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Thread: The Trump Presidency

  1. It’s pretty efficient at getting the most votes with the least effort.
    "Question the world man... I know the meaning of everything right now... it's like I can touch god." - bbobb the ggreatt

  2. Quote Originally Posted by Frogacuda View Post
    If someone says that social mobility has fallen 70%, and not 100%, then they have already said that it still happens and told you exactly how often. How would it possibly be relevant or helpful to the discussion to point that out? It speaks to a kind of disconnect in the way we talk about things at the very least. It feels like abdicating yourself from the conversation I am trying to have with you with a condescending nonsequitur that adds nothing. That's kind of my point. But to be clear, I wasn't picking a fight with you in particular, I see people do this exact thing every single day.
    I'm really not sure what the point is, above, at all. Whatever you're trying to say it's pretty unclear to me.

    "A large academic study released in 2014 found US mobility overall has not changed appreciably in the last 25 years (for children born between 1971 and 1996), but a variety of up and down mobility changes were found in several different parts of the country. On average, American children entering the labor market today have the same chances of moving up in the income distribution (relative to their parents) as children born in the 1970s." - wiki

    Quote Originally Posted by Frogacuda View Post
    I don't think conservatives are all stupid (or that progressives are all smart). And I'm being pithy and sarcastic here and not writing a real thesis, but there's TONS and TONS to support the notion that in America the Conservative/Liberal divide is more about individualism versus collectivism and there's often a failure (on both sides) to understand which kinds of problems each thing can solve.
    The United States was founded on invividually inalienable human rights. If that's a starting point for conservatives then so be it. It doesn't mean that they don't understand the needs for government and the collective. If we forget that starting point then we run the risk of losing the basis of our founding. Socialism is complicated - and more complicated because the species that it serves, humanity, is inherently lazy. It's hard to make it work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frogacuda View Post
    Posturing about debts and spending, for example -- conservatives actually don't care about this at all. Every Republican president post WWII has rasied the deficit. They like big government and big military budgets. But they hate entitlements, often even basic things liked education. It's not the money, it's the idea that the people receiving those entitlements aren't deserving individuals.
    The last President to have a surplus was George W. Bush in 2001 (https://datalab.usaspending.gov/amer...eficit/trends/). The truth is that the government, on either side, could give a fuck about being responsible and balanced like the rest of us have to be. They want to spend money on different things and do so without responsibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frogacuda View Post
    It's the same reason there's a huge correlation between population density and political affiliation. When you live close to other people you see things in more collective terms. When you're further apart, you see individuals. It's the defining feature of this cultural divide. I could go on and on about this but I don't think anyone gives a shit.
    I get that - but how is "the collective" approach doing in those population centers? NY is in huge trouble. NJ is in huge trouble. CA is in huge trouble. IL is in huge trouble. These are all "blue" states that have spending troubles and left leadership. I don't disagree with a lot of things that the left would like - I just don't see a way to pay for it all and all of those examples, above, can't pay for it either.

  3. Last edited by Doc Holliday; 14 Jun 2020 at 01:51 AM.
    "Question the world man... I know the meaning of everything right now... it's like I can touch god." - bbobb the ggreatt

  4. The article makes it sound like he gave them little recourse.

  5. How many incidents could be avoided if people just followed the cops directions instead of resisting arrest?

  6. I didn't realize that resisting arrest was a crime worthy of death without a trial.
    Why are you reading this? go to your general settings and uncheck the Show Signatures box already!

  7. We have to prepare the public for communist rule.


    Edit: additional footage:

    Wendy’s cam


    Body cam 1


    Body cam 2
    Last edited by Doc Holliday; 14 Jun 2020 at 12:17 PM.
    "Question the world man... I know the meaning of everything right now... it's like I can touch god." - bbobb the ggreatt

  8. Quote Originally Posted by Dunlap View Post
    I didn't realize that resisting arrest was a crime worthy of death without a trial.

    Yes, that's what I said. Idiot.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by haohmaru
    Can you "fix" crime? I would think the basic conservative way to address this on a macro level is change the culture, encourage family structure, enhance education and opportunity, make people feel like they can succeed, educate about and discourage racism, peer pressure, single parent families within the black community, etc... There's a lot of discussion to be had here.
    That... doesn't sound like the way conservatives generally try to address the issue at all. Maybe in a paternalistic, hands-off "it sure would be nice if the black community could work those things out" sort of way. But policy-wise and through their actual involvement that all couldn't be further from conservatives' history of minority engagement.

    Change the culture - The best way to do this is to foster and welcome community diversity among races. NIMBYism certainly exists in whites of either party, but I sincerely doubt most minorities would say they feel welcomed moving into heavily conservative white neighborhoods in particular.

    Encourage family structure - Family structure breaks down when parents go to jail for for extended periods for small infractions. Conservatives only recently made steps in the right direction on this when the white community was feeling the pain due to the opioid epidemic... but if that was a black community problem, historically, their answer would undoubtedly have been more and steeper jail sentences. As the opioid problem winds down and fades into the background, expect them to go right back to the old ways of encouraging maximum punishment for societal ills that don't affect their community personally.

    Enhance education and opportunity - The only proper response I can muster for the implication that conservatives have shown, through action, that they care about better funding for troubled schools is a long belly laugh.

    Make people feel like they can succeed - Conservatives perhaps have the mindset that anyone can succeed in that whole "I'm not poor, I'm just a temporarily embarrassed millionaire" vein, but that falls decidedly more under wishful thinking than self-actualization. Most poor people of any party fail the conservative fitness test of pulling themselves up by their bootstraps.

    Educate about and discourage racism - Many major conservative politicians can't even manage a full-throated rebuke of outright white supremacist rallies in the Trump era. Not only are conservatives not making good progress on this, they've made negative progress.

    Peer pressure - The first lady has a campaign against bullying that has barely seems to actually exist and flies in the face of everything the man she's married to does. About sums it up.

    Single parent families in the black community - Divorce rates are decidedly worse in red states, so this is kind of a 'get your own house in order' thing to browbeat over. And again, the high incarceration rates and lack of quality education that conservative policy tends to encourage are a sizable factor with single parenthood among minorities.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by Bacon McShig View Post

    Change the culture - The best way to do this is to foster and welcome community diversity among races. NIMBYism certainly exists in whites of either party, but I sincerely doubt most minorities would say they feel welcomed moving into heavily conservative white neighborhoods in particular.
    How "welcomed" would I feel moving into the Bronx? I mean, I get what you're saying, but this shoe fits the same on different feet. Until we can look past race, and political group labeling, I don't see how this is going to happen. As far as I'm concerned, there shouldn't be a "race" box on any job application. It shouldn't matter. I wish that's where we were at.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon McShig View Post
    Encourage family structure - Family structure breaks down when parents go to jail for for extended periods for small infractions. Conservatives only recently made steps in the right direction on this when the white community was feeling the pain due to the opioid epidemic... but if that was a black community problem, historically, their answer would undoubtedly have been more and steeper jail sentences. As the opioid problem winds down and fades into the background, expect them to go right back to the old ways of encouraging maximum punishment for societal ills that don't affect their community personally.
    Prison reform was passed within this administration - who I really don't want to defend. 91% of those resentenced under the First Step Act were black, so I'm not sure how this benefitted the "white" community and their drug problem(s). https://www.sentencingproject.org/pu...irst-step-act/


    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon McShig View Post
    Enhance education and opportunity - The only proper response I can muster for the implication that conservatives have shown, through action, that they care about better funding for troubled schools is a long belly laugh.
    We spend more per student than any country in the world. Maybe the system is the problem because is sure isn't money.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon McShig View Post
    Make people feel like they can succeed - Conservatives perhaps have the mindset that anyone can succeed in that whole "I'm not poor, I'm just a temporarily embarrassed millionaire" vein, but that falls decidedly more under wishful thinking than self-actualization. Most poor people of any party fail the conservative fitness test of pulling themselves up by their bootstraps.
    I can't argue that - but this circles back around to culture, education, strong families and possibly faith.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon McShig View Post
    Educate about and discourage racism - Many major conservative politicians can't even manage a full-throated rebuke of outright white supremacist rallies in the Trump era. Not only are conservatives not making good progress on this, they've made negative progress.
    I'm not going to get into this argument but I haven't seen anyone defending "white supremacist rallies" and I've seen plenty of Republicans and Democrats denouncing them - including Trump. Race baiting was something Obama didn't have a problem with and used without apology. I think Trump says a lot of stupid things but I don't think he's a racist - and neither did anyone else until he became a Republican President. I didn't vote for him and I don't plan on voting for him in 2020 - but that doesn't mean that a career politician, like Biden, who has clearly lost his marbles and accomplished pretty much nothing in 40+ years in Washington is some great alternative. It's positively frustrating that this is the "best" that we can do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon McShig View Post
    Peer pressure - The first lady has a campaign against bullying that has barely seems to actually exist and flies in the face of everything the man she's married to does. About sums it up.
    Can't argue that at all

    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon McShig View Post
    Single parent families in the black community - Divorce rates are decidedly worse in red states, so this is kind of a 'get your own house in order' thing to browbeat over. And again, the high incarceration rates and lack of quality education that conservative policy tends to encourage are a sizable factor with single parenthood among minorities.
    Democrats are less likely to get married and less likely to be happily married.

    https://www.politico.com/magazine/st...-values-215873

    https://ifstudies.org/blog/a-red-fam...-blue-america/

    Part of the problem with education in this country is we continue to throw money at the problem instead of fixing it - and this goes from Kindergarten to post graduate education.

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