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Thread: The Last of Us Part II (PS4)

  1. Quote Originally Posted by gamevet View Post
    I don't see the 1st game as being anything like that at all. Killing was about surviving, and the narrative was about 2 characters bonding and building trust.
    Some of it, and those elements are in the sequel too, it isn't as if it doesn't have its lighthearted moments and character development. But at the end of the day they're dark and nihilistic games.

  2. Quote Originally Posted by Frogacuda View Post
    Except literally the entire game was Joel and Ellie putting their lives on the line because the cure was more important than their lives. Ellie wasn't given the choice in that moment but she had already made it. And Joel knew that. And that's why he lied.


    If you mean the thing she does in the first act then yeah, no shit. It's literally the only one of her flashbacksthat even pertains to it. Do you think the only purpose of all of Abby's sections is to explain her initial motive?

    The rest is about giving her a growth arc in the aftermath of the event, to show how she's a different person by the time they meet again and not just this Macguffin for Ellie's revenge plot. It also serves to humanize supporting characters like Mel, Owen, and Nora, so we have to question Ellie's actions.


    Such as? What would you do that would make those moments land harder without taking away from the intent and themes?
    Insert a conversation at the end between 2 people where Ellie actually understands why Abby did what she did. And vice versa.

    Scream at each other. Ellie: you have no idea what that man did and gave up for me.
    Abby: you have no idea what he did. Bob lob law.

    In 1, the fireflies had no idea what Joel's backstory was and that worked because they arent a main character and if they knew they would not have told him the plan.

    We know why it's personal to each, do they? Seems like that would illicite some change in a character.

    Change the flashback to some instance where Joel talks about an actual lesson of forgiveness or letting go or better yet, play 1 level with that theme. Have them track someone who did bad shit in jackson, play as joel and have him let them go because he realizes it's not worth it. Maybe they have suffered enough and it's time to let go.

    Replace the Museum level with that. So the player can see why a character has the motivations and changes they have. Rather than, what was the takeaway of the flashback in the game? I will try to forgive you. Expand on that so it's shown and not just stated, which is what good characterization does.

    It's clear why joel makes the choice he does at the end of the first game. Not so much why Ellie has whatever change she has.

    Some people here seem to think fireflies good and joel bad. Neither are true. Nor are the WLF or Scars. They are all murderers.

    I buy motivations for both characters. Unnecessary as having both was. I can even buy Abby's change.

    Ellies epiphany? Not so much.

    Personally, i would scrap half of the story and retool it to make r = still. Seems like a lot of more effective ways to do it.

  3. Quote Originally Posted by MVS View Post
    Insert a conversation at the end between 2 people where Ellie actually understands why Abby did what she did. And vice versa.

    Scream at each other. Ellie: you have no idea what that man did and gave up for me.
    Abby: you have no idea what he did. Bob lob law.
    So, like, a really cringey, on-the-nose scene, where they directly talk about all the stuff they have already grappled with explicitly and extensively, where we all pretend like this is still really a conflict between Ellie and Abby and not Ellie wrestling with her own emotions, even though Abby checked out of the whole thing literally like a year and a half ago?

    Who would that scene be for? If anything that undermines the character development, making it about the really surface level shit that didn't need to be amplified anyway.
    Change the flashback to some instance where Joel talks about an actual lesson of forgiveness or letting go or better yet, play 1 level with that theme. Have them track someone who did bad shit in jackson, play as joel and have him let them go because he realizes it's not worth it. Maybe they have suffered enough and it's time to let go.
    So have Joel act completely out of character in order to spell out already obvious narrative themes at the expensive of the player's emotional journey in the front half. Okay, taking notes...

    It's clear why joel makes the choice he does at the end of the first game. Not so much why Ellie has whatever change she has.
    Ellie is conflicted for the entire third act of the story. At one point it's genuinely unclear if she wants to rescue Abby or kill her. What happens in that moment isn't so much a change, it's a side winning.

    Some people here seem to think fireflies good and joel bad. Neither are true. Nor are the WLF or Scars. They are all murderers.
    That is the core theme of the game, yes.

    I buy motivations for both characters. Unnecessary as having both was. I can even buy Abby's change.

    Ellies epiphany? Not so much.
    Because it isn't an epiphany, it's letting go. She's been waging an internal war with herself since the theater. It isn't sudden, it's the culmination of everything that's happened in the story thus far. It's completely earned as a story beat, just as Joel's heel-turn at the end of the first game was not just about that moment but everything leading up to it.

    There's a reason it ends with that scene of her and Joel at the end. That scene is about forgiveness, about letting go of anger, even righteous anger, because it hurts us as much as it does others.
    Last edited by Frogacuda; 10 Jul 2020 at 04:45 PM.

  4. Quote Originally Posted by MVS View Post
    Change the flashback to some instance where Joel talks about an actual lesson of forgiveness or letting go or better yet, play 1 level with that theme. Have them track someone who did bad shit in jackson, play as joel and have him let them go because he realizes it's not worth it. Maybe they have suffered enough and it's time to let go.
    One of the brilliant ways the game handles exposition and character development is that very few scenes need to be handled explicitly like this, because of the way it gets seamlessly woven into the narrative.

    The themes of empathy and forgiveness are explored in the first hour of the game.

    Think back to the first scene in Jackson, with Seth (the bigot). This is the night after the dance. Maria makes Seth apologize for calling her a dyke. He does, and offers her some steak sandwiches. Ellie refuses his apology and gives the sandwiches to Jesse.

    Later, when we play as Abby, we find an old letter left behind by Seth when he was fleeing San Francisco from the infected, in search of shelter in Jackson. He is near death and his sons are dying.

    Empathy and forgiveness.
    Last edited by sleeve; 10 Jul 2020 at 07:05 PM.
    The spirit of liberty is the spirit which is not too sure it is always right. -Learned Hand

    "Jesus christ you are still THE WORST." -FirstBlood

  5. Quote Originally Posted by Frogacuda View Post
    So, like, a really cringey, on-the-nose scene, where they directly talk about all the stuff they have already grappled with explicitly and extensively, where we all pretend like this is still really a conflict between Ellie and Abby and not Ellie wrestling with her own emotions, even though Abby checked out of the whole thing literally like a year and a half ago?

    Who would that scene be for? If anything that undermines the character development, making it about the really surface level shit that didn't need to be amplified anyway.

    So have Joel act completely out of character in order to spell out already obvious narrative themes at the expensive of the player's emotional journey in the front half. Okay, taking notes...


    Ellie is conflicted for the entire third act of the story. At one point it's genuinely unclear if she wants to rescue Abby or kill her. What happens in that moment isn't so much a change, it's a side winning.


    That is the core theme of the game, yes.


    Because it isn't an epiphany, it's letting go. She's been waging an internal war with herself since the theater. It isn't sudden, it's the culmination of everything that's happened in the story thus far. It's completely earned as a story beat, just as Joel's heel-turn at the end of the first game was not just about that moment but everything leading up to it.

    There's a reason it ends with that scene of her and Joel at the end. That scene is about forgiveness, about letting go of anger, even righteous anger, because it hurts us as much as it does others.
    Why are you asking me my opinion just to try and piss on it?

  6. Quote Originally Posted by sleeve View Post
    One of the brilliant ways the game handles exposition and character development is that very few scenes need to be handled explicitly like this, because of the way it gets seamlessly woven into the narrative.

    The themes of empathy and forgiveness are explored in the first hour of the game.

    Think back to the first scene in Jackson, with Seth (the bigot). This is the night after the dance. Maria makes Seth apologize for calling her a dyke. He does, and offers her some steak sandwiches. Ellie refuses his apology and gives the sandwiches to Jesse.

    Later, when we play as Abby, we find an old letter left behind by Seth when he was fleeing San Francisco from the infected, in search of shelter in Jackson. He is near death and his sons are dying.

    Empathy and forgiveness.
    Some would be better story wise if they were.

    I would prefer a better, different flashback rather than a level, but I am trying to make a double double out of a McDonald's hamburger here.

  7. Quote Originally Posted by MVS View Post
    Why are you asking me my opinion just to try and piss on it?
    I didn't ask your opinion to piss on it, but you seem to be asking for little more than for them to dumb it down and explain stuff that is already pretty clear. That's not good storytelling.

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