The Obama Presidency

[Drewbacca]

Yeah cheeky's getting hung up on the meds. But either way (since he br - it would lower the cost of the machinery and meds. I don't think he understands the point - more people pulling in more people getting better deals. The NPO's could pull together for a consortium to negotiate on behalf of everyone involved. Decent pay, government aid as a charity (and tax breaks) and complete knowledge about who is doing what (and the ability to pursue them to keep them honest).

What's the problem?

not always

Are you really trying to say that japan got the cost of its MRIs down to 80 bucks because meds are cheaper? Cheap meds reduced cost of MRIs by almost 2k ? More people had more money to spend, so they just thought they would go get some MRIs? You think MRIs would drop in price in the US if more people got them?

You two really think this, don't you?

You don't understand. Nobody is talking strictly about medicine. The conversation is about companies formalizing and leveraging their mass volume to negotiate better prices based on consumer demands. That's why goods are so cheap in America to begin with. Medicine is only one tentpole issue of healthcare - everyone knows that. You brought up the other facets of healthcare (the service) so we responded in kind to you. Shut up.

[Fe 26]

Yeah he's getting hung up on the meds. But either way - it would lower the cost of the machinery and meds.

what is it?

more people pulling in more people getting better deals. The NPO's could pull together for a consortium to negotiate on behalf of everyone involved.

The medical system wouldn't budge as it is now. You're making the assumption that healthcare providers are well run businesses. They aren't. Thats part of the problem.

Decent pay

who decides this? What is Decent pay for health related services?


You can't just apply assembly line logic to the health care industry. Medical professionals aren't going to want to zip through a bunch of patients at a low per person fee when they can see just a couple people at a larger fee and make the same money.

[Drewbacca]

The answer to quote 1 above is in the post directly above it already. Read it. Leveraging.

I explained the difference in operation. The healthcare providers need an overhaul - and it's already been explained how (my idea was NPO's forming together transparently for the collective good and negotiating together around the world for supplies, and maybe even care in some cases) The mandate wouldn't be to make money or to the pharmaceuticals but to the patients. That's a paradigm shift that carries a lot of weight.

For #3: Pay is always driven by market demand. You told me your dad works for peanuts - the doctors who have more patients and better practices will get paid more of the collective pie. Now you're arguing doctors are in it solely for the money, whereas right HERE:

We've been over this before but not everyone that gives care is a greedy old dick bag. Mississippi wouldn't even have doctors in non major cities if everyone was in it for the money. You'd have to drive to Memphis, Tupelo, and Jackson for anything. 67% of my Dad's patients are Medicare and Medicaid patients. If he was in it for the money, he'd left the state a long time ago.

you were arguing the opposite.

I spun you right round. Make your stand in either camp and the outcome is the same - better and more organized, cheaper care. And it still helps the economy. I would also argue that Gooch's system would be great in accordance with this new physical structure. Because it would enable people to offset costs even further (more, better care! Docs being ballers, etc.)

[dave is ok]

This is a pretty easy concept to grasp and it is not surprising in the least that Ironplant cannot grasp it.

[icarusfall]

Professors gonna prof.

[Drewbacca]

Maybe he's trollin'?

I don't think so.

I think he's being contrary to anything I'm saying because he doesn't like the fact that my idea is awesome and I don't even have a doctor for a father! (a banker at that) So when I say people will get paid because the collective pie is much more streamlined he says DOCTORS DON'T CARE ABOUT THE MONEY. Then when I say costs will go down so they can give more and BETTER care he says BUT DOCTORS CARE ABOUT THE MONEY! But either argument is already solved with the NPO idea. It would just take time to build up steam (again, not an EASY fix).

[Advocate]

THE PROFESSOR HAS SPOKEN AND DO NOT REFUTE HIS CLAIMS! HIS WORD IS LAW!

[Yoshi]

Maybe I'm just too big a dummy but maybe some turbo genius with Yoshi caliber intellect can explain to me why the provisions in Obamacare will be horrific for any one but the insurance industry profit recipients? How exactly will it raise costs at a faster rate than the insurance naturally inflates already? How will the government lacking a public or single payer option in said legislation stand between me and my doctor anymore than insurance companies already do? The government is claiming it will save the budget money. How are they lying since the government can't be correct at the same time as the Obamacare opponents. So how will Obamacare cost the country extra cash? The 1099 is a non issue since even Obama has amitted that it can be amended if needed but the right seems hell bent on complete and utter repeal.

Seems to me the only contention for the regular joe would be the willful non-insurance tax (and given the externalities of the uninsured fuck 'em if they don't like the tax) and a bunch of Fox news boogeymen. I'm honestly stunned that people would oppose this bill in such numbers and emotion. I'm also honestly puzzled as to where the anger is coming from. I could understand the anger if the Feds repealed the 2nd Amendment or some similar shit but a large scale attempt to improve our health care industry is met with insane resistance so if some one could clue me in to how this bill is supposed to be super shitty (using facts and figures and not (R) rhetoric I would be much appreciative.

I find this post fascinating. Where are the facts are figures sans rhetoric that make you think it is positive in any way? The burden of proof should be on the group trying to fuck everything up. Have they met that? The honest truth is that you think you're going to get something for nothing, just like every other proponent of this, so of course it looks great.

Also, please define "regular joe" and be specific.

[Fe 26]

This is a pretty easy concept to grasp and it is not surprising in the least that Ironplant cannot grasp it.

See, this is part of the problem. This shit isn't easy. You are trying to apply freshmen level business concepts to a very complex industry. And it is pretty obvious you don't have a good understanding of either.

So when I say people will get paid because the collective pie is much more streamlined he says DOCTORS DON'T CARE ABOUT THE MONEY. Then when I say costs will go down so they can give more and BETTER care he says BUT DOCTORS CARE ABOUT THE MONEY! But either argument is already solved with the NPO idea. It would just take time to build up steam (again, not an EASY fix).

And you're doing it too, but not to the same degree as Dave. "Oh, but IP is double talking."

There is a difference between a family practice doctor and the guy who gets paid 1k every time he sets up a machine at a hospital.

Do you really not see that difference? Do you really think everyone that provides medical care is all the same? The family practice doctor is just like the emergency room doctor who is just like the plastic surgeon who is just like the guy who removes prostate cancer who is also just like the guy who does heart surgeries? All the same?

So when you accuse everyone in the medical industry of being greedy, and I site family practice doctors as people who are not, you think I'm double talking when I point out that a hospital probably won't lower cost on MRIs just because more people want them. The guy who does the MRIs is just like the guy who looks you over for a head cold. That is your line of thinking? They're all doctors. It is all the same. One homogeneous glob of medical professionals?

Then when I say costs will go down so they can give more and BETTER care he says

This sentence can't stand on its own. More patients, paying less does not automatically translate into better care. It is asinine for you to imply this for any service based job. It is like saying that McDonalds sales better food than a 5 star expensive restaurant because they streamlined the food making process, buy food in bulk, and ultimately make more money because they sell in large volume.

[dave is ok]

See, this is part of the problem. This shit isn't easy. You are trying to apply freshmen level business concepts to a very complex industry. And it is pretty obvious you don't have a good understanding of either.

Oh right, I'm sorry my dad isn't a doctor. I guess the evidence of every other country with a single payer system having cheaper drugs, medical equipment, less overhead and as a result - less expensive care, isn't enough. Not to mention that this used to be the case in many parts of America as well. Blue Cross Blue Shield was the only insurance provider in my state a couple of decades ago and shit worked. The prices were reasonable. Insurance was cheap.

This sentence can't stand on its own. More patients, paying less does not automatically translate into better care. It is asinine for you to imply this for any service based job. It is like saying that McDonalds sales better food than a 5 star expensive restaurant because they streamlined the food making process, buy food in bulk, and ultimately make more money because they sell in large volume.

You're treating it as if every medical procedure is something only a specialist should handle. People in this country ignore checkups because the price of them is prohibitive. Not to mention simple one day things like hernias, ulcers, mole removals, etc. that people ignore for years and years because it's literally a thousand plus dollar bill to step inside the door at most places. Changing this mindset makes the country healthier and less likely to require serious medical care in the future.