Kickstarter's All-purpose Speculatory Thread of Dreams

[Joust Williams]

Kickstarter is where expectations go to die

[Shin Johnpv]

I'm sorry but this looks like the thesis from a bunch of kids at digipen, not a 5.5+ million dollar game from an experienced developer. The clash of art styles between the character and the environments also screams amateur hour and just looks terrible.

[Frogacuda]

I suspect targeting too many platforms is hurting them like it did with Mighty No. 9. Some of the shots I see look good, some not so much.

I didn't back Bloodstained and don't really care that much, but I'm still interested to see what they come up with.

[Diff-chan]

That's the problem with slapdash Kickstarter campaigns. People start commenting "I'll pledge if you support Ouya! You have my money with a port to Game.com" and well they want money.

Honestly from that video I think the Dracula X PSP remake looks better and that thing was pretty ugly.

[Frogacuda]

The animations and controls look right to me. The character and the textures too. It just looks low-poly and with simplified lighting. That could be for the sake of porting to low-end hardware. It looks a lot better than the PSP 'vania, though.

I've seen some other Kickstarters drop impractical platforms, and it ruffles feathers and they shouldn't have promised them, but it usually is the right call.

[Shin Johnpv]

I suspect targeting too many platforms is hurting them like it did with Mighty No. 9. Some of the shots I see look good, some not so much.

I didn't back Bloodstained and don't really care that much, but I'm still interested to see what they come up with.

Yeah I'm going to call BULLSHIT on this excuse. At least with regards to Bloodstained here. Their main platforms are PS4, XBox One, and PC, while using the Unreal engine. That's not really going to impact them all that much, and the now cancelled Wii U and Vita versions were being handled by a different team all together. So while maybe a money impact, it's not a time impact. It's also not going to impact design choices. Supporting PC, PS4, and XBO didn't make them go with cel shaded characters and a realistic environment.

The animations and controls look right to me. The character and the textures too. It just looks low-poly and with simplified lighting. That could be for the sake of porting to low-end hardware. It looks a lot better than the PSP 'vania, though.

I've seen some other Kickstarters drop impractical platforms, and it ruffles feathers and they shouldn't have promised them, but it usually is the right call.

Yeah I'm disagreeing with this too. The problems here go way beyond some low poly models and simplified lighting. There are bad design choices being made. Who ever thought having 2 different art styles for the character and the environment was an idiot. I suppose it could have worked but the implementation of the idea was done HORRIBLY here. It breaks the sense of this being a cohesive world.

The character is way too floaty, lacking a sense of weight, and moves too slow. It's kind of obvious that they're copying Alucard's movement from SoTN, which would be fine if this was a 2D game. Animation, timing, and things you can do in 2D don't always translate the same, or work as well in 3D. There's little effort to correct for that sort of thing here.

The textures are terribly low res in a LOT of places. Look at the first platform she jumps on in that video, did they spend more than 3 minutes on the damn texture there. There's pretty much no specular mapping going on anywhere it seems, let alone even basic bump or normal mapping. The sides of platforms facing us look like no one's bothered to UV them correctly with smearing stretched textures all over the place. Shadows are done in such a way that you can't even see shadows for her feet which would ground her on objects and give her some more weight instead of being a floating butterfly.

Everything just looks and feels like there is 0 attention to detail. It's why I say it looks like its coming from some one's thesis project not a major developer with over 5.5 million dollars to spend working on it.

Nothing about this says this is a game being made in UE4 coming out in 2018, with a multi-million dollar budget. I dropped 60 bucks on the kickstarter and am BEYOND disappointed in what I'm seeing, it's definitely going to be another Might Number 09.

[Frogacuda]

Yeah I'm going to call BULLSHIT on this excuse. At least with regards to Bloodstained here. Their main platforms are PS4, XBox One, and PC, while using the Unreal engine. That's not really going to impact them all that much, and the now cancelled Wii U and Vita versions were being handled by a different team all together. So while maybe a money impact, it's not a time impact. It's also not going to impact design choices.

I'm not really talking about time, I'm talking about the simple geometry and lack of normal maps/shaders, advanced lighting, etc which is what Unreal Engine does best. Or maybe those things (and lighting) are just not done yet.

Supporting PC, PS4, and XBO didn't make them go with cel shaded characters and a realistic environment.

I'm not bothered by this, but the decision to go with cel shaded characters was probably made for the sake of keeping the game readable, which is something Igarashi has always prioritized over aesthetics (recall the GBA games with the garish colored outlines around the characters). To his credit, he's done a good job here. It's very clear what's interactable and what's a platform, which is sometimes hard in 2.5D games.

Yeah I'm disagreeing with this too. The problems here go way beyond some low poly models and simplified lighting. There are bad design choices being made. Who ever thought having 2 different art styles for the character and the environment was an idiot.

But aren't most anime cartoons drawn with cel-painted characters and more detailed backgrounds? This seems like a really strange complaint to me. I'm not saying that there's nothing wrong with how it looks, but what you're describing is like almost every cel shaded thing that's ever existed.

The character is way too floaty, lacking a sense of weight, and moves too slow. It's kind of obvious that they're copying Alucard's movement from SoTN, which would be fine if this was a 2D game. Animation, timing, and things you can do in 2D don't always translate the same, or work as well in 3D.

You could say the same of Battle Fantasia, but I think the "3D game that moves like a 2D game" is kind of the point in both cases. It's one of the things I like about what they're doing. I want it to play like a 2D game.

The textures are terribly low res in a LOT of places. Look at the first platform she jumps on in that video, did they spend more than 3 minutes on the damn texture there. There's pretty much no specular mapping going on anywhere it seems, let alone even basic bump or normal mapping.

100% agree. This is what really looks jank to me, and it's why I'm speculating that porting to low-end hardware might be the issue. But it could be that inti is garbage at modern 3D and don't know how to do this right.

[Shin Johnpv]

I'm not really talking about time, I'm talking about the simple geometry and lack of normal maps/shaders, advanced lighting, etc which is what Unreal Engine does best. Or maybe those things (and lighting) are just not done yet.

No, just no. Again the two platforms that would need simpler geometry, and less in the way of normal maps/shaders were being done by another company. Also no one waits till the very last minute to implement that stuff. Yeah it gets refined along the way but no one waits till the last 12 months to implement lighting.

I'm not bothered by this, but the decision to go with cel shaded characters was probably made for the sake of keeping the game readable, which is something Igarashi has always prioritized over aesthetics (recall the GBA games with the garish colored outlines around the characters). To his credit, he's done a good job here. It's very clear what's interactable and what's a platform, which is sometimes hard in 2.5D games.

Plenty of games are readable while keeping the environment and the characters in it in the same art style. There was no need for it, stop defending bad design choices.

But aren't most anime cartoons drawn with cel-painted characters and more detailed backgrounds? This seems like a really strange complaint to me. I'm not saying that there's nothing wrong with how it looks, but what you're describing is like almost every cel shaded thing that's ever existed.

Come on man, get the fucking hell out of here with this. There's a difference between a character being simpler and the background being more detailed and having the character and environments being completely different styles.

You could say the same of Battle Fantasia, but I think the "3D game that moves like a 2D game" is kind of the point in both cases. It's one of the things I like about what they're doing. I want it to play like a 2D game.

I never played Battle Fantasia or know anything about it so I can't say but I think it creates poorly animated, floaty, and weightless characters that don't look good. You can play like a 2D game with out copying it's animation frame for frame, which is the problem here. Alucard doesn't feel poorly animated floaty or weightless because it works for the medium he was created in. It doesn't work in 3D and it just looks bad.

100% agree. This is what really looks jank to me, and it's why I'm speculating that porting to low-end hardware might be the issue. But it could be that inti is garbage at modern 3D and don't know how to do this right.

What low end hardware? They're making the game for PS4, Xbox One, and PC. Unless you think this is the best that the PS4 and Xbox One can do? In which case holy shit man. Again the Wii U and Vita versions were being handled by another team completely, who would handle lowering the asset quality, not Inti.

[Diff-chan]

I just have to throw this out there again, Ori and the Blind Forest. Easily one of the best looking games out there, and it's not like that game was made with Andromeda money either. This game looks pretty dumpy.

[Frogacuda]

Come on man, get the fucking hell out of here with this. There's a difference between a character being simpler and the background being more detailed and having the character and environments being completely different styles.

There's also a difference between "art style" and "Rendering style." Mario Odyssey's New Donk City is a great example of character and background being in different art styles and that clashing. If you're talking about something like this, I understand in theory but I'm not really seeing it in Bloodstained.

But if you're just talking about being rendered in a different way, literally 99% of the cartoons you have ever watched had flat cel painted characters and painterly backgrounds. Different artists, using different media in vastly different styles. And imitating that aesthetic is pretty much the point of cel-shading.

For example:

What low end hardware? They're making the game for PS4, Xbox One, and PC. Unless you think this is the best that the PS4 and Xbox One can do? In which case holy shit man. Again the Wii U and Vita versions were being handled by another team completely, who would handle lowering the asset quality, not Inti.

Just because another team is handling the port doesn't mean they don't have to consider porting concerns when making decisions on the lead platform. They still have to say "We need this to scale down," unless they have enough money to pay those other teams to basically remake the damn game.

I don't know that was the reason for the lack of maps on the textures, and I might be totally wrong, but you can't just dismiss it by saying "That's another team," as if they aren't sharing assets.