Calling all Christians!

[Captain Vegetable]

Quick question: Why?

Why is Jesus the only fellow who can "save" us from going to hell?

You know of anyone else who can save us?

Why did God have to kill Jesus off in order to let us into heaven?

Because blood is the price of sin. It has been since the begining of creation. Why did God set it up that way? Because He wanted us to see how serious disobeying Him was, that sin demanded the shedding of blood.

Our blood is no good, as the sinless must be sacrificed for the sinfull. Innocents must atone for the guilty, which is another device to show us how horrible sin is. That's why goats and sheep and cows were sacrificed at the Tabernacle alter. They were innocents who took on the sin of the guilty to clense them. The animals, however, never saved anyone. They were a temporary solution to a perpetual problem. Everytime you sinned, another sacrifice was needed. Also, it wasn't the animal sacrifice that cleansed the people, but the looking forward to the Savior, Jesus Christ, that saved. The animal was a symbol of this truth.

Jesus Christ is God. He sacrificed Himself at His own alter in order to demonstrate His love for us, because He wanted to spend eternity with us. He loves us. Because Jesus Christ is God He is eternal, and thus His sacrifice is eternal. Once for all. There is no need for any more blood shed. He fulfilled the requirement completely, perfectly, and eternally Himself.

That is why.

For that matter, who says I'm going to "hell" in the first place?

Certainly not me. That's between you and God, but rest assured, Jesus Christ's sacrifice is the only way in.

Now, don't get me wrong - I am Christian myself, and from personal experience I have no doubt that God exists. But, that's the sort of thing that always gets me when I see people trying to preach.

I'm not trying to preach. These people have questions to ask, statements to make, and arguemnts to support. I am simply holding up my end of the conversation.

If you want to call what I'm doing preaching, then please, by all means, apply it blankedly, as everyone else in here seems to be doing the exact same thing.

Growing up, I never heard any reason for it aside from "God said so so it must be true", which really wouldn't fly if you're someone who isn't familiar with all the religious buzzwords in the first place. Try thinking about it from a non-Christian point of view for a minute, and you'll realize how ridiculous it all sounds.

Oh I know how rediculous it sounds. Often I have been quoted saying that what I believe is foolishness. I've even said it in this very thread.

Have you even read the fucking Bible? Exodus 12:29

Yes I have. But if you care to do any research on the subject, you'll find that all of the cultures that God gave the order to destroy were practicing child sacrificing. He wanted them all killed so that this practice would die with them. If those children grew up, they'd have sacrificed their children as well.

I read my Bible, man. And though you might, you've no knowlege to compare it against, and so your opinions are malformed.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

You've fucking lost it, man. You can keep that god.


Wow. I thought you might actually find a way to prove SoK wrong, and was looking forward to it, but you just went insane.

Yeah well...I'm getting impatient. That line was straight from me, and not from God. I'm just irritable is all. Sorry.

I'll try to get back any shred of credibility I can here. Please, that was a statement I made to provoke a reaction because I was getting a bit angry. I apologise. God never acted with such wreckless selfishness and I've done Him, and all of you, a great disservice by loosing my cool and going off the deep end.

I apologise.

See? This is pretty messed up. There are many examples of "messed up" behavior. Plagues, purging, execution of smart-mouth kids(how many people on this board would be alive if that sort of judgement were passed universally?), all sorts of messed up behavior. This is not a good god.

Larry of many things could be justified in keeping his bread from Fred the starving, but its a messed up thing to do.

There were plagues, and there were purgings, but every time that happened the people it was going to happen to had fair warning. God warned Egypt nearly 15 times! 15! He told them exactly what was going to happen before it happened, and He told them that He would relent if they would just do as He asked.

Why is it that when your parents tell you you're going to get slapped if you eat a cookie from the jar before dinner, and you do it, and they slap you, it's their fault?! It's your fault! You knew the outcome, and yet you persisted in behavior that yeilded those consequences!

EDIT: There is no historical acount to validate your claim that the chronically disobediant children were stoned. The parents of the children had the right to stone their children legally, just as God does, however, as there is no historical account of this law ever being brought to bear, I can tell you that mercy is what won the day. Parents do not simply stone their children because they misbehave, and neither does God. He always provided a way out. Always. Jesus Christ, God's own Self and Son, is the way out.

[Mzo]

Yeah well...I'm getting impatient. That line was straight from me, and not from God. I'm just irritable is all. Sorry.

I'll try to get back any shred of credibility I can here. Please, that was a statement I made to provoke a reaction because I was getting a bit angry. I apologise.

Hell, I do that all the time; I completely understand. It was the best post I read all night, don't apologize.

[Saint of Killers]

Yes I have. But if you care to do any research on the subject, you'll find that all of the cultures that God gave the order to destroy were practicing child sacrificing. He wanted them all killed so that this practice would die with them. If those children grew up, they'd have sacrificed their children as well.

Bull. Shit. He only killed the first borns, which means there were plenty of second/third/whatever borns to carry on the practice. The only goal as it was presented was to get the Pharoah to release the Hebrews. Your rationalization means jack shit, 'cause it wasn't in the Bible.

[Matt]

You know of anyone else who can save us?

Nope, but if you're somebody who didn't know they needed to be saved in the first place, it's be hard to understand what the whole deal was about.

Because blood is the price of sin. It has been since the begining of creation. Why did God set it up that way? Because He wanted us to see how serious disobeying Him was, that sin demanded the shedding of blood.

etc..

I know! That's the story we all hear. But, if I hadn't been brought up with the concept, the whole "killing animals makes up for bad stuff we've done" idea wouldn't come naturally.

I'm not trying to preach. These people have questions to ask, statements to make, and arguemnts to support. I am simply holding up my end of the conversation.

Yes, i'm sure - I was thinking mostly of the dude in Sidez' post earlier on.

Sadly, it seems that more Christians these days focus on the technical details of the religion and ignore the whole spirituality of the thing, which is in fact very deep and far more important than the manic "you need to save yourself!" aspect.

[rezo]

It's your fault! You knew the outcome, and yet you persisted in behavior that yeilded those consequences!

The first sons of the egyptians were warned? I thought Moses was making his pleas to the pharoah.Never mind that killing kids for insulting someone and other circumstances is messed up regardless of whether or not you're going to let them know that you'll kill them if they persist.

[Captain Vegetable]

Bull. Shit. He only killed the first borns, which means there were plenty of second/third/whatever borns to carry on the practice. The only goal as it was presented was to get the Pharoah to release the Hebrews. Your rationalization means jack shit, 'cause it wasn't in the Bible.

Yes, it is in the Bible, but I was thinking of a different account. God often sends the Hebrews out to decimate entire nations "dashing their babies upon the rocks." I thought you were driving at this, but it would seem as though I assumed incorrectly.

Pharoah knew what was going to happen. Moses warned that the first born male of every family was going to die if they didn't let the Jews go.

Again, why is it that when you're caught with your hand in the cookie jar, after ample warning and specific explanations concerning the nature of the punishment, it's your parent's fault? It isn't. Pharoah is the reason the children died, not God. Just as it's the child's fault he got slapped for going in the cookie jar.

[Matt]

There were plagues, and there were purgings, but every time that happened the people it was going to happen to had fair warning. God warned Egypt nearly 15 times! 15! He told them exactly what was going to happen before it happened, and He told them that He would relent if they would just do as He asked.

Why is it that when your parents tell you you're going to get slapped if you eat a cookie from the jar before dinner, and you do it, and they slap you, it's their fault?! It's your fault! You knew the outcome, and yet you persisted in behavior that yeilded those consequences!

Ouch! I'd be upset if I were one of those firstborn kids who was offed just 'cause the king didn't agree with some guy I'd never heard of. I don't think it would have been my fault .

Mind you, since I still believe that God's a nice fellow generally, one hopes that they had something good awaiting them in the afterlife.

[rezo]

Why are the first borns being punished when all of them aren't the ones with the hand in the jar? Pharoah did not kill the children. God presented the bargain and carried out the punishment. Pharoah was fine with it apparently, or he didn't believe it. I don't remember. Either way, a messed up pharoah being fine with someone else killing thousands of people doesn't mean that said pharoah is responsible.

[Captain Vegetable]

Yes, i'm sure - I was thinking mostly of the dude in Sidez' post earlier on.

Yeah, I wasn't to keen on that either. Some Christians can be jerks. Seems to me we're either keeping totally quiet, or blowing up abortion clinics. I wish there was a happy medium.

Sadly, it seems that more Christians these days focus on the technical details of the religion and ignore the whole spirituality of the thing, which is in fact very deep and far more important than the manic "you need to save yourself!" aspect.

Salvation is the single most important issue in anyone's life. And about spirituality...you clearly haven't read my previous posts in this thread. I cherish my spirituality. My time with God in His presence is treasure to me. It concerns me deeply that I do His work. This is His work. Not shoving my faith down anyone's throat, but telling them about Jesus Christ and letting God work from there. Whether anyone heeds my words is not important to me to the degree that I guage my success on how many converts I sire, but it is that the kingdom of God be added to, and that I above all do His will.

Why are the first borns being punished when all of them aren't the ones with the hand in the jar?

Because the innocent need take the place of the guilty. It was to demonstrate to Pharoah that such a horror arose from his disobediance to God.

Pharoah did not kill the children. God presented the bargain and carried out the punishment. Pharoah was fine with it apparently, or he didn't believe it. I don't remember. Either way, a messed up pharoah being fine with someone else killing thousands of people doesn't mean that said pharoah is responsible.

If I tell you that taking the left path in a fork in the road will lead you to untold riches for you and your loved ones, but that the right path will condemn them to torture and then death, and then you choose the right path, how is it my fault?

[rezo]

Because in the end you're the one thats giving me the gold or providing the misfortune. You are responsible for giving me gold after I went left, and you are responsible for giving me grief if I went right. I am responsible for accepting the path that will lead to gold, or will lead to grief.

Which is why I said that the pharoah was possibly fine with what god did, but it is still a thing that god had done, and therefore god is responsible for doing it. The fact that it isn't even done to the pharoah directly makes it worse. Because the people that actually recieve the gold or grief aren't even given the option of choosing which one they will accept god giving them.

Because the innocent need take the place of the guilty.

why?