Calling all Christians!

[Jester]

Goats in the agricultural society of the ancient worl were seen as objects (sorry animal rights activist) of value. The sacrifice in sacrificing these objects comes from giving up something of value to yourself to attone for your sin. The only way to totally give an item to God was to sacrifice it. The Jews sacrificed many other things besides animals. The point of the blood sacrifice of the animals from a spiritual side was addressed by the cap'n as being necessary for innocent to pay for the tyranny of sin.

God dosen't force someone to sin, He provides everything (goats, grain, free will), He is being extremely merciful in allowing sacrafice (of goats, grain, and free will) to placate Him until the messiah completes His work.

[Captain Vegetable]

edit: people ought to atone for their own mistakes.

And the glory of Jesus Christ's sacrifice is that you don't have to!

Yes, people ought to atone for their own mistakes, but if that were the case, we're all going straight to Hell...even the Christians. Jesus made it so you didn't have to.

Look at the babies as a kind of Jesus. God wanted to sacrifice His own Son much less than the sons of Egypt. It grieved Him to take the lives of the babies. How much more would it grieve Him to take the life of His own child?! The first born sons of Egypt were a price that Pharoah was not willing to pay to set the Jews free, but God the Father was more than will to sacrifice His own Son if it meant we could spend eternity with Him.

Do you see it now? Pharoah was choosing to do what it was that God had done for us, but Pharoah was grieved and angered at the outcome, and we are shocked and appauled that God would do such a thing. Then He goes and sacrifices His own Son, just like Pharoah, but He does it willingly and selflessly that we might join Him one day in Heaven!

[Saint of Killers]

Motivation is the key factor, and though God wanted His people set free, He was not offering an ultimatum. The choice was left to Pharoah. He was forced into nothing.

God knew the outcome beforehand, and is therefore responsible for the deaths.

And the glory of Jesus Christ's sacrifice is that you don't have to!

Yes, people ought to atone for their own mistakes, but if that were the case, we're all going straight to Hell...even the Christians. Jesus made it so you didn't have to.

Look at the babies as a kind of Jesus. God wanted to sacrifice His own Son much less than the sons of Egypt. It grieved Him to take the lives of the babies. How much more would it grieve Him to take the life of His own child?! The first born sons of Egypt were a price that Pharoah was not willing to pay to set the Jews free, but God the Father was more than will to sacrifice His own Son if it meant we could spend eternity with Him.

Do you see it now? Pharoah was choosing to do what it was that God had done for us, but Pharoah was grieved and angered at the outcome, and we are shocked and appauled that God would do such a thing. Then He goes and sacrifices His own Son, just like Pharoah, but He does it willingly and selflessly that we might join Him one day in Heaven!

The whole thing's just goofy. Why not just let people into heaven? There's no good reason for Jesus to even exist. God can do whatever he wants.

And besides, Jesus now sits at the right hand of his father. Not much of a sacrifice really, compared to the babies who didn't go immediately to heaven and may never see their parents in the afterlife.

[Captain Vegetable]

Or the horror of god.

But that's where you're wrong. God does not bring death into the world, but sin does. I can provide a verse if you like.

[Matt]

Let the hebrews go, or else the first born sons of Egyptians will be killed.

edit: people ought to atone for their own mistakes. In any case, I don't see how killing more people atones for anything. Just more that has to be made up for =\

In modern day terms, I suppose you could think of it like some of the Iraq war rationale - maybe we'll bomb the country to bits and kill a few thousand people, but the world will be better off later on 'cause the murderous dictator is gone.

It's entirely possible that nothing short of the massacre would have swayed the Pharaoh from his plan, but of course we don't know the fine points of Egyptian politics at that point.

[Captain Vegetable]

God knew the outcome beforehand, and is therefore responsible for the deaths.

No, man, He isn't. Foreknowlege doesn't equate to predestination. And just because He knew it was going to happen doesn't make Pharoah less responcible and God more so. God knew it was going to happen but could do nothing about it, as He isn't responcible for death. Sin is. He knew if Pharoah continued to sin that death was emminent. It was on Pharoah.

[Jester]

Well we know that egyptians enjoy slaughtering the first born children of the jews to prevent Moses from doing the work he later had to do. It is appearantly a political aspect they understand.

[Captain Vegetable]

Well we know that egyptians enjoy slaughtering the first born children of the jews to prevent Moses from doing the work he later had to do. It is appearantly a political aspect the understand.

Boom-shakka-lakka!

You da man, Jester. And thank God for you.

I don't know what time it is for you guys, but it's 2:30am here, and I have class tomorrow. Keep posting and I'll get back to you tomorrow.

Thank you Mzo, SoK, Jester, Matt, Rezo, frostwolf, and everyone else. This has been, by far, the single best discussion I've ever had on my faith. Thank you all for giving me the opportunity to share, and hearing me out though you may still disagree.

God bless, and good night,
-Jim

[Saint of Killers]

It's entirely possible that nothing short of the massacre would have swayed the Pharaoh from his plan, but of course we don't know the fine points of Egyptian politics at that point.

Again, why didn't he just kill the Pharoah? America never would've invaded Iraq if they had a clear shot at Saddam.

God knew it was going to happen but could do nothing about it

You're acting like god's hand was forced. He didn't have to give Pharoah the choice (ultimatum) in the first place. The guy can do anything he wants. I'm sure he could've found a solution that didn't involve the deaths of thousands of innocent children. I guess he's just one uncreative omniscient, omnipotent being.

[rezo]

In modern day terms, I suppose you could think of it like some of the Iraq war rationale - maybe we'll bomb the country to bits and kill a few thousand people, but the world will be better off later on 'cause the murderous dictator is gone.

This rationale doesn't apply to a god. Its based on the idea that the best option may be harsh, but a god is far more capable than humans.



capt. veg: You're question about which path to take is not analogous to the circumstances involving god and the pharoah. For instance, If I want to go to the right before you make your proposition, and I don't want my family killed,you would then be attempting to extort me into going left by putting them in danger(As god opted to put the first borns in danger in order to get pharoah to "go left")?