The Trump Presidency

[Frogacuda]

Conservatives need to go back to talking about family values. Not in a judgmental, “that’s degenerate” way, but a matter of fact, a single mother can’t raise multiple children alone, so those kids turn to gangs, way.

And that’s not the only factor, school districts need a Federally backed minimum funding, education needs to be incentivized for kids to go, meaning jobs are there when they get out, banks need incentives to invest in small business, all things that establish wealth in a community.

All that is vacant, then the public expects the cops to clean up the mess.

I don't know that conservatives ever had an interpretation of "family values" that involved investing in communities outside of their own, but I don't disagree with the rest.

[Doc Holliday]

No they haven’t, but they dropped family values when so many of them knocked up women and left. They certainly can’t do that with Trump at the helm.

The point is it’s necessary. One person can’t raise a child and work a full time job or two part time jobs And the kid come out alright. And nothing will fix that, unless, maybe doubling teacher salaries where they give kids individual attention? Hillary Clinton had that ‘It Takes a Village’ book, but the Democrat party never implemented it.

[Frogacuda]

I mean that's largely the case behind the (admittedly stupidly worded) Defund the Police charge. That if we divert funds into supporting communities we can reduce the need for a large police force.

I saw a poll that showed a net positive support of 3% for diverting resources from police into other forms of community support and emergency response, but a net negative support of 30% for Defunding the Police, despite those being the same concepts in practice. I showed this to a friend to make the point that we already have the popular support we need if we choose our words better, and he told me Defund the Police is the hashtag and there's nothing I can do about it so get with the program.

[haohmaru]

No, but if statistical trends, for example, show an increase in rapes over a period of time, and we want to discuss why that is, "People are just too rapey nowadays, and they need to stop" is not an answer. Broad trends distributed across large swaths of the population are always the product of systemic or large-scale influences. Talking about them like it's one dude is always stupid. Obviously the rapist is bad and accountable for his actions, but we aren't talking about that, we're talking about why there are more of them and what to do about it.

This is just nonsensical. Nobody is talking about crime, or anything else, as something that needs to be addressed individually. If BK says something like "don't rape if you don't want to go to jail" that isn't an individualist statement. Laws are laws and, if you obey them, you're likely to avoid incarceration. It's pretty basic advice, it doesn't address the procuring cause of the crime, but it applies to everyone - which is a pretty large group. Can you "fix" crime? I would think the basic conservative way to address this on a macro level is change the culture, encourage family structure, enhance education and opportunity, make people feel like they can succeed, educate about and discourage racism, peer pressure, single parent families within the black community, etc... There's a lot of discussion to be had here.

But this is precisely how conservatives talk about every fucking thing. Go up to any conservative and talk about the fact that social mobility has fallen 70% in the last 40 years or so, how fewer people are able to succeed and there are less opportunities. Invariably you will hear some anecdotal bullshit about how "I was able to work myself up" or "My dad came here with two cents and a dream," or "Bill Gates did it and so can you." Shit about maximizing your individual opportunity, while ignoring the systemic issues limiting the amount of opportunity distributed across the entire population. Any effort to discuss an issue affecting the population at large is regarded as if it's a personal grievance.

It's really not - and since I brought up one of the specific examples that you're referencing above, I'll have to address that. The argument I was making wasn't the social mobility hasn't regressed - it has - but that it's still possible. Don't forget that my "Dad" example was from SIXTY fucking years ago. Part of the reason I cease discussing things with you is because you're constantly acting like you're the smartest guy in the room and conservatives are "Der, Freedom, Der fuck the covid, Der White People RULE, Der gunz, etc..." - it's frustrating listening to all the condescending crap that comes from you. I'm a pretty smart guy. I don't think my Dad represents the experience of today's youth - with college debt, higher and higher training required for basic jobs, no affordable housing in certain markets, etc... I also think a lot of these problems are magnified exponentially in blue states that have preposterous property, income, and sales taxes that tax their people to death, cause them to go further into debt then they can ever hope to repay, and make starting out damn near impossible. And, honestly, I'm not even a conservative - I want universal healthcare, I'm pro choice, I want certain police reforms, I want strict standards to purchase firearms, etc..

Let's talk about solutions instead of bullshit labeling entire swaths of people. Because I'm sick to death of that bullshit too - by both "sides".

I know you know exactly what I'm talking about, I see this literally every single day.

And every single day I see leftist/liberals acting like they're smarter/better than everyone else and those that have other solutions, or dissenting ideas, are morons or not to be listened to. The hypocrisy of the left is astounding - look at all the criticism levied at those that were protesting about their individual rights, their right(s) to open their small business which is closed while Wal Mart is open, the right to go outside and fucking fish for crying out loud and the left was all over them about recklessness, selfishness, OMG HOW COULD THEY, and on, and on, and, now, when the protest is different, their silence is deafening. Not a fucking peep about it as cases spike all over the place where mass protesting occurred.

The truth is that I'm sick to death of both political parties and their bullshit. They represent themselves and their career political interests and not much else.

[BonusKun]

I was going to post my thoughts to you frog but I think Haohmaru nailed pretty much what I wanted to say.

[Frogacuda]

It's really not - and since I brought up one of the specific examples that you're referencing above, I'll have to address that. The argument I was making wasn't the social mobility hasn't regressed - it has - but that it's still possible.

If someone says that social mobility has fallen 70%, and not 100%, then they have already said that it still happens and told you exactly how often. How would it possibly be relevant or helpful to the discussion to point that out? It speaks to a kind of disconnect in the way we talk about things at the very least. It feels like abdicating yourself from the conversation I am trying to have with you with a condescending nonsequitur that adds nothing. That's kind of my point. But to be clear, I wasn't picking a fight with you in particular, I see people do this exact thing every single day.

I don't think conservatives are all stupid (or that progressives are all smart). And I'm being pithy and sarcastic here and not writing a real thesis, but there's TONS and TONS to support the notion that in America the Conservative/Liberal divide is more about individualism versus collectivism and there's often a failure (on both sides) to understand which kinds of problems each thing can solve.

Posturing about debts and spending, for example -- conservatives actually don't care about this at all. Every Republican president post WWII has rasied the deficit. They like big government and big military budgets. But they hate entitlements, often even basic things liked education. It's not the money, it's the idea that the people receiving those entitlements aren't deserving individuals.

It's the same reason there's a huge correlation between population density and political affiliation. When you live close to other people you see things in more collective terms. When you're further apart, you see individuals. It's the defining feature of this cultural divide. I could go on and on about this but I don't think anyone gives a shit.

[Melf]

Neither party represents what they pretend to. Republicans haven't been about family values, small government, or fiscal responsibility in decades. Democrats are anything BUT liberal and try to stomp out anyone who tries to be. It's the reason why this country is the partisan shitshow it is and why we're now pitied by the rest of the world.

[Doc Holliday]

I’m just happy Frog & I could have a constructive conversation on a politics.

In other news, I’ve seen this meme passed around by lefties and it’s killing me not to say anything, because I’m 100% convinced a right-wing troll made this meme comparing BLM activists to the Plastics.

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[Frogacuda]

Neither party represents what they pretend to. Republicans haven't been about family values, small government, or fiscal responsibility in decades. Democrats are anything BUT liberal and try to stomp out anyone who tries to be. It's the reason why this country is the partisan shitshow it is and why we're now pitied by the rest of the world.

There's a huge schism in the left that is basically allowing the right to do whatever they want.

And both sides of that are kind of a shit show. Neoliberals just want to fight for the status quo, and basically actively work against the progressive left, often harder than they work against the right.

The progressive left is also a mess though, because they completely reject any notion of tact, moderation, or even basic salesmanship. They resent the neoliberals and centrists to such an extent that they think they don't need their votes. They often have the right idea but they have no interest in actually selling them. Like my earlier comment where "Defund the Police" is chosen as an intentionally polarizing and unpalatable way to frame it's idea to "get attention" for something that already has popular support. It's maddening how they snatch defeat from the jaws of vitory every time.

And it's increasingly become a sphere where criticism is the only valid form of discourse, and it becomes a kind of currency. Any criticism is valid and any pushback is oppression. And so there's never anyone you can get behind. I used to post on Resetera until I got banned for saying I don't think Bernie Sanders is racist. That's kind of the far left in a nutshell.

[kedawa]

Why, it's almost as if two political parties are insufficient.