothing in taxes. Why? Because he just barely makes enough to support his family of two kids, and with the deductions he ends up owing nothing. Those are the people who don't pay taxes

that isn't all of them.

[bbobb]

that isn't all of them.

No it isn't. But it is a large number of them. This concept of the people who don't pay taxes just being leechers is extremely incorrect